quote:

Originally posted by Nmaginate:
I'm just trying to understand Kweli's logic and that of a whole bunch of other Black people who can't deal with or don't want Black people to publically criticize Obama even as they are willing to excuse that behavior when Obama does it. And, worse, criticism of Obama is framed as being tantamount to electing John McCain. WTF is that?

throw in that oft "he's just playing the game" statement

I understand "playing the game" means seeking broad support and the inability to appear too closely aligned with black interests, but should black people accept that "playing the game" means the candidate keeps his foot in the black collective azz?

quote:

Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Anyway, I just insist that Obama treat Black voters the same way he treats every other voting demographic. That's my expectation and I expect nothing less than that right now.

For one thing, Obama isn't a member of the other cultural groups that you've mentioned. And more importantly, those other cultural groups aren't grappling with the ong-going problems that have taken over the Black community. So Obama is not going to discuss the same issues with you that he discusses with the Asian, American Native, or Latino community, who are complaining about being ignored as well. The Black community is unique and it is about time they had a candidate in office who can relate to their community as both a politician and a community member, which Obama has talked about on much less critical terms on many different occasions.

Basically, at this juncture, these arguments have become trite, because it's obvious Obama can't do anything to please this segment of Black voters. Forget the issues, everything he says or does is first judged on the basis of whether or not he's treating Black voters like non-Black voters. And when Obama is treating Black voters like he does non-Black voters, another segment of Black voters complain that he doesn't address Black issues personally. Another complaint is that's he's not addressing Black issues at all. So, I'm wondering exactly does it mean to address Black issues? What are the limitations or parameters of having a discussion about "Black issues"? Must every discussion about "Black issues" be a discussion that faults White America for Black people's state of affairs? Can Obama or anyone else for that matter ever talk about what Black people can do to improve their existence separate and apart from Whites? And must every discussion first position the goverment, capitalism, the education system, or some other system as the source of Black people's problems?

Like others have stated, I think these discussions have become pointless. Clearly, interpretations of Obama's speeches and his intentions will depend on the political views of each voter. And in AA.org, clearly there are two very different political views that are at odds.

quote:

Originally posted by negrospiritual:
I understand "playing the game" means seeking broad support and the inability to appear too closely aligned with black interests, but should black people accept that "playing the game" means the candidate keeps his foot in the black collective azz?

On numerous occasions, Obama has talked about America's mistreatment of Black people. On numerous occasions, Obama has talked about how this mistreatment has resulted in systemic and long-ranging problems in the Black community. Obama also talked about issues that we often talk about in AA.org, which includes, but is certainly not limited to missing Black fathers. So please stop misrepresenting Obama's campaign.

quote:

Originally posted by nuggyt:
VOTE FOR CYNTHIA McKINNEY!!!

YOU CAN'T VOTE FOR CYNTHIA McKINNEY IN THE GENERAL ELECTION!!!!

Please offer REALISTIC suggestions.

quote:

Originally posted by Rowe:

quote:

Originally posted by negrospiritual:
I understand "playing the game" means seeking broad support and the inability to appear too closely aligned with black interests, but should black people accept that "playing the game" means the candidate keeps his foot in the black collective azz?

A false accusation. On numerous occasions, Obama has talked about America's mistreatment of Black people. On numerous occasions, Obama has talked about how this mistreatment has resulted in systemic and long-ranging problems in the Black community. Why haven't you discussed it?

1st warning for those who lack reading comprehension skills, don't have a clue, and yet wanna engage in pointless sniping at others, just to have something silly to say, and based on faulty reading skills (ROWE). Get U some business...

quote:

Originally posted by negrospiritual:
1st warning for those who lack reading comprehension skills, don't have a clue, and yet wanna have something to say, based on faulty reading skills (ROWE). Get U some business...

