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Forgiveness
 
ma'am offline
A1 · 2279 Forum Posts
 October 3, 2007 3:39 PM
Do you think that Christianity teaches that forgiveness between brethern is supposed to be conditional or unconditional?

Is it a sin not to forgive a brother in Christ even when there has been no repentance, or is the remorse a requirement?

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Replies: 46
 
kresge offline
A1 · 4297 Forum Posts
October 3, 2007 at 10:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by ma'am:
Do you think that Christianity teaches that forgiveness between brethern is supposed to be conditional or unconditional?

Is it a sin not to forgive a brother in Christ even when there has been no repentance, or is the remorse a requirement?

1. unconditional
2. yes (see 1)- remorse/repentance on another's part has no bearing on a Christian's 'obligation' to forgive.
Yemaya offline
A1 · 2754 Forum Posts
October 4, 2007 at 5:07 AM
Forgiveness is supposed to be good for people. There is this thing about forgiving and forgeting. Some people teach that God forgives and forgets and we are striving to be more like God. At the same turn some people are teaching forgive, but don't forget. What is your take on that? Does forgiveness encompass both forgetting and forgiving??
Mr. Muhammad offline
C3 · 77 Forum Posts
October 5, 2007 at 3:11 PM
Everything that we experience is recorded in the Mind, and therefor we cannot "forget" it...except through the deterioration of neuro-association in the brain that represents that experience. Additionally, to consciously "forget" something is a bit of a paradox...lol.

But to FORGIVE is another matter. Most people are too ego-driven to Forgive without a process of atonement and reconciliation. It is only the more spiritually awakened one's who are able to forgive because they see the root of the person who committed the offense, and understands the root reason they committed the offense.

How many of us, if we were in a situation like the one described in the Bible..."on the cross"...could actually look upon our tormentors and ask GOD to forgive them...which means that we had already forgiven them?

How many of us could do that?

Heck..some of us can't even forgive our own Family members because they ate the last "Pop Tart"...lol

RM
Kweli4Real offline
A1 · 8600 Forum Posts
October 5, 2007 at 4:29 PM
Okay ... Here is my [atheistic(?)/agnostic(?)] take on forgiveness and where I think most "religious" folk get it [and daresay I, their religion] wrong ...

Yes, it is a sin [if one believes in the concept of sin] or wrong [if not] to withhold or condition forgiveness on anything outside of oneself. To do otherwise is missing the point of forgiveness.

Forgiveness, like religion, is not about the other person and what the other person does [or doesn't do] ... it is about you and your healing. One can not move beyond a hurt or wrong until you put it down, so that you can move on. Just as one cannot move forward in their spirituality until they realize that their religion is about them being all they can be, not about what others do [or don't do].
ma'am offline
A1 · 2279 Forum Posts
October 7, 2007 at 9:48 PM
quote:
Originally posted by kresge:
quote:
Originally posted by ma'am:
Do you think that Christianity teaches that forgiveness between brethern is supposed to be conditional or unconditional?

Is it a sin not to forgive a brother in Christ even when there has been no repentance, or is the remorse a requirement?

1. unconditional
2. yes (see 1)- remorse/repentance on another's part has no bearing on a Christian's 'obligation' to forgive.


That's what I got from the book, but debating this topic with someone with another POV stumped me.

She said that if the sinner knows he is wrong, Christ only fully forgives after repentance. A believer should be Christ-like. Forgiveness between brethren ought to be condition.
kresge offline
A1 · 4297 Forum Posts
October 8, 2007 at 6:57 AM
quote:
Originally posted by ma'am:
quote:
Originally posted by kresge:
quote:
Originally posted by ma'am:
Do you think that Christianity teaches that forgiveness between brethern is supposed to be conditional or unconditional?

Is it a sin not to forgive a brother in Christ even when there has been no repentance, or is the remorse a requirement?


1. unconditional
2. yes (see 1)- remorse/repentance on another's part has no bearing on a Christian's 'obligation' to forgive.


That's what I got from the book, but debating this topic with someone with another POV stumped me.

She said that if the sinner knows he is wrong, Christ only fully forgives after repentance. A believer should be Christ-like. Forgiveness between brethren ought to be condition.

http://www.believers.org/believe/bel139.htm
I_am_Mahogany offline
A1 · 571 Forum Posts
October 8, 2007 at 7:37 AM
quote:
Originally posted by ma'am:
Do you think that Christianity teaches that forgiveness between brethern is supposed to be conditional or unconditional?

Is it a sin not to forgive a brother in Christ even when there has been no repentance, or is the remorse a requirement?


I think that Christianity teaches us that forgiveness is unconditional and the act of not forgiving is a sin, but I don't think a lot of people including Christians get that. Most people use forgiveness a bargaining tool. It usually comes with conditions. And also, you can forgive someone regardless of their attitude. I forgive people whether they ask me to or not. For me, to forgive doesn't mean that I forget. But it does allow me to heal and move on.
Mr. Muhammad offline
C3 · 77 Forum Posts
October 8, 2007 at 8:25 AM
There are circumstances when forgiveness is conditional.

