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Originally posted by kevin1122:
Weather or not “evil” is a noun or not is not the point; the point is, evil does not have a physical existence. It is mearly a word used do describe something (a person, place, or thing) that has such an existence. The same can’t be said for temperature and light.

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“Under my philosophy (if u can call it that), evil is a human quality that flows from the improper application of our God-given free will. God gave us free will, and he made us imperfect. Therefore we are capable of misusing our free will. The malevolent misuse of free will constitutes evil. Evil exists as a human trait.

To suggest that "evil exists where god does not" suggests that somehow God forces us to do the right thing. God does not do that.”.

I guess that would all depend upon which concept of God one believes in. The concepts I am familiar with; such as the ones described in the Koran, Bible, or the Torah, this God does use force.
If depending upon your actions while living, punishment or reward awaits you upon death, by definition; that is not free will.

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“Obviously it doesn't have a physical existence, but I guess we have a difference in our understanding of what "existence" is. I don't subscribe to the idea that something has to have a physical existence in order to "exist."”

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“I don't know if I agree with that last part. You're saying that free will is not really free will if perceived consequences influence your decision on how to exercise it.”

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“I thought you said whether it's a "noun" or not is beside the point? A noun is a grammatical part of speech; it's a word that denotes something that can be the subject or object of a verb. In the very question, "Does evil exist?" you can see that evil is used as a noun there. That would end that question.”

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“I don't think I understand your point here. I define "free will" as the capacity to make decisions on how to act or what to do, within a certain situation. ”

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“That does not "come from you," it comes from nature. If you believe in God, you believe that if it's conferred by nature, it's conferred by God. But if you don't believe in God, you still believe that it's a capacity naturally conferred by nature upon the human brain.”

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Originally posted by kresge:

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Originally posted by BLACK GODDESS:
Yes evil does exist in the hearts and minds actions and mannerisms of any and everyone who accepts this ancient unrighteous artform...

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Originally posted by BLACK GODDESS:
@ kresge and HonestBrother

???

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“First of all, in response to my definition, you already said, "I also define 'free will' that way," so any attempt to challenge me as being wrong now is going to be FOS from you. So on that point alone, you need to withdraw your question...”

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“Secondly, you stated that your definition "also" provides that "free will can not come from the one who attaches consequences to the decisions you make." You This is how you claimed your dictionary defined free will. Based on the fact that you now say you got that definition from dictionary.com, you're saying that dictionary.com has in its definition this idea, that "free will can not come from the one who attaches consequences to the decisions you make."

Evidently, you must have dictionary.com: The Deluxe Edition, because the one my cheap internet connection leads me to says nothing about "the one who attaches consequences." Dictionary.com defines "free will" as:

1. free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will.
2. Philosophy. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.”

Vox

　"

Compliance with the mugger's demands requires a response other than the instinctive fight-or-flight response common among animals who lack that ability to choose."

Actually animals DO have the ability to choose. When an animal is being attacked; that fight-or-flight response is a choice; a freewill decision the animal makes if he should face his attacker or run for his life.

K

Ebonyrose

"

Not necessarily. Some animals instinctively fight back when they are attacked, driven by a desire for self-preservation. Many animals will not choose to run away ... as there is, by default, no such choice to be made."

Well this animal that acts stricly on instinct is probably one that I am not familiar with so I'm just gonna take your word on it. Let me put it this way; there are some animals that do have free will and do make choices such as the ones I mentioned.

Kevin

Evil certainly does exist and the biblical god, Yahweh is an embodiment of evil. At least so says the bible itself:

"And the lord repented of evil" - 2 Sam 24:16

What was the evil Yahweh perpetrated that provoked this revealing statement? Yahweh massacred 70,000 innocent people because King David committed the heinous crime of conducting a census (2 Sam 24:15).