Sister Spiritual, it is possible to have a discussion and a disagreement without insults. I have not insulted your perspective about Obama, though I am very much in disagreement, because your claims about Obama continue to be extreme. As far as my reading is concerned, I did read you respond to Brother Nmaginate's last response by offering yet another exaggerated characterization of Obama, which most likely emanates from an extremist political view.

quote:

Originally posted by UhuruRadio:
Barack Obama has criticized African fathers for abandoning our children, although a recent study showed that black fathers stay more involved with their children after a split from the mother than white fathers. And Obama says nothing of the unjust imprisonment of 1 in 9 black men of child-bearing age, the overwhelming majority of whom are locked up on minor drug or other non-violent economic violations stemming from conditions of desperate poverty. He has failed to achieve any meaningful program of economic development for the African community. In speaking to a group of black legislators, Obama said "a good economic development plan for our community would be if we make sure folks weren't throwing their garbage out of their cars."

Clearly, this author hasn't been paying attention to Obama's campaign or his speeches. I read so many false accuastions in this article, I don't even know where to begin. The article is loaded with misinformation. Please direct this author ASAP to Obama's website and his past speeches in which he has repeatedly discussed a disporportionate number of Black men who are incarcerated and the disadvantages and continued inequalties in America that is making all of it possible.

Also - new video response to Obama up now on UhuruNews.com.

quote:

Originally posted by UhuruRadio:
Also - new video response to Obama up now on UhuruNews.com.

If Uhurunews is providing the same quality of information that was provided by your recent article, then brother I'll pass. I think people should do their research before they write an article piece. Just because someone writes an article and attaches a source at the bottom does not mean the information provided in the article is credible and accurate. So that readers will take your articles seriously, I'd advise posters to make certain the information in your article postings are objective, unbiased, and more importantly, accurate.

rowe that is one fine sista in your avatar....

Her name is Conya Doss. She's a neo-soul artist. She kinda sounds like Davina, remember her?

So Good

quote:

Originally posted by Rowe:

quote:

Originally posted by negrospiritual:
1st warning for those who lack reading comprehension skills, don't have a clue, and yet wanna have something to say, based on faulty reading skills (ROWE). Get U some business...

Sister Spiritual, it is possible to have a discussion and a disagreement without insults. I have not insulted your perspective about Obama, though I am very much in disagreement, because your claims about Obama continue to be extreme. As far as my reading is concerned, I did read you respond to Brother Nmaginate's last response by offering yet another exaggerated characterization of Obama, which most likely emanates from an extremist political view.

ROWE learn how to address people or STFU. No wonder you don't have any issues with how obama handles the black community. You approach people in that same trifling manner. Don't ever open your mouth to utter a fake complaint about "a discussion and a disagreement without insults" when ALL you ever do is INSULT.

Did you bother to attempt a "discussion/disagreement without insults"? NO. Did you bother to voice your disagreement and elaborate on why you disagree? NO. Did you bother to provide your opinion about the young brothas from the Uhuru movement upon whom this thread has been based? NO again. It seems your only motive was to try to utter some off base personal and subjective nonsense about the motives of people who dare to criticise Obama. Rather than provide a meaningful response, you chose to disparage other Black People. You don't even have a principled stance.

I would hate to think you are approaching the african american parents of your students in this manner

quote:

Originally posted by Rowe:

So that readers will take your articles seriously, I'd advise posters to make certain the information in your article postings are objective, unbiased, and more importantly, accurate.

You can only decide for ROWE what is objective and unbiased. YOu really have no clue and would do well to limit your instructional tone towards yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by Rowe:

I did read you respond to Brother Nmaginate's last response by offering yet another exaggerated characterization of Obama, which most likely emanates from an extremist political view.

EXTREMIST POLITICAL VIEW = EVERYTHING ROWE DON'T LIKE....

What do you know of my political views beyond my expressions of irritation at Obama for a specific behavior?

Not jack, so why insist on talking/typing when it's obvious you know not of which you speak?

quote:

Originally posted by negrospiritual:
Did you bother to attempt a "discussion/disagreement without insults"?

I did not personally insult you or anyone else in this discussion. I definitely did not have the nerve to tell someone to shut up or to accuse someone of not having "reading comprehension skills" or of being silly knowing full well that I made statements that warranted a response. You accused Obama of doing something that he has not done. You did that, and then I addressed it. That is what occured.

quote:

Did you bother to voice your disagreement and elaborate on why you disagree?