According to the Bible, God, Himself, puts conditions on His Forgiveness:

"IF my people, which are called by my name, will humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways,
THEN will I hear from Heaven, and FORGIVE their sin, and heal their land."

"IF" is a condition.

God would not expect from us that which He is not willing to do, Himself.

It depends on the situation...the seriousness of the offense.

The "truest" forgiveness comes as a result of a Process of Atonement, or At-one-ment:

1. Someone must point out the wrong

2. Acknowledgment of the wrong

3. Confess the fault; first to God, then to those offended

4. Repentance; a feeling of remorse or contrition or shame for the past conduct which was wrong and sinful

5. Atonement; meaning to make amends and reparations for the wrong

6. Forgiveness by the offended party; to cease to feel offense and resentment against another for the harm done

7. Reconciliation and restoration; meaning to become friendly and peaceable again

8. Perfect union with God

http://www.millionfamilymarch.com/agenda/section1.htm


RM
Vox offline
A1 · 4805 Forum Posts
October 8, 2007 at 8:49 AM
What exactly is forgiveness, though, as contemplated by Christianity? I never got the impression that God is asking you to trust someone who violated your trust, if they haven't atoned for that violation. If someone has committed a transgression against you, are you supposed to proceed without setting up some kind of safeguard against the same person doing the exact same thing? Or is forgiveness simply the letting go of ill feelings, and the refusal to harbor any ill will toward the person?
kresge offline
A1 · 4297 Forum Posts
October 8, 2007 at 9:01 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
What exactly is forgiveness, though, as contemplated by Christianity? I never got the impression that God is asking you to trust someone who violated your trust, if they haven't atoned for that violation. If someone has committed a transgression against you, are you supposed to proceed without setting up some kind of safeguard against the same person doing the exact same thing?

You are correct.
quote:
Or is forgiveness simply the letting go of ill feelings, and the refusal to harbor any ill will toward the person?

Exactly. This is how I understand forgiveness. Forgiveness is about letting go of ill feelings or will toward another person. It definitely does not mean to put yourself in harms way. Thus, if you are in an abusive relationship, forgiveness does not mean that you remain in the situation. Forgiveness is about moving on and not living in the past. It is an openness and receptivity to God's grace and healing and even wishing for this grace and healing to be extended to the person who has wronged you.
Mr. Muhammad offline
C3 · 77 Forum Posts
October 8, 2007 at 9:05 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
What exactly is forgiveness, though, as contemplated by Christianity? I never got the impression that God is asking you to trust someone who violated your trust, if they haven't atoned for that violation. If someone has committed a transgression against you, are you supposed to proceed without setting up some kind of safeguard against the same person doing the exact same thing? Or is forgiveness simply the letting go of ill feelings, and the refusal to harbor any ill will toward the person?


Good Questions...

As I mentioned earlier, I think it takes an unusual degree of insight into, and Love for, the Basic Essence and Nature of the Human Being to forgive someone "unconditionally". In my whole life, I may have met two or three persons like that; but most of us need a process of some sort to help facilitate forgiveness...even if it's just talking with the person who offended us to get some understanding.

Here's the touchy part:

Historically, the slave master used certain parts of the doctrine of "Christianity" to psychologically disarm us of any inclination to resist or retaliate against their brutality.

Passages like, "Love your enemies" and "turn the other cheek", and forgiving "seventy times seven"; these and other passages were used to make us more tolerant of the evil that we were suffering at their hands.

They had our ancestors in bondage for 310 years before they would allow them to read; but by then, our minds were already warped by the oppression and poison of white supremacy under the guise of religion.

Unfortunately, many of our people are still infected with that same warped idea that we must tolerate oppression, and forgive the oppressor, to please God.

Many are waking up, however...with many more to follow.

RM
Khalliqa offline
A1 · 7901 Forum Posts
October 8, 2007 at 9:09 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Muhammad:
but most of us need a process of some sort to help facilitate forgiveness...RM



What is the point of forgiveness? And what is the process by which one must go to reach this goal?

I ask... because some things are so egregious it is the memory of the pain that keeps you from returning.... in that case you shouldn't let go of the pain... it is actually healthy to remember that that thing hurts... or that person will hurt you...

just like placing your hand in fire... everytime you go near heat you remember not to get too close....
Mr. Muhammad offline
C3 · 77 Forum Posts
October 8, 2007 at 9:18 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:

What is the point of forgiveness? And what is the process by which one must go to reach this goal?

I ask... because some things are so egregious it is the memory of the pain that keeps you from returning.... in that case you shouldn't let go of the pain... it is actually healthy to remember that that thing hurts... or that person will hurt you...

just like placing your hand in fire... everytime you go near heat you remember not to get too close....


Forgiveness is not the same as "forgetting".

One will always "remember" the pain of an offense or injury, and the memory of such can carry unpleasant side effects which cause a person to behave irrationally in present time, if one is not given a way and an opportunity to come to terms with it.