That's not all, the evil Yahweh ordered Jews to ethnically cleanse and exterminate the Cannaanites:

"In the cities of the nations the lord your God gives you as inheritance, do not leave anything that breathes. Completely destroy the Hittites, Canaanites, Perizites, Hivites and Jebusites as your lord commands"  - Deut 20:16 -17

He turned “his people” (Jews) into cannibals and made them eat their children:

"Therefore in your midst fathers will eat their children, and children will eat their fathers" - Ezekiel 5:10

"With their own hands compassionate women have cooked their own children, who became their food when my people were destroyed" - Lam 4:10

The bloodthirsty Judeo-Christian quasi-deity even demands human sacrifice:

"You must give me (Yahweh) the first born of your sons. Do the same with your cattle and sheep" - Exodus 22:29-30

"I (Yahweh) gave them laws that were not good, and laws they could not live by, and I defiled them through their very gifts - the sacrifice of every first born - that I might fill them with horror, so that they would know that I am the lord" - Ezekiel 20:25-26.

In Amos 3:6, Yahweh even admits to being responsible for human suffering and calamities. Need I go on, or has the point being clearly made that Yahweh is evil?

EbonyRose:

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So lemme see if I'm understanding you correctly, Kevin ...

In your youth, you were taught untruths through Christian lessons via the Bible ... and when you found out that what they (whoever "they" are) were teaching you wasn't true, you decided that God didn't really exist?"

(reply)
Kinda sorta..... lemme put it this way; When I read the bible for myself (rather than the parts everybody points to me to read) I noticed contridictions in the bible when compared to what I was taught about God; and when I asked those who were more experienced in christianity than I was (kinda like Neocarl is doing now) I was made to feel ashamed to even ask such questions. When my questions weren't answered it caused my faith to become "shaken" and after about 5 years of constantly having my faith shaken, I questioned my religion and became agnostic (atheism was too harsh to admit even to myself at that time). after about 5 years of claiming I was agnostic, I was finally ready to admit I no longer believed in God.

For me going from Christian to Atheist was never an overnight thing, it was gradual over a 10 yr period. True I did consider maybe some other religion could be correct, but who has time to search them all? I have always maintained that if God does exist and he makes his presence known to me in a way that I could recognize, I would accept his existence; but until then I will continue to not believe in that which I can't experience.

Neocarl

"

It is interesting to note that in the Job story, God initiates this mess that Job has to go through. All Satan did in the beginning was show up and God is the one who brings up Job."

(reply)
Good point! Here is the problem I had with Job when I was christian;

*Satan knows God knows everything

*Satan knows God only speaks the truth

So all God has to do is tell Satan "Even if I were to allow you to have your way with Job, you would not be able to shake his faith".

If God were to tell Satan this, Satan would know this was the truth and the conversation would be over; right? That's what I would do if I were God, but instead God takes this challenge which basically results in pissing contest between the two of them, which results in the death of Job's innocent children. I always had a problem with that.

Anyway let's see how your questions are answered

Kevin

Ebonyrose:

perhaps instead of deciding not to believe in God, you could have chosen to not believe in those people that wouldn't tell you the truth, or in the Bible, or in the religion of Christianity itself.

(reply)
I think the people meant well, they told me what they believed was the truth; but simply didn't know how to handle it when confronted with questions they were unable to answer.

(quote)

It seems to me that although God wasn't the one who deceived you (and probably the only one, at that) .. He's the one you chose to give the pink slip to, nonetheless.

(reply)
The reason I gave God the "pink slip" as you call it; (along with Christianity, the Bible, and those who told me about God) is because the only reason I believed in God in the first place was because they told me so. I never experienced the existence of God, I was never given any emprical evidence that God even existed; my entire belief in God was based upon what they told me; I simply took their word for it.

When I found out their words concerning Christianity was untrue, I had no reason to assume their words concerning God was true.

Personally I feel if I were ever to believe in God again it would have to be because this God presented evidence of his existence to me in a way that I can recognize. Of course I ain't holdin my breath waitin for it to happen, if this God (assuming he exists) choose to remain hidden from me when I spent all those years searching for him, why would he choose to come out of hiding now that I no longer believe? That wouldn't make sense to me.
Anyway, just thought I'd share that with ya

Peace

Kevin