Oh yes, I most certainly have elaborated on why I disagree with your opinions about Obama. During these discussions I have have posted, reposted, stressed, and emphasized evidence where your opinions about Obama fall short. You haven't addressed them. Rather, YOU choose to focus only on the criticism. YOU choose to filter out everything else.

quote:

Did you bother to provide your opinion about the young brothas from the Uhuru movement upon whom this thread has been based?

The topic of this discussion is not about members of the Uhuru movement. The topic of this discussion is about the media-driven criticism Obama has received for not addressing current Black issues, which was first initiated by the Rev. Wright controversy, and has since morphed into a unyielding entity of its own and is given daily sustenance by people who continue to feed into the media's schemes. However, I do realize that discussions often change from one topic to another, but my response and defense of Obama has been consistently on topic and in line with the topic of this thread and countless others, which often change titles, but are basically the same.

quote:

Rather than provide a meaningful response, you chose to disparage other Black People. You don't even have a principled stance.

If you are unaware of my principled stance, then you haven't been paying attention, which is not surprising, considering your information and opinions about Obama reveals a short-sighted attention as well. But not to worry, I can share my principled stance again, which is and has been this:

Rather than allowing the news media, whose sole purpose and malicious intention is to drive an unmending wedge between Obama and his voters, particularly Black voters, who the media KNOWS will unconditionally support him in large numbers, FOCUS ON THE ISSUES. FOCUS ON THE ISSUES. FOCUS ON THE ISSUES, and then FOCUS ON THE ISSUES.

In addition to focusing on the issues, let's better inform ourselves about each candidate's position. After reading many of the articles and posts provided by our members, it is clear that many people are either not paying close attention to the campaign or they are allowing unreliable sources, such as discussion boards, internet articles, friends, and peers to influence their thoughts about presidential candidates.

I have read so much misinformation about Obama it is ridiculous. Obama has talked about Black men being unjustly incarcerated. Obama has talked about his plans for improving the economic welfare of Black Americans, mainly thorugh improving education for innercity youth. Obama has talked about Jena Six until he was blue in the face. Obama has talked about racism, discrimination, slavery, segregration, on and on. All people are doing is relying on the media's depiction of Obama's position. The media is portraying Obama as an anti-Black Black man who hates Black people and has never said a word about Black issues. IT'S ALL A LIE. And you in particular Sister Spiritual have fallen for the only trick the media has to separate Obama from who they know is the only loyal supporter he has: The Black community.

I don't usually like to bring up discussions from other threads, but in this case, it will be very helpful in making an important point. Not too long ago, we had a discussion in the Entertainment & Music forum about Erykah Badu, a neo-soul artist who made the decision to have three kids by three different men. I waited a long time before I responded, because I wanted to read and study the criticism. I remember you responded by criticizing Badu for living up (or living down) to a Black statistic. I am pretty sure that was a criticism that associated Badu with a negative stereotype of Black women. Now, can we conclude that your criticism of Badu, and in this case, Black women, summarizes your TOTAL perspective about all Black people? In other words, is it fair to conclude that you have a negative view of all Black people based on your criticism of Badu?

quote:

Originally posted by Rowe:

I remember you responded by criticizing Badu for living up or living down to a Black statistic.

ROWE YOU ARE A LIAR AND YOU WILL TWIST THE SITUATION ANY OLE WAY TO SUIT YOUR PSEUDO "POINT" NONSENSE

Please be my guest, Rowe Liar, copy and past the exact words where i criticized Badu for "FOR LIVING UP TO OR DOWN TO A BLACK STATISTIC". While you will indeed find a criticism of Badu's behavior, you will not find anything about living up to or down to a black statistic.

BECAUSE ROWE LIAR POINT BLANK MADE THAT PART UP.

Further, what does that have to do with the fact that you getting all retarded when someone says something about Obama you don't like?

quote:

Originally posted by Rowe:

The topic of this discussion is not about members of the Uhuru movement.

Dang girl! you can't stop lying!

quote:

Originally posted by Rowe:

You accused Obama of doing something that he has not done. You did that, and then I addressed it. That is what occured.

