quote:

Originally posted by Khalliqa:
There are many people out there who have wonderful fathers.. or know someone who could substitute as one..

I would like suggestions of how to deal with those of us who have irresponsible fathers... who have abusive fathers.. or just bad men in their lives...

There is becoming a disconnect.. those who are fathers are becoming irritated by the negative expressions of those who are bitter about theirs and are wishing them to at least on fathers day say something positive...

What do you think about this suggestion?

quote:

Originally posted by Malik:

quote:

Originally posted by Khalliqa:
There are many people out there who have wonderful fathers.. or know someone who could substitute as one..

I would like suggestions of how to deal with those of us who have irresponsible fathers... who have abusive fathers.. or just bad men in their lives...

There is becoming a disconnect.. those who are fathers are becoming irritated by the negative expressions of those who are bitter about theirs and are wishing them to at least on fathers day say something positive...

What do you think about this suggestion?

It is not non-father's day, it is Father's Day. No one would think of focusing on mother's who abandon their children on Mother's Day. Why do people think it's acceptable to show such disrespect and contempt to fathers on Father's Day?

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Originally posted by Huey:

quote:

Originally posted by Malik:

quote:

Originally posted by Khalliqa:
There are many people out there who have wonderful fathers.. or know someone who could substitute as one..

I would like suggestions of how to deal with those of us who have irresponsible fathers... who have abusive fathers.. or just bad men in their lives...

There is becoming a disconnect.. those who are fathers are becoming irritated by the negative expressions of those who are bitter about theirs and are wishing them to at least on fathers day say something positive...

What do you think about this suggestion?

It is not non-father's day, it is Father's Day. No one would think of focusing on mother's who abandon their children on Mother's Day. Why do people think it's acceptable to show such disrespect and contempt to fathers on Father's Day?

Unfortunately in this society, it's accepted to have or show disdain for Dad, but not Mom. You can talk trash about fathers all day long, but you can't do that to mothers. She could be Eva Braun, and still it's not PC to condemn her.

quote:

Originally posted by Khalliqa:

What is your opinion regarding the question? Do you think people who have negative experiences with their fathers should be quiet about it on Father's Day?

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Originally posted by negrospiritual:

quote:

Originally posted by Khalliqa:

What is your opinion regarding the question? Do you think people who have negative experiences with their fathers should be quiet about it on Father's Day?

This is something that's sorta been on my mind since last year's father's day scolding from then Candidate Obama. I was really irked to the point of writing the campaign about his having used his worldwide media attention to excoriate black dads. Headlines from around the world read like "Obama Gets Tough on Black Dads", etc. Pundits, journalists, preachers and nearly everybody i saw being interviewed was saying stuff like "He was only saying what needs to be said and he was the only one who could do it"

Imagine my surprise when many of my friends and acquaintances agreed with that assessment and actually chided me for being upset about it.

So I said all that to say, that i realize there are generations of people who have been emotionally affected by their dad's absence even if they turned out just fine. When dad left, he left a permanent hole in his children's hearts. There is also the collective swallowed anger of black moms who have been left holding the bag by themselves. Our culture is not big on counseling, so i don't know if some sort of special day of recognition, or some sort of community wide ritual can help address this. There is deep pain within our community surrounding this issue. It does need to be acknowledged.

Still, it would be great to be able to celebrate the many Black Dads who are doing the dang thang, in addition to the black stepdads, uncles, and granddads + "Mr Woodrows" who have stepped up to the plate. They don't deserve what is becoming the Annual BLack Man's Slap in Da Face Day.

quote:

Originally posted by Huey:

It's not about being quiet, it's about why is it only just the fathers? I don't remember anyone who had negative experiences with their mothers, putting it on blast on Mother's Day.

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Originally posted by negrospiritual:

quote:

Originally posted by Khalliqa:

What is your opinion regarding the question? Do you think people who have negative experiences with their fathers should be quiet about it on Father's Day?