The point of forgiveness is to restore the peace of the soul, which is impossible as long as one holds onto a grudge.

There is a marked difference between the survival value of a memory, and the poisonous effect of the pain associated with the memory which causes people to "freak out" at the slightest suggestion or reminder of that pain.

We can be at "cause" in life, or we can be at "effect".

Forgiveness helps us to return to "cause"...but it's a long journey back.

RM
Khalliqa offline
A1 · 7901 Forum Posts
October 8, 2007 at 10:14 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Muhammad:
The point of forgiveness is to restore the peace of the soul, which is impossible as long as one holds onto a grudge.

There is a marked difference between the survival value of a memory, and the poisonous effect of the pain associated with the memory which causes people to "freak out" at the slightest suggestion or reminder of that pain.



That "freak out" is often relative is it not... I find that those who have not encountered such devastation as say "war" are ill equipped to properly understand the effects of seeing death daily and the weight of guilt from being part of that.....

and how does one have peace with an evil thing or event...

quote:
We can be at "cause" in life, or we can be at "effect".


what is wrong with being at "effect"? The "effect" stage is the learning stage... where one has learned the lesson to detest the thing that caused the injury in the first place....
Vox offline
A1 · 4805 Forum Posts
October 8, 2007 at 11:06 AM
quote:
Originally posted by kresge:
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
What exactly is forgiveness, though, as contemplated by Christianity? I never got the impression that God is asking you to trust someone who violated your trust, if they haven't atoned for that violation. If someone has committed a transgression against you, are you supposed to proceed without setting up some kind of safeguard against the same person doing the exact same thing?

You are correct.
quote:
Or is forgiveness simply the letting go of ill feelings, and the refusal to harbor any ill will toward the person?

Exactly. This is how I understand forgiveness. Forgiveness is about letting go of ill feelings or will toward another person. It definitely does not mean to put yourself in harms way. Thus, if you are in an abusive relationship, forgiveness does not mean that you remain in the situation. Forgiveness is about moving on and not living in the past. It is an openness and receptivity to God's grace and healing and even wishing for this grace and healing to be extended to the person who has wronged you.


Thanks, Kresge. On a personal note, my experience over the last 9 or 10 years has shown that the ability to forgive (as per our agreed-upon definition Big Grin) comes easier when your priorities focus on the proper "centeredness."

Kweli4Real , IMO, is on target when he states that it's about you and not about the person. There is a certain serenity in forgiveness, but there's also a certain sense of logic and correctness that comes from understanding that the present reality of a person's past transgressions against you amount to being their problem and not yours. Whatever justice may be available to you, society is supposed to provide for that; whatever safguards against further transgressions would be in your best interests to pursue. But the failure to shed ill will/ill feeling is a failing within ones own self, and the strength of the spirit is measured, IMO, by how impervious it is to being impacted adversely by someone else's failings.

Interestingly, as I've grown into the label of "Non-Christian," by views on this matter have solidified. Although I know I can't claim to adhere to this 24/7 in practice, on balance it works for me, and it does seem to enhance living.
Khalliqa offline
A1 · 7901 Forum Posts
October 8, 2007 at 11:52 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
But the failure to shed ill will/ill feeling is a failing within ones own self, .


Now you're a failure if you don't quickly get over someone else's injustice towards you....

for a board full of agnostic, atheist, buddhist leanings... ya'll more judgmental than the religious, whose values you abhor... Roll Eyes

"handle your abuse well, or you're a weak... failure"...

the abuser?

"Well just gotta realize folx is like dat and move on quickly with your life or you're a failure within yourself"...


typical.....
Vox offline
A1 · 4805 Forum Posts
October 8, 2007 at 12:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
But the failure to shed ill will/ill feeling is a failing within ones own self, .


Now you're a failure if you don't quickly get over someone else's injustice towards you....

for a board full of agnostic, atheist, buddhist leanings... ya'll more judgmental than the religious, whose values you abhor... Roll Eyes



Okay, before we stray too far into the realm of knee-jerk misunderstanding, a "failing," as I view it, does not make you a "failure." A failing makes you a human. And like I implied in that exact same post, I make that same "failing" myself. See above: ...I can't claim to adhere to this 24/7 in practice...

So just because you haven't forgiven whoever has wronged you, doesn't mean I'm being "judgmental" against you, because I also sometimes have a hard time with that. In fact, in many ways, I could be judged much more harshly than you (if it were judgeable, which it's not), because I come up short in this occasionally even though my own beliefs tell me that it's self-defeating.

And that brings me to the main thing about forgiveness: I'm not a true Christian, so I don't really see the failure to forgive as a "sin"; I see it as self-defeating behavior. So even if I never did it myself, it's still not something "judgeable," because it's not that you're doing something immoral; you're just limiting your own self, and hindering your own ability to grow. It doesn't make you a bad person, and it's certainly nobody else's business.
Khalliqa offline
A1 · 7901 Forum Posts
October 8, 2007 at 1:05 PM
I do not get it.. I admit it! Why is it self defeating not to forgive?????? Why does the VICTIM have to come to peace over an INJUSTICE?????

