On a Sydney beach any day of the week you'll find a minimum of 3 topless sunbakers... friends (esp male ) from the USA can't believe their eyes...

But topless off the beach... maybe in a girly bar. I think there would need to be standards... no floppy, saggy, wrinkly cleavage allowed (think Acadamey Awards night ) ... I don't want any more flesh than is alredy exposed in public, myself... soon women will only wear thongs and stillettos and each item will still co$t a mint. Likewise I wouldn't want to see all men walking around bare chested. Gimme some mystery... some tease pleeze.
.

quote:

Originally posted by ma'am:
Should it be legal for women to go topless wherever men are allowed to do so, or is there a legal disparity (usually) for a justifable reason?

And to go off topic just a little bit, what about breastfeeding? Why do Americans have a cow whenever they see a woman trying to feed her baby? I'd be interested in a doing a comparative study about the relationship between different cultures needs for clothing and/or covering up the body. We know that in countries where climates are very hot, people wear very little clothing, because IT'S HOT! But what about in countries where the climate changes, why do these people feel compelled to be fully-clothed all the time? Why do they associate women's breast with something sinful and shameful? Are they ashamed of the nude body? Why does the body need to be supressed and hidden?

I was recently watching the Discovery Channel late one night and on the program they showed viewers a rare inside look into the lives of a very remote tribe called the ZOE-E Tribe, which is located near Brazil. In this tribe, the people walk around completely nude. Penis, breasts, and balls flopping around and all! In front of children, mothers, fathers, grandfathers, babies, aunts, and uncles, everyone stays completely nude, except for a few head adornments and jewelry pieces.

They weren't conditioned to feel shame or to be self-conscious about their bodies being nude. Isn't that wonderful? And the people appeared to be very happy and many of the elders lived very long lives.

Rowe good points. Why some cultures choose to be covered all year round. You need to look at what those cultures see as being modest and pure. In these cultures mostly America and other first world countries. Is religion has a few huge influence on dressing and public modesty. If you look back at ancient Rome or Greece. Later on to other parts of the world. You can see being naked or nearly drape in a rope was seeing as something beautiful. But when Christianity started spreading to these parts of the world. That's were being nude in public or any other place was seen as a sin or a shameful act to do. I don't blame Christianity for this. I blame the rascals that took the spiritual religion and made changes to it. To fit what thought was good and modest Example putting fig leaves on Adam and Eve.

quote:

Originally posted by Rowe:
Are they ashamed of the nude body? Why does the nude body be supressed and hidden?

They weren't conditioned to feel shame or to be self-conscious about their bodies being nude. Isn't that wonderful? And the people appeared to be very happy and many of the elders lived very long lives.

Rowe... I don't disagree with you, however there are two forms of consciousness here... how one feels about being naked, exposed, etc. and the environment and perception of others about that person being exposed, naked etc.

I don't see any 'shame' in female nakedness, however it tends to always be associated with outside mysogyny. If I felt free to walk around naked, but totally aware of misogymous stares, then it would cease to be 'feeling free' and be more about being seen as 'an object'. Modern, ok, western behaviour has created a mindset of women as being commodities... it is this that I don't like or approve of. As far as racing into the sea on a private beach... totally naked and feeling the waves caress me... fantastic! Yes, I've done it. But not under the gaze of misogynous eyes. And not with the view of letting 'just anyone' see me that way... more someone special. A special time and a special place. Or else, it isn't ... special.

Not everyone should be topless. I mean really, if your stomach is able to cast it's own shadow seperate from you, head to the army surplus store, by a barracks tent and cover that shit up.

quote:

Originally posted by FireFly:
I don't see any 'shame' in female nakedness, however it tends to always be associated with outside mysogyny.

By whom? You make this statement as if nakedness is associated with mysogynmy by everyone worldwide when it is not. In many indigeneous cultures, the breasts are viewed as a symbol of power and fertility.

quote:

If I felt free to walk around naked, but totally aware of misogymous stares, then it would cease to be 'feeling free' and be more about being seen as 'an object'.

But you would not get any disapproving and/or disrespecting stares if the members of the culture were not taught to associate nudity with shame, and particularly a woman's body with shame. When it gets the point where the people within a culture become outraged and uncomfortable at the sight of a woman breastfeeding, something that she must to do in order to provide her baby with sustenance, then I'd say the members of that culture are suffering from a real problem.