This is something that's sorta been on my mind since last year's father's day scolding from then Candidate Obama. I was really irked to the point of writing the campaign about his having used his worldwide media focus to excoriate black dads. Headlines from around the world read like "Obama Gets Tough on Black Dads", etc. Pundits, journalists, preachers and nearly everybody i saw being interviewed was saying stuff like "He was only saying what needs to be said and he was the only one who could do it"

Imagine my surprise when many of my friends and acquaintances agreed with that assessment and actually chided me for being upset about it. A friend of mine, who grew up without her dad in her life, compared me to those women on television who swear that their baby did not shoot 10 people and set the block on fire because he was good and never bothered nobody

So I said all that to say, that i realize there are generations of people who have been emotionally affected by their dad's absence even if they turned out just fine. When dad left, he left a permanent hole in his children's hearts. There is also the collective swallowed anger of black moms who have been left holding the bag by themselves. Our culture is not big on counseling, so i don't know if some sort of special day of recognition, or some sort of community wide ritual can help address this. There is deep pain within our community surrounding this issue. It does need to be acknowledged.

Still, it would be great to be able to celebrate the many Black Dads who are doing the dang thang, in addition to the black stepdads, uncles, and granddads + "Mr Woodrows" who have stepped up to the plate. They don't deserve what is becoming the Annual BLack Man's Slap in Da Face Day.

quote:

Originally posted by Khalliqa:

It still boils down to not wanting to hear about anyone's else's problems on "THEIR" day.. and I fail to empathize with that... and I do not see Father's Day as only the day for good father's... It's a day of recognition for YOUR father.. If you can't recognize him.. I think you have every right to voice that...

Without someone else feeling like you're raining on their parade..

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Originally posted by negrospiritual:

quote:

Originally posted by Khalliqa:

It still boils down to not wanting to hear about anyone's else's problems on "THEIR" day.. and I fail to empathize with that... and I do not see Father's Day as only the day for good father's... It's a day of recognition for YOUR father.. If you can't recognize him.. I think you have every right to voice that...

Without someone else feeling like you're raining on their parade..

I kinda don't see it that way. I see the day as a celebration of fatherhood. I don't get offended about people expressing their feelings about an absent dad, but i do get offended with people attempting to pathologize black fatherhood, exclusively.

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As Huey pointed out, we don't go around griping about crackhead mamas

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who leave the children in the care of their aging grandparents on Mothers Day, despite the huge number of grandparents left with the responsibility of raising a 2nd or 3rd set of kids.

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The entire nation whether you have a living mother or not, gets into the whole spirit of celebrating that which is special about Motherhood (or an idealized perception of it). Fatherhood, deserves that same fondness and respect. I can have a rotten bastard of a father, and still believe in and promote the ideals of fatherhood.

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[quote]But, again, I also believe our community does indeed need to find a way to acknowledge and heal the emotional scars of generations of fatherlessness. No doubt, the black counselors, preachers, teachers, coaches, and surrogate parents among us have much work to do.

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Originally posted by Khalliqa:
To wish ill on someone is one thing, to express your disappointment in your own is another.. People often confuse the two and feel personally attacked.. when neither party can really change their personal circumstances..

Pain doesn't go away for one day especially a day like today.. and to hear someone express their pain regarding their father on this day should not mean you are personally offended... If someone is personally attacking YOUR father then that's another thing..

It still boils down to not wanting to hear about anyone's else's problems on "THEIR" day.. and I fail to empathize with that... and I do not see Father's Day as only the day for good father's... It's a day of recognition for YOUR father.. If you can't recognize him.. I think you have every right to voice that...

Without someone else feeling like you're raining on their parade..

quote:

Originally posted by EbonyRose:

quote:

Originally posted by Khalliqa:
To wish ill on someone is one thing, to express your disappointment in your own is another.. People often confuse the two and feel personally attacked.. when neither party can really change their personal circumstances..

Pain doesn't go away for one day especially a day like today.. and to hear someone express their pain regarding their father on this day should not mean you are personally offended... If someone is personally attacking YOUR father then that's another thing..

It still boils down to not wanting to hear about anyone's else's problems on "THEIR" day.. and I fail to empathize with that... and I do not see Father's Day as only the day for good father's... It's a day of recognition for YOUR father.. If you can't recognize him.. I think you have every right to voice that...

Without someone else feeling like you're raining on their parade..

That may be true ... but, I think a lot depends on the specific circumstance.

A casual, "My father was an asshole" is one thing ... an all-day long barrage about 'your pain' would be another.

quote:

If you're talking to somebody who doesn't want or appreciate you sharing 'your pain' with them ... but it's important to you that you do, perhaps you're conversing with the wrong person and you should talk to somebody else who can or will.

Unfortunately, it's your issue. And also unfortunately, nobody else owes it to you to deal with it for or with you. That's one of life's little realities ... whether you want it to be or not. And we all have to deal with that ... whether we want to or not.