Certainly one can function and have peace in their life and still give not one iota of serenity to thought of an injustice....


I don't see how this harms the person...
kresge offline
A1 · 4297 Forum Posts
October 8, 2007 at 2:26 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
I do not get it.. I admit it! Why is it self defeating not to forgive?????? Why does the VICTIM have to come to peace over an INJUSTICE?????

Certainly one can function and have peace in their life and still give not one iota of serenity to thought of an injustice....


I don't see how this harms the person...

Here is my take on this. I think that it can be self defeating if one is unable to move on with their life, to grow and to flourish. One can become trapped in the past, stagnant, basically becoming defined by an event instead of them defining who they are and wish to be. I would never say that a victim should deny their experience or to be passive or submissive. On the other hand, some people come to see and identify themselves solely as a victim. Their pain and anger becomes how they identify themselves. They give incredible amounts of energy to such feelings and emotions, energy which could be used for other things in their life. They may also see everything through the lens of their trauma, which may result in their misreading and mischaracterizing the world around them. They may then close themselves off from opportunities that life presents. As I see it, forgiveness is an act of reclaiming your power. The other party or parties who wounded you do not have the power to define you. To forgive is to claim your power, to determine how you will live your life.
Mr. Muhammad offline
C3 · 77 Forum Posts
October 8, 2007 at 3:47 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Muhammad:
The point of forgiveness is to restore the peace of the soul, which is impossible as long as one holds onto a grudge.

There is a marked difference between the survival value of a memory, and the poisonous effect of the pain associated with the memory which causes people to "freak out" at the slightest suggestion or reminder of that pain.



That "freak out" is often relative is it not... I find that those who have not encountered such devastation as say "war" are ill equipped to properly understand the effects of seeing death daily and the weight of guilt from being part of that.....

and how does one have peace with an evil thing or event...

quote:
We can be at "cause" in life, or we can be at "effect".


what is wrong with being at "effect"? The "effect" stage is the learning stage... where one has learned the lesson to detest the thing that caused the injury in the first place....


Imagine a spectrum...or a graded scale. On one end is "Complete Cause", and on the other end is "Complete Effect".

Where on that scale would you expect to find...

...the CEO of an organization?

...an introvert?

...a God?

...a corpse?

...an irresponsible person?

One who is unable to "forgive" is held in the past by the very thing they cannot forgive, and is thus subject to constant restimulation of the effects of the past, even when present circumstances present no real danger. This minimizes one's effectiveness in present time...taking one away from "cause" over one's environment.

The more "at cause" we are, the more Alive we are.

The more "at effect" we are, the Less Alive we are.

I am not deluded into thinking that forgiving is always easy, but it must be done if complete peace is to be restored to the Soul.

Grudges are like splinters in the Heart; or, as I usually put it, "The more one holds onto a grudge, the more one BECOMES the grudge that they hold."

I certainly would not judge someone who did not feel they could forgive something as heinous as rape, or murder; but the fact remains, their peace will increase if they can manage to forgive, or release the hurt.

Mind you, I am speaking of the psychological effects of forgiving; not the moral appropriateness of it.

RM
Mr. Muhammad offline
C3 · 77 Forum Posts
October 8, 2007 at 3:51 PM
quote:
Originally posted by kresge:
...As I see it, forgiveness is an act of reclaiming your power. The other party or parties who wounded you do not have the power to define you. To forgive is to claim your power to determine how you will live your life.


DAMN!! That's GOOD STUFF right there!!

Thanx!

Now, the question could be asked, "How does one go about the process of forgiving?"

Is it a process? Or, is it as simple as making a decision? Or, does it just depend on the situation?

RM
Khalliqa offline
A1 · 7901 Forum Posts
October 8, 2007 at 5:40 PM
quote:
Originally posted by kresge:

Here is my take on this. I think that it can be self defeating if one is unable to move on with their life, to grow and to flourish.



I guess this is where I am disconnected from what others are saying.... It is perfectly possible to flourish, grow, be at peace and harbor ill feelings for an evil person... or thing.... one does not have to harp on it... one just needs to remember where NOT to go.... that does not preclude one from going in other directions.... One is not destined to become trapped...


I suppose I am attempting to convey that it is quite probable to lead a healthy life AND never be at peace with an area of one's life... one does not have to revisit it... freak out about it or anything... just keep moving and realize that there are some places or persons that one's heart and mind cannot visit or to whom they should not lend their energy..

There are people and events that are unforgiveable.... this "grudge" is not inherently self defeating.... I see it as enlightening.... and honestly withdrawal and limitation in a lascivious, wanton, corrupt and unrestrained society is not a bad thing... capice?