Why Do Western Men Associate Women's Breasts With Sex?

Another pecularity in Western culture are the men's need to see all women's breasts standing at attention, all the time. The social requirement for young (and old) women to wear uncomfortable and constrictive "bras" in order to "train" the breasts to stand at attention, nipples erect is demeaning, but it is also unhealthy. The shape of women's breasts are as varied as the human fingerprint, and so no two women will have the same shape breasts. In fact, the average woman doesn't even have symmetrically-shaped breasts. One breast is usually larger, smaller, or fuller than the other. But for whatever reason, erect breasts is what is preferred and Western women (as well as women under the culture's influence), will meet the requirements of this aesthetic by wearing bras, which cuts the blood supply. Some will even go to the extent of risking their lives by getting carved up by what is known as a "doctor" who performs a life-threatening procedure called "breast surgery" so that the breasts will stand erect permanately, all because the people have been conditioned to not accept the appearance of aging breasts or breasts of differing shapes and sizes.

Photo: Young Kikuyu woman, Africa

I'll never forget the time my mother, sister, and I were shopping in the organic produce section of the Whole Foods Market when we spotted a very "earthy" White woman completely topless underneath a sheer, netted top shopping with her boyfriend. Her breasts were completely exposed, and surprisingly, no one cared. I was the one that pointed it out to my mom, and my mom said, "She's got some nerve." I didn't know whether to be shocked or impressed by this woman's confidence.

Photo: Two beautiful Massengo women bare-breasted wearing banana leaf hats and adornments, Central Africa

As always Rowe, your commentary is interesting. One question:

Are you leading the charge to change Western thinking about breasts by going braless? If not, when do you intend to start?

quote:

Originally posted by ddouble:
As always Rowe, your commentary is interesting. One question:

Are you leading the charge to change Western thinking about breasts by going braless? If not, when do you intend to start?

Brother, I've already started! I don't mind sharing that my breasts are very small. So I can actually go braless without anyone noticing. The only time that I wear bras is when I'm at work or whenever I wear something clingly or revealing. I've NEVER liked wearing bras. They make me feel like I'm in a straitjacket. And because my breasts are so small, I've always had trouble finding bras that fit. Whenever I do wear one, I'm tugging and literally fighting with the damn thing all day. One day, while driving, I just got so fed up with my bra, that I was tempted to throw it out the window. I hate bras. Who ever invented bras, I wish that I could take the straps and choke them with it.

quote:

Originally posted by Rowe:

quote:

Originally posted by ddouble:
As always Rowe, your commentary is interesting. One question:

Are you leading the charge to change Western thinking about breasts by going braless? If not, when do you intend to start?

Brother, I've already started!

Rowe, In lieu of a bra, you can count on me for support...

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

quote:

Originally posted by Rowe:

quote:

Originally posted by ddouble:
As always Rowe, your commentary is interesting. One question:

Are you leading the charge to change Western thinking about breasts by going braless? If not, when do you intend to start?

Brother, I've already started!

Rowe, In lieu of a bra, you can count on me for support...

Thanks! But like I said, I probably wouldn't need it because mines are little.

quote:

Originally posted by Rowe:

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

quote:

Originally posted by Rowe:

quote:

Originally posted by ddouble:
As always Rowe, your commentary is interesting. One question:

Are you leading the charge to change Western thinking about breasts by going braless? If not, when do you intend to start?

Brother, I've already started!

Rowe, In lieu of a bra, you can count on me for support...

Thanks! But like I said, I probably wouldn't need it because mine are little.

It was a pun, Rowe... "support" ? ... like providing "support" for your cause?...

Anyway, the joke was lost

I know what you meant brother. I got the joke the first time. I know you were being nasty, but I did not want to get nasty.

quote:

Originally posted by Rowe:
I know what you meant brother. I got the joke the first time. I know you were being nasty, but I did not want to get nasty.

Sorry... I really didn't mean to offend... I thought it was merely 'clever'... I wasn't trying to be 'nasty'...

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

quote:

Originally posted by Rowe:
I know what you meant brother. I got the joke the first time. I know you were being nasty, but I did not want to get nasty.

Sorry... I really didn't mean to offend... I thought it was merely 'clever'... I wasn't trying to be 'nasty'...