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Originally posted by Khalliqa:

You can't heal a father's absence.. He needs to be there.. and be there non abusively and be there relevantly...

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Originally posted by Khalliqa:

but this crack mama/grandma epidemic you're speaking of is new to me...

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Originally posted by Vox:
I always thought Father's Day was about fathers, not about the children of the fathers. And it's not just about ones own father. I've had perfect strangers all day, who assume I have children, wish me a happy father's day, and I've done the same back.

The fact that my father was an absentee has barely registered with me on a day like today; at least not too much more than any other day. There are dozens of fathers out there whom I know and wish to extend greetings to. It's not about me and my situation vis a vis my father. It's just a day to wish a happy father's day to guys who ARE in their kids' lives.

Given that, and given the human mind and its extraordinary multitasking capabilities, I've had no problem reflecting on my father's relative absenteeism while simultaneously being able to wish and spread joy to the dads I know out there.

quote:

Originally posted by Vox:
I always thought Father's Day was about fathers, not about the children of the fathers. And it's not just about ones own father. I've had perfect strangers all day, who assume I have children, wish me a happy father's day, and I've done the same back.

The fact that my father was an absentee has barely registered with me on a day like today; at least not too much more than any other day. There are dozens of fathers out there whom I know and wish to extend greetings to. It's not about me and my situation vis a vis my father. It's just a day to wish a happy father's day to guys who ARE in their kids' lives.

Given that, and given the human mind and its extraordinary multitasking capabilities, I've had no problem reflecting on my father's relative absenteeism while simultaneously being able to wish and spread joy to the dads I know out there.

quote:

Originally posted by negrospiritual:

quote:

Originally posted by Khalliqa:

You can't heal a father's absence.. He needs to be there.. and be there non abusively and be there relevantly...

You're right. Nothing can take the place of daddy. But grown adult people who've been abandoned are still in pain. There must be some type of emotional work that can be done so that people whose fathers were not in their lives can feel more whole, more healthy. The fact that a collective scar exists was validated to me by the number of adult black people on tv, radio, and the internet who were extremely pleased that daddy had been called out on national TV by a presidential candidate. That didn't seem to healthy to me. But, then again, i don't share that experience.

There's gotta be some sort of process that we can create to deal with the feelings that never quite go away, and most likely affect our relationships with everyone else. *shrug*

quote:

Originally posted by Huey:
It is not non-father's day, it is Father's Day. No one would think of focusing on mother's who abandon their children on Mother's Day. Why do people think it's acceptable to show such disrespect and contempt to fathers on Father's Day?

quote:

Originally posted by Khalliqa:
There are many people out there who have wonderful fathers.. or know someone who could substitute as one..

I would like suggestions of how to deal with those of us who have irresponsible fathers... who have abusive fathers.. or just bad men in their lives...

There is becoming a disconnect.. those who are fathers are becoming irritated by the negative expressions of those who are bitter about theirs and are wishing them to at least on fathers day say something positive...

What do you think about this suggestion?

quote:

Originally posted by Khalliqa:

I hate explaining this.. because it seems non productive.. which is why there is a growing disconnect..

Grown people are still in pain because in many cases:

1. Dad is in and out.. causing constant turmoil throughout the years..

2. Dad is absent, but what he left was inexcusable and extremely damaging (think sexual/physical abuse)

3. Dad is gone, and child was abandoned left to others constantly reminding them in extreme repetition, until adulthood how they are so much like their daddy etc.. or family members bring up the father and constantly excuse his absence..

4. Some put him out of their minds until some traumatic event where they realize their choices in life are not in a vacuum and can be traced very much to the effects of not having a father...

5. Have had no positive male role models in their life, or who had them but their role was fleeting enough to not be able to really recognize good men when they are around... (esp. those where drugs and poverty are concentrated)


6. One tries to overcome things from their past, but are reminded through incidences with their friends, family or ex spouses... of behavior which seems engulfing and on constant repeat...

things like that.. are very hard to put into words unless you're suffering from it... and many would think it would be easier had their father left and never made his presence known...

but the world isn't so nice and neat...

That's not a digg at you...

I only say that there is no amount of healing that can be done.. because honestly there aren't enough people that care, or are capable of caring.. to assist.. and there are those who really wish people would "get" over it.. (you know, get over not having a father).. so this only helps others.. not those suffering..

real healing can't take place in a vacuum... I think the real solution is to try to help children who have a chance.. and for adults who understand one another to be there for one another and sort of just hide out and take the taunts on days like this....