Salaam...
SavvysPlace offline
A1 · 1850 Forum Posts
October 8, 2007 at 5:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Muhammad:
quote:
Originally posted by kresge:
...As I see it, forgiveness is an act of reclaiming your power. The other party or parties who wounded you do not have the power to define you. To forgive is to claim your power to determine how you will live your life.


DAMN!! That's GOOD STUFF right there!!

Thanx!

Now, the question could be asked, "How does one go about the process of forgiving?"

Is it a process? Or, is it as simple as making a decision? Or, does it just depend on the situation?

RM


You know, I just finished a book entitled, "Approval Addiction" by Joyce Meyer. Several of the topics she covers are about forgiveness and pushing past the pain of feelings.

I know she knows a thing about forgiveness and pushing past because she admits to being sexually mosted by her father for the 18 years of her childhood/teen life. She's good about showing her own route to forgiveness and leaving bitter feelings behind.

In her chapter, 'Pressing Past Anger and Unforgiveness' here are some of the things she writes:

"The ability to forgive requires an attitude of humility...."

"You may choose to forgive and yet find your feelings toward the person who hurt you are still quite unforgiving. Forgiveness is a choice you make and you must earnestly work toward that goal. But understand it may take time. And that is okay. If we do what we can do, God will do what we cannot do. We cannot make wrong feelings go away any more than we can make right ones come, but God can and will. If we will simply do what Scripture instructs us to do, we will be able to work through the process of forgiveness.

She goes on to say that hanging on to old hurts and pains is just reliving the "hurtful" event all over again. While the other party or parties may have moved on, you are actually living out the same situation over and over again, if you choose to hold onto all of the pain and memories of what took place.

This is where the premise of "let go and let God" comes in. While you may feel the hurt for a while, you don't have to hate for eternity.

She then goes on to say that we need to pray for our enemies, explaining that praying for our enemies is not a matter of praying for them to have nice things. But it is a matter of asking God to bless them spiritually so they can overcome whatever it is in their character that actively chooses to persecute you.

When we ask God to bless our enemies, we can go a step further in treating them right by not speaking negatively about them - no matter what they do.

I've had to do this myself a number of times and it is one of the hardest things we are called to do. It is, simply because people confuse responding in a right way, with being "stupid." Our natural selves would like to knock the living daylights out of anybody who'd disrespect us, every time they did it. But our spiritual selves warrant that we make the natural self take a back seat as we practice what we were originally created for, and that is to demonstrate and carry out love.

When we pray that God will work on our enemies, while helping us to get through the issue at hand, we are allowing God to work in multifaceted ways to bring about the best possible good for all parties involved.

When we ask God to bless your enemies, she writes: "Another thing that God tells us to do is bless our enemies, so that this is the third thing. To bless someone means to speak well of them and want good things for them. Refuse to talk unkindly about those who hurt you. Don't keep talking about what your enemies did that hurt you. It only keeps the pain stirred up in you.

I also believe we can and should bless our enemies in practical ways when it is appropriate. Once God led me to send gift certificates to someone who had been talking unkindly about me. The moment I did, I felt a release from the wound, and joy filled my soul. I did not send the person a gift because I thought that individual deserved one. I did it because God blesses those who do not deserve it, and I wanted to be like Him."

Hardest thing in the world to do, but it becomes easier when you consider that your enemy only made you suffer for a time. Asking for them to suffer for an eternity is not a fair "exchange" that God should enact upon them, given that you eventually got a reprieve....and knowing that we all need forgiveness, I feel better knowing that I won't suffer forever for the temporary things that I may have done in my own life.

Keeping the focus on the Creator and His purpose...that makes it easier to forgive, pray, and move on.
Khalliqa offline
A1 · 7901 Forum Posts
October 8, 2007 at 6:12 PM
omg... bless our enemies???


okay... done with this topic....


carry on.....
Mr. Muhammad offline
C3 · 77 Forum Posts
October 8, 2007 at 6:36 PM
Good Post, Shaya...

There is only one thing that I would add, and that is:

We have to be careful not to forget that God, Himself, has put conditions on His Forgiveness, and that those who do not avail themselves of the opportunity to seek His Forgiveness will be...ummm..."destroyed", according to the Bible (and Qur'an).

This is why, from the Biblical perspective, we are warned of a Day of Judgment, when the Son of Man will return with Power, to crush (kill) the wicked.

So we who believe in the Teachings of the Bible must be careful about "who" we forgive, and under what circumstances; lest we be found "forgiving" people that God intends to destroy, and thus share in their destruction.

"Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers in her sins, and sharers in her plagues."

Thanks Again!

RM
Kai offline
A1 · 562 Forum Posts
October 8, 2007 at 7:10 PM
Peace....


Where there is no justice, there will be no real peace. Forgiveness should never take precedence over justice. We all should look forward to the coming of the earned punishment of those who practice wickedness. The scriptures, both Bible and Qur'an are filled with more promises of retribution than forgiveness...

God would not be just if he allowed all sins to go unpunished ......

True forgiveness can only be accomplished by God...We can choose to forgive someone, and Allah may not forgive them...