That's okay. No serious offense taken.

quote:

Originally posted by FireFly:

quote:

Originally posted by Rowe:
Are they ashamed of the nude body? Why does the nude body be supressed and hidden?

They weren't conditioned to feel shame or to be self-conscious about their bodies being nude. Isn't that wonderful? And the people appeared to be very happy and many of the elders lived very long lives.

Rowe... I don't disagree with you, however there are two forms of consciousness here... how one feels about being naked, exposed, etc. and the environment and perception of others about that person being exposed, naked etc.

I don't see any 'shame' in female nakedness, however it tends to always be associated with outside mysogyny. If I felt free to walk around naked, but totally aware of misogymous stares, then it would cease to be 'feeling free' and be more about being seen as 'an object'. Modern, ok, western behaviour has created a mindset of women as being commodities... it is this that I don't like or approve of. As far as racing into the sea on a private beach... totally naked and feeling the waves caress me... fantastic! Yes, I've done it. But not under the gaze of misogynous eyes. And not with the view of letting 'just anyone' see me that way... more someone special. A special time and a special place. Or else, it isn't ... special.

Precisely.

If a turtleneck can get a woman harassed, she can't be blamed for being reluctant to prance around bare-chested. Regardless of how she feels about her body.

If female travellers' stories are anything to go by, this isn't just a Western phenomenon.

Aside from Western nudist resorts/beaches and some native areas elsewhere, which public areas are titties really allowed to be free (lawfully and culturally)?

Going topless in Ontario Canada no longer an issue for women as courts ruled on side of equality (Ontario caselaw, so not binding on the rest of country, but may be referred to).
When the ruling came down it was a crazy summer as women started sunbathing topless and walking the streets topless (police investigated several accidents as a result in my city).
Eventually the thrill faded.

just remember ladies no shoes, no shirt, no service rules are still in effect at stores and restaurants.

quote:

Originally posted by Blacksanction:
...women started sunbathing topless and walking the streets topless (police investigated several accidents as a result in my city).

any dings in your car?

Nope used date a dancer in the 80's- so was quite used to exposed breasts.

As is the typical rule, those who should not go topless do and those that could don't.

The province of Ontario topless since 1992.

Anyone been to a nude beach? I would agree with everyone on the who should go topless or naked. But more then likely it's always going to be the people that you don't want to topless. Never the one's that should. Just like when you go to a nude beach. It's usually free Willie or wriggle stack out there ass naked.

quote:

Originally posted by StaryeYenightess:
Anyone been to a nude beach? I would agree with everyone on the who should go topless or naked. But more then likely it's always going to be the people that you don't want to topless. Never the one's that should. Just like when you go to a nude beach. It's usually free Willie or wriggle stack out there ass naked.

I have never been to a nude beach, but why should the right of nudity be limited to the young and beautiful? In the remote community that I talked about earlier in the discussion, people aren't made to feel self-conscious about their body aging. It's only in Western or "modern" societies that we find these warped and vain ideas about how the body should appear at all times. Members of so-called "advanced" societies can't seem to focus their attention on aspects of humanity that are most important, such as family-building, enjoying life, and caring for the young and elderly. In indigeneous communities that have not been influenced by European culture, it's not about "looking sexy" nude or having a "tight body." The focus stays on survival and securing the existence of the community.

IF you didn't notice. I know you didn't. The discussion is aobut public nudity outside of a nudest camp. Not about a nudest camp. I think people out of this board is that open mined. I was stating what people out of the board. Would think of public nudity in real public. Not a nudest camp.

So there I was in the Dominican Republic. My wife beside me and a very tanned (leather-hided) german woman in some tiger print one piece.
As the noonday sun was nigh I started consumption of alcohol. This woman's poor emaciated husband proceeded to oil her whaleness who decided to sun her prodigeous flabby breasts.
My eyes! My eyes! I cried to no avail.
it got worst as she decided to flop on her belly (baby got back, back , back ,back. (and more chins than a chinese phone book.
Once on her belly she hooked her suit butt cover into the crak of her ass- mmmm cottage cheese.