That's what I've learned today.. because at this point, all I get is a lot of insensitive responses... some well meaning but insensitive none the less... and the stereotypical "poor black men get a bad rap, there really are a plethora of great men out there so now it's taboo to talk about the plethora of bad men you actually encounter"...

Reminiscent of conversations about spousal abuse.. The " hurry up and lift yourself by your emotional bootstraps" or "don't say anything bad about black men" response ... and in this case it is so "everyone can be happy"...

I was trying to think if there was a way to bridge the gap of understanding.. but I don't think that's possible..

quote:

Originally posted by Wiz:

quote:

Originally posted by Khalliqa:

I hate explaining this.. because it seems non productive.. which is why there is a growing disconnect..

Grown people are still in pain because in many cases:

1. Dad is in and out.. causing constant turmoil throughout the years..

2. Dad is absent, but what he left was inexcusable and extremely damaging (think sexual/physical abuse)

3. Dad is gone, and child was abandoned left to others constantly reminding them in extreme repetition, until adulthood how they are so much like their daddy etc.. or family members bring up the father and constantly excuse his absence..

4. Some put him out of their minds until some traumatic event where they realize their choices in life are not in a vacuum and can be traced very much to the effects of not having a father...

5. Have had no positive male role models in their life, or who had them but their role was fleeting enough to not be able to really recognize good men when they are around... (esp. those where drugs and poverty are concentrated)


6. One tries to overcome things from their past, but are reminded through incidences with their friends, family or ex spouses... of behavior which seems engulfing and on constant repeat...

things like that.. are very hard to put into words unless you're suffering from it... and many would think it would be easier had their father left and never made his presence known...

but the world isn't so nice and neat...

That's not a digg at you...

I only say that there is no amount of healing that can be done.. because honestly there aren't enough people that care, or are capable of caring.. to assist.. and there are those who really wish people would "get" over it.. (you know, get over not having a father).. so this only helps others.. not those suffering..

real healing can't take place in a vacuum... I think the real solution is to try to help children who have a chance.. and for adults who understand one another to be there for one another and sort of just hide out and take the taunts on days like this....

That's what I've learned today.. because at this point, all I get is a lot of insensitive responses... some well meaning but insensitive none the less... and the stereotypical "poor black men get a bad rap, there really are a plethora of great men out there so now it's taboo to talk about the plethora of bad men you actually encounter"...

Reminiscent of conversations about spousal abuse.. The " hurry up and lift yourself by your emotional bootstraps" or "don't say anything bad about black men" response ... and in this case it is so "everyone can be happy"...

I was trying to think if there was a way to bridge the gap of understanding.. but I don't think that's possible..

There is a way to bridge the gap and that way is to recognize men who are good fathers when they are good fathers. By using the opportunity, the one, sole day out of the year set aside to recognize men who are good fathers, to bitch about men who are not, you do more to substantiate men who are not good fathers than men who are. I mean if I handle my business, your recognition don't really mean shit to me. My children are present enough for me. But for you to take Father's Day to belittle non fathers, you take Father's Day to bitch about black men, then the non-fathers have proven their point. Because if you do good you get the same shit from society that you would if you do not do good. IN this case good and bad behavior get bitched out. So why bother. Sure it is only one goddamned day out of the whole damned year, you think folk could stop bitching about motherfuckers that ain't fathers and celebrate the ones who are. Instead, just like the other 364 days of the year of being called NIGGER by america, just like the other 364 days where black men ain't shit but a statistic of fuck ups. Thank you so very much.

People with bad, black fathers can give us one day a year of fucking peace.

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Originally posted by Khalliqa:

I've come to the conclusion that I think that those who have horrible fathers will not cease thinking about such horrors on fathers day, in fact, such experiences will become magnified on that day.. and those who can't stand those who don't have good experiences should not fraternize with those who have bad ones.. for their own sake...

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Originally posted by negrospiritual:

quote:

Originally posted by Khalliqa:

I've come to the conclusion that I think that those who have horrible fathers will not cease thinking about such horrors on fathers day, in fact, such experiences will become magnified on that day.. and those who can't stand those who don't have good experiences should not fraternize with those who have bad ones.. for their own sake...