I agree that harboring anger and seeking revenge may be harmful, however, not forgiving does necessarily mean that one is angry and vengeful...It may simply mean that they are patient, and have faith that the Lord of Creation will be Just in a time of His own choosing...


The Bible puts it like this "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.".


Whe Jesus prayed, he prayed for the forgiveness of those who knew not...You did not find Jesus praying for the forgiveness of Satan or those of His house. There are people who consciously adopt evil..

Most times I forgive those who trespass against my peace, however, I will never say that it is only right to forgive..No...forgiveness is an option, but it is not the only correct choice...



Kai
Oshun Auset offline
A1 · 7168 Forum Posts
October 9, 2007 at 10:10 AM (Last Edited: October 9, 2007 at 2:00 PM)
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Muhammad:
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
What exactly is forgiveness, though, as contemplated by Christianity? I never got the impression that God is asking you to trust someone who violated your trust, if they haven't atoned for that violation. If someone has committed a transgression against you, are you supposed to proceed without setting up some kind of safeguard against the same person doing the exact same thing? Or is forgiveness simply the letting go of ill feelings, and the refusal to harbor any ill will toward the person?


Good Questions...

As I mentioned earlier, I think it takes an unusual degree of insight into, and Love for, the Basic Essence and Nature of the Human Being to forgive someone "unconditionally". In my whole life, I may have met two or three persons like that; but most of us need a process of some sort to help facilitate forgiveness...even if it's just talking with the person who offended us to get some understanding.

Here's the touchy part:

Historically, the slave master used certain parts of the doctrine of "Christianity" to psychologically disarm us of any inclination to resist or retaliate against their brutality.

Passages like, "Love your enemies" and "turn the other cheek", and forgiving "seventy times seven"; these and other passages were used to make us more tolerant of the evil that we were suffering at their hands.

They had our ancestors in bondage for 310 years before they would allow them to read; but by then, our minds were already warped by the oppression and poison of white supremacy under the guise of religion.

Unfortunately, many of our people are still infected with that same warped idea that we must tolerate oppression, and forgive the oppressor, to please God.

Many are waking up, however...with many more to follow.

RM


yeah This is what always comes to my mind when people focus(in an imbalanced way) on 'forgiveness'. Not saying that that is what is going on in this thread.

quote:
Originally posted by Kai:
Peace....


Where there is no justice, there will be no real peace. Forgiveness should never take precedence over justice. We all should look forward to the coming of the earned punishment of those who practice wickedness. The scriptures, both Bible and Qur'an are filled with more promises of retribution than forgiveness...

God would not be just if he allowed all sins to go unpunished ......

True forgiveness can only be accomplished by God...We can choose to forgive someone, and Allah may not forgive them...

I agree that harboring anger and seeking revenge may be harmful, however, not forgiving does necessarily mean that one is angry and vengeful...It may simply mean that they are patient, and have faith that the Lord of Creation will be Just in a time of His own choosing...


The Bible puts it like this "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.".


Whe Jesus prayed, he prayed for the forgiveness of those who knew not...You did not find Jesus praying for the forgiveness of Satan or those of His house. There are people who consciously adopt evil..

Most times I forgive those who trespass against my peace, however, I will never say that it is only right to forgive..No...forgiveness is an option, but it is not the only correct choice...



Kai


yeah But as a non Abrahamic believer. I personally also think that justice is 'ours'. I think it is our job to create justice here on this earth.

I like what a lot of people posted on this thread. Forgiving(or rather not holding a grudge and moving on) from personal individual wrongs and 'forgiving' wrongs continually perpetuated against humanity fall into two different realms.
I_am_Mahogany offline
A1 · 571 Forum Posts
October 9, 2007 at 10:51 AM
quote:
Originally posted by kresge:
quote:
Originally posted by Khalliqa:
I do not get it.. I admit it! Why is it self defeating not to forgive?????? Why does the VICTIM have to come to peace over an INJUSTICE?????

Certainly one can function and have peace in their life and still give not one iota of serenity to thought of an injustice....


I don't see how this harms the person...

Here is my take on this. I think that it can be self defeating if one is unable to move on with their life, to grow and to flourish. One can become trapped in the past, stagnant, basically becoming defined by an event instead of them defining who they are and wish to be. I would never say that a victim should deny their experience or to be passive or submissive. On the other hand, some people come to see and identify themselves solely as a victim. Their pain and anger becomes how they identify themselves. They give incredible amounts of energy to such feelings and emotions, energy which could be used for other things in their life. They may also see everything through the lens of their trauma, which may result in their misreading and mischaracterizing the world around them. They may then close themselves off from opportunities that life presents. As I see it, forgiveness is an act of reclaiming your power. The other party or parties who wounded you do not have the power to define you. To forgive is to claim your power, to determine how you will live your life.


I like what you said here Kresge.
My faith teaches me to be a victor and not a victim. For me, forgiving someone allows me to let go of resentment and bitterness. It allows me to keep focused on God knowing that he is in control.

Genesis 50:20 reads: You meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result.