So are there some folks who should not be exposed I say HELL YEA!!

quote:

Originally posted by Rowe:
[QUOTE] Originally posted by FireFly:
I don't see any 'shame' in female nakedness, however it tends to always be associated with outside mysogyny.

quote:

Rowe: By whom? You make this statement as if nakedness is associated with mysogyny by everyone worldwide when it is not. In many indigeneous cultures, the breasts are viewed as a symbol of power and fertility.

Rowe, I am commenting in the realm of what is, not what is ideal or could be.
So the reality is, that I live in the West where the culture is misogynous, and becoming increasingly so by most of it's inhabitants and those with access to TV and magazines.
However, what if I choose not to want to be topless for the precise reason that I do NOT want my breasts to symbolize fertility and/or power? What if I prefer myself to be seen as a whole person not just - still by your definition - as a physical symbol.

quote:

FireFly: If I felt free to walk around naked, but totally aware of misogymous stares, then it would cease to be 'feeling free' and be more about being seen as 'an object'.

quote:

Rowe: But you would not get any disapproving and/or disrespecting stares if the members of the culture were not taught to associate nudity with shame, and particularly a woman's body with shame. When it gets the point where the people within a culture become outraged and uncomfortable at the sight of a woman breastfeeding, something that she must to do in order to provide her baby with sustenance, then I'd say the members of that culture are suffering from a real problem.

You are making an assumption here... and a sexist one. Who said whether they were approving or disapproving? I don't think you 'get' my viewpoint. As flattering as it may be, I don't want to encourage approving stares either... because it is still about being seen in a merely physical way. I don't need an op, nice shape and no sag here, but still I don't go braless coz I don't want men to see erect nipples before they even see my face.

quote:

Why Do Western Men Associate Women's Breasts With Sex?

c'mon, most men on the planet share that association.

quote:

Another pecularity in Western culture are the men's need to see all women's breasts standing at attention, all the time.

because it says 'look at the effect I have on her...' and for most men it is arousing, 'nuff said.

quote:

Rowe:...people have been conditioned to not accept the appearance of aging breasts or breasts of differing shapes and sizes.

yes, I agree with this, but mostly it is WOMEN who are obsessed with commenting on and being judgemental about other women's breasts.

I think it's impossible to compare indigenous cultures that don't wear clothes within their own area and set of beliefs - to the concept of nakedness in the west.

Religion and indigenous belief systems have always influenced how people live and express themselves and found fulfillment. IMHO today, the West is caught in the confusion between rejecting it's puritanical religious practices and the choice of limitless options of satisfying 'oneself' sexually. Sexuality has become a commodity because it has been separated from intimacy and spirituality, and has so often become a substitute for deep and meaningful relationships with others. Once those human needs (intimacy, sex, love, belonging, ethics) have been separated from one's culture, they become one dimensional. Easy to acquire and but difficult to find true - and lasting - satisfaction with. That's my view of the West and sexuality, in a nutshell...lol.
.

quote:

why do these people feel compelled to be fully-clothed all the time

We "cover up" what we are ashamed of. I think they deemed nakedness a sin because of a deep seeded shame of their bodies. People of color didn't have this "shame" of their bodies.

Then to top it off they spent centuries making people of color "ashamed" of their natural attributes - big lips, butts, dark skin, kinky hair etc and then trying to emulate the same attributes today with sun tan oils, lip and ass injections, a hair jells.

quote:

Originally posted by MidLifeMan:

quote:

why do these people feel compelled to be fully-clothed all the time

We "cover up" what we are ashamed of. I think they deemed nakedness a sin because of a deep seeded shame of their bodies. People of color didn't have this "shame" of their bodies.

Then to top it off they spent centuries making people of color "ashamed" of their natural attributes - big lips, butts, dark skin, kinky hair etc and then trying to emulate the same attributes today with sun tan oils, lip and ass injections, a hair jells.

quote:

Originally posted by Blacksanction:
Going topless in Ontario Canada no longer an issue for women as courts ruled on side of equality (Ontario caselaw, so not binding on the rest of country, but may be referred to).
When the ruling came down it was a crazy summer as women started sunbathing topless and walking the streets topless (police investigated several accidents as a result in my city).
Eventually the thrill faded.

just remember ladies no shoes, no shirt, no service rules are still in effect at stores and restaurants.

ROFL.

Cause of accident:

36Cs

Ah...personally, I think everyone should keep their clothes on. But that's just me.