Khalliqa, can you explain why people who think the day is for honoring fathers or celebrating fatherhood are being mischaracterized as "those who can't stand those who don't have good experiences" in your responses? It doesn't seem to accurately describe their position.

quote:

Originally posted by Khalliqa:

2. I've stated that MY experience is that those who are celebrating THEIR father and other good fathers DO have the habit of imposing their frustration that others are not celebrating it.. in other words not only celebrating fathers day but going out of their way to tell others that they SHOULD be celebrating it... or something is wrong with them if they can't...

quote:

Originally posted by negrospiritual:

quote:

Originally posted by Khalliqa:

2. I've stated that MY experience is that those who are celebrating THEIR father and other good fathers DO have the habit of imposing their frustration that others are not celebrating it.. in other words not only celebrating fathers day but going out of their way to tell others that they SHOULD be celebrating it... or something is wrong with them if they can't...

I'm sorry that you've had to endure this behavior from your friends. Those people around you who are imposing anything on you should indeed be more sensitive.

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I agree.. You right, it's prolly best not to fraternize with those in your circle who want to impose ANYTHING including unwarranted celebrations, upon you.

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Originally posted by Khalliqa:


Despite what seems like sarcasm.. ..

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Originally posted by negrospiritual:

quote:

Originally posted by Khalliqa:


Despite what seems like sarcasm.. ..

None intended...

I did not realize until your prior response that you meant a very specific (and personal) situation, and not in the general sense.

quote:

Originally posted by Khalliqa:
Your post doesn't surprise me every time I post anything relating to pain.. you express how things are no big deal..

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those who are fathers are becoming irritated by the negative expressions of those who are bitter about theirs and are wishing them to at least on fathers day say something positive...

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Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
Wow ... Just Wow. Parade meet emotionally scarred rain cloud. I'm glad I didn't read this until after Father's Day.

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those who are fathers are becoming irritated by the negative expressions of those who are bitter about theirs and are wishing them to at least on fathers day say something positive...

Paramount to being mature and healthy is the realization that the world does not center around oneself. As such, we must learn that there are times and places for everything. This includes time to vent and time to shut one's mouth.

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Father's Day is NOT the day to express your pain that you experienced with your father, especially to others who are honoring the spirit of the day.

Father's Day is not about you and your pain.

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Originally posted by Vox:

quote:

Originally posted by Khalliqa:
Your post doesn't surprise me every time I post anything relating to pain.. you express how things are no big deal..

You misunderstand. I never said it was "no big deal," or even that the issue should be treated as such. I was answering your question, which was, "how to deal with those of us who have irresponsible fathers... who have abusive fathers.. or just bad men in their lives..." My suggestion was, and still is, to remember that Father's Day is about fathers first and foremost; the only people who need to be "dealt with" on Father's Day are fathers -- any father, not just our own father. The focus of the day is not on the people who have fathers (whether irresponsible/no good or wonderful), but on fathers.

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Like I said before, my own father was not around very frequently. He was kind of a part-time dad, until I was around 13, when he became a no-time dad. It matters, and it sucks, and it does cross my mind a lot, including on father's day. But when I'm on the elevator in my mother's building, and a brother gets on with his daughter, my experience doesn't seem to stop me from wishing him a happy father's day, and from being genuinely heartwarmed by the sight of them together.

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If you're in that same situation, would you just look the other way and get upset at the sight of them, because you didn't have a good father in your life? That seems extraordinarily self-centered and childish to me.

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Originally posted by Khalliqa:

Actually yes Vox.. If it is your desire to say that those who are so traumatized by abuse and neglect are self centered and childish if such pain renders them incapable of getting into the spirit of celebration on one day after seeing a happy father and child then this is a label that will satisfy you.... however..

quote:

Originally posted by negrospiritual:
....Still, it would be great to be able to celebrate the many Black Dads who are doing the dang thang, in addition to the black stepdads, uncles, and granddads + "Mr Woodrows" who have stepped up to the plate. They don't deserve what is becoming the Annual BLack Man's Slap in Da Face Day.

quote:

Originally posted by Vox:

quote:

Originally posted by Khalliqa:

Actually yes Vox.. If it is your desire to say that those who are so traumatized by abuse and neglect are self centered and childish if such pain renders them incapable of getting into the spirit of celebration on one day after seeing a happy father and child then this is a label that will satisfy you.... however..

If you think it's about my "satisfaction,"

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Originally posted by EbonyRose:
.....We all have to play the cards we're dealt. If you're holding a bad hand, I don't think it's right to wish ill of somebody who's luckier than you. You just gotta wait your turn. Sooner or later, you'll get something to smile about, too.