I don't care what someone has done to me I forgive in my heart and let it go. Forgiveness of our sins required the supreme sacrifice -- the death of Jesus Christ. If He can make the ultimate sacrifice and forgive me my sins, there is NOTHING that I can't forgive someone else.
EbonyRose offline
A1 · 16590 Forum Posts
October 9, 2007 at 11:35 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
I like what a lot of people posted on this thread. Forgiving(or rather not holding a grudge and moving on) from personal individual wrongs and 'forgiving' wrongs continually perpetuated against humanity fall into two different realms.


yeah

I agree, Oshun Auset!! Most of the discussion here has been very interesting and informative as well!

Me? I am at one with my hate ... and plan to carry it with me to the grave!! Big Grin

(Just kidding, of course!) Smile

I don't believe in holding transgressions against me inside, as that it probably one of the most crippling and self-defeating things a person can do to themselves. I find people who do this are usually quite miserable in their lives ... and choosing to be happy is much more rewarding! Smile
Kweli4Real offline
A1 · 8600 Forum Posts
October 9, 2007 at 11:42 AM
After a quick [and skimming] reading of this very interesting thread, the I find it curious that those that advocate for non-forgiveness or conditional forgiveness, also appear to view something that is given to someone else for their benefit, rather than something that we give give to some else, but for our benefit.

Question: Mr. Muhammad wrote:
quote:
So we who believe in the Teachings of the Bible must be careful about "who" we forgive, and under what circumstances; lest we be found "forgiving" people that God intends to destroy, and thus share in their destruction.


How will/would my forgiving someone tie me into their indiscretions?
Oshun Auset offline
A1 · 7168 Forum Posts
October 9, 2007 at 2:09 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
Question: Mr. Muhammad wrote:
quote:
So we who believe in the Teachings of the Bible must be careful about "who" we forgive, and under what circumstances; lest we be found "forgiving" people that God intends to destroy, and thus share in their destruction.


How will/would my forgiving someone tie me into their indiscretions?


I wondered that too... I could see maybe if you are being an enabler... 19
HonestBrother offline
A1 · 9114 Forum Posts
October 9, 2007 at 4:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
Question: Mr. Muhammad wrote:
quote:
So we who believe in the Teachings of the Bible must be careful about "who" we forgive, and under what circumstances; lest we be found "forgiving" people that God intends to destroy, and thus share in their destruction.


How will/would my forgiving someone tie me into their indiscretions?


I wondered that too... I could see maybe if you are being an enabler... 19



Does the inward act of forgiveness necessarily dictate our outward behaviour (which possibly but not necessarily results in "enabling" actions or non-actions)?
Oshun Auset offline
A1 · 7168 Forum Posts
October 9, 2007 at 4:07 PM
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
Question: Mr. Muhammad wrote:
quote:
So we who believe in the Teachings of the Bible must be careful about "who" we forgive, and under what circumstances; lest we be found "forgiving" people that God intends to destroy, and thus share in their destruction.


How will/would my forgiving someone tie me into their indiscretions?


I wondered that too... I could see maybe if you are being an enabler... 19



Does the inward act of forgiveness necessarily dictate our outward behaviour (which possibly but not necessarily results in "enabling" actions or non-actions)?


Good question. I guess that depends on the individual. Some people's outward actions are dictated by their inward processes, some aren't.

I'm looking forward to Mr. Muhammad's response...
Kweli4Real offline
A1 · 8600 Forum Posts
October 9, 2007 at 4:57 PM
Being decidedly atheistic/agnostic, I fear the more disturbingly tragic ... because I forgive someone, I must have, or accept, whatever offense in my heart; therefore, I am equally condemnable.

But I will await a response.
HonestBrother offline
A1 · 9114 Forum Posts
October 9, 2007 at 5:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
Being decidedly atheistic/agnostic, I fear the more disturbingly tragic ... because I forgive someone, I must have, or accept, whatever offense in my heart; therefore, I am equally condemnable.

But I will await a response.



If your child steals money from you, is it possible to forgive the child ... but deal intelligently with the offense so that it is not repeated?
Kweli4Real offline
A1 · 8600 Forum Posts
October 9, 2007 at 8:48 PM
Absolutely. But my forgiving the child and my preventing it from happening again are two different things.

But how does my forgiving the theft of an unrepentent thief somehow condemn me share in his/her crime/punishment? That's what I don't understand.
Kai offline
A1 · 562 Forum Posts
October 10, 2007 at 8:31 AM
Peace....


quote:
But how does my forgiving the theft of an unrepentent thief somehow condemn me share in his/her crime/punishment? That's what I don't understand


If you protect yourself from future injury, and you warn others of the danger of dealing with the person or persons, responsible for harming you, then you have no duty to maintain an adverse disposition toward the party resposible for creating your injury.

The problem is that most people who would witness your protections would accuse you of still harboring a grudge.

If forgiveness creates opportunity for re-injury, then you are negligent in some way for the second offense.

"Steal from me the first time, shame on you, steal from me the second time, shame on both of us..".



Kai
Khalliqa offline
A1 · 7901 Forum Posts
October 11, 2007 at 3:23 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Kai:
The problem is that most people who would witness your protections would accuse you of still harboring a grudge.



yeah
SavvysPlace offline
A1 · 1850 Forum Posts
October 11, 2007 at 4:59 PM
I think Forgiveness and Justice are two entirely different animals. I can forgive someone, not holding a grudge and still know that Justice will be done in the situation if I move my personal agenda out of the way and let the Creator's agenda flourish.

From personal experience, I know that just because I forgive someone DOES NOT mean that I need be around them if their influence will harm my life or that of my son.

When you forgive, you aren't saying, "It is okay that they did this to me (or to whoever)"....you are saying, "I understand that you messed up and I choose not to berate you forever because of it; I choose not to be a hostage to the anger, resentment, fear, manipulation, etc, that was a direct cause of this person's actions..."

When you Bless your enemies, you are in essence asking God to help them wake up, before something much worse happens to them, than what they ever could have done to you. Personally, when someone has wronged me, whether it lasted 1 second or 10 years, that time of persecution was temporary. When it comes to my personally viewing their soul before God and what that means, I can't see myself condemning someone over to the devil for all of eternity just because I'm ticked off about what they did....especially if I know that I've ever done something wrong that could have possibly made someone else feel about me, how I am feeling about that individual.

But that's how I've come to view it. When you really think about the spiritual warfare, that is what is at stake: someone else's soul. I have so much trust in God, that even if they never get the justice I've been conditioned to believe they should get here on earth, I know He will deal with that individual the way He sees fit, in His own time.

That's hard to come to, but it is what we are asked to do so anger and resentment do not overtake us.

Just because you forgive does not mean that you condone what someone does. If you can be comfortable with forgiving and asking God to work on that individual and help you respond to them correctly at all times, then you are not enabling them to do the things that their own nature would call them to do.

What makes these points easier for me to deal with is knowing this: Man acts out of his natural nature, not out of his God given Spiritual nature, a majority of the time. I was telling my son, when you see someone doing things that you do not agree with, you have to be careful not to condemn because, after all, they are only doing what comes to them naturally. We are fallen creatures, so naturally, we will have to war daily between our fallen selves and the selves we were originally created to be, which is righteous before God. This is everyone's daily fight: To choose to do the right that your natural self will try to get you to circumvent.

The spiritual battle is carried out in the mind. If we are always thinking in "victim" mentality, we will always lose the spiritual battle. However, if we grab hold of our thoughts and master them to align with what God would have us focus on, we begin to walk in our spiritual bodies more and more.

That DOES NOT mean let people oppress you! We are told to be as slick as snakes and as innocent as doves. Only this year did I fully get the meaning of this passage. We are supposed to be able to deal on the level of the natural self (the flesh), but master it so supremely and guide it so willingly, that we get it to "like" when we make it walk within the spiritual body.

I realize that is difficult when you consider that while all sin is bad, some of it can be pretty fun too. I have to laugh when typing that because I heard someone actually say this once when she had been questioned on doing something questionable. Her exact words were, "Just because it's bad for you doesn't necessarily mean it isn't fun."....and she had the sneakiest grin on her face.

That is our fight....even when it's fun, to throw it off if it will eventually make us burn.

For instance, some men take great joy in asking me how I handle my "emotions" and/or "feelings" while I am abstaining from sex. The question of du jour seems to be, "But don't you ever need sex?" I always tell them that I don't let the thought and joy of sex master me in my mind or body. I have had to share with them that when I get a lustful thought, instead of indulging in the thought and creating a daydream that would scorch HBO, Sin-a-Max, and the Playboy channel all at the same time, I immediately take my mind to the spiritual and say, "I am not going to sin; this is NOT my body; I'm only borrowing it temporarily from God!" Because it is true: this is not my body, it belongs to God. If I would not defile my neighbor's house, what would I be like if I were so readily able and willing to defile God's?

This method usually works for me in most areas of my life. If that thought or whatever modified version of it doesn't immediately work, I immediately go to God and ask for His help, given that I am a fallen creature and can't do everything by myself in this chaotic spiritual battle. I do this because it is not my job to fight the devil on my own: that job belongs to God and He can do it so much better than I can so I don't even front.

Keeping your mind focused on God is the only way to truly forgive and see the larger picture. It is not about being controlled here on earth by people who would try to subjugate anybody and anything. It is about being right before God and doing what I am asked to do as I keep in "spring training" for the real deal. That's what we are all in: "Spring Training". We were put here on earth to prepare for eternity....

...and I don't want to spend my time here with someone else's useless drama and year long sitcom. Forgiveness works just fine for me.

"Wisdom Is Always Growing Woman!"
Khalliqa offline
A1 · 7901 Forum Posts
October 12, 2007 at 1:02 PM
Shaya:

What is "man's" natural nature? What standard do you use to determine this?
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