What occurred is you got stupid. How stupid is it to insist that something isn't so, JUST BECAUSE *you* said it isn't so? as if nobody's perspective is valid but yours? The only thing you can accurately say is YOU BELIEVE he has not done yada yada yada.

quote:

Every time Obama says something about Black people that doesn't fault Whites

Get your sh*t straight before you open your mouth. Make up your mind what you want to take issue with, decide what your "itch" is all about before sounding utterly stupid.

Your statement above is a shift from what you started out talking about:

quote:

it's obvious Obama can't do anything to please this segment of Black voters. Forget the issues, everything he says or does is first judged on the basis of whether or not he's treating Black voters like non-Black voters.

No. What's obvious is that you're talking out of every side of your mouth. Somehow, what's been noted about the way Obama treats non-Black voters got turned into the bs idea of Obama not faulting Whites. And, last I checked, Obama still claims his White heritage so it's bye, bye to this bs:

quote:

Obama isn't a member of the other cultural groups that you've mentioned.

First of all... I'm still trying to figure out what you think your point is. Obama is a politician and I stated that I expect a politician/Obama to treat ALL groups equally. What exactly is your problem with that and what is your reading problem all about?

quote:

Obama is not going to discuss the same issues with you that he discusses with the Asian... yada... yada...

Where the hell did you ever get a degree at? Don't you ever act like you're responding to me when you're holding a dumbazz conversation with yourself.

NOWHERE... NOWHERE have I said anything about Obama "discussing the same issues" with me/Black folk as he does with anyone else. What you quoted from me insisted on SAME TREATMENT -- i.e. same kind of sensitivity, same kind of approach/consideration for concerns, etc. which Kweli laid out rather nicely:

Politics is no different than any other human endeavor where it is far more productive to praise in public and criticize in private.

By definition, SAME TREATMENT doesn't have to have anything to do with the SAME ISSUES but you sound stupid... Obama has insisted that we all have essentially the SAME ISSUES a la "there is no Black America, there is no White America" (couple that with his "the only way we're going to solve our problems is by working together" and you still get the same result) AND...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAW3TR0PhOo


Now I want to know and see you show me where my "exaggerated characterization" of Obama is. Forget your typical bs allegation. Show me where I've made an "exaggerated characterization" of Obama.

quote:

So, I'm wondering exactly does it mean to address Black issues? What are the limitations or parameters of having a discussion about "Black issues"? Must every discussion about "Black issues" be a discussion that faults White America for Black people's state of affairs? Can Obama or anyone else for that matter ever talk about what Black people can do to improve their existence separate and apart from Whites?

ROWE, you're the only one on this thread having this conversation and it's all because your self-righteous ass can't be bothered with having a freakin' clue. Oh, wait... Kweli made White people and their fears and comfort central to his "strategy" idea and that's about it. No one is talking about "every discussion about Black issues being something where White America is at fault." My very explicit point is that Obama does what a politician running for office does with every other groups but African-Americans and that's talk strictly about what the government is going to do Obama does that even in very specific ways, speaking on very specific policies proposals for that group.

But let's just see if you can make a coherent/intelligent statement.

(1) What's "extreme" about insisting that Obama treats the Black electorate EQUAL to or in the same way he treats every other voting group?
(2) What is the "exaggerated characterization" when you obviously can't say that Obama has treated the Black electorate EQUALLY (because you're trying to justify that UNEQUAL treatement)?
(3) How come you can't freakin' read??

First, this post on the first page is the short and sweet to my position here which has nothing to do with faulting White America:

"...there wouldn't be a perception of Obama not addressing Black issues if he emphasized the specific policies and commitments he plans on making to issues important to African Americans just those in his Black platform alone would do, IMO."

Everything I've said up to and including my Open Letter restates and reaffirms that idea. Second, I'm on record saying the Uhuru brothers were, as Obama said, "misinformed" and have been called an Obama lover because I won't standby when people want to make "exaggerated characterizations" about Obama. But maybe the fact that I'm the first to stipulate to what Obama's record is that makes my views so "extreme."

No, actually. That must be your problem -- i.e. you pulling yourself out of the bs that's in your ideology. Insisting that Obama treat Black voters equal, the same way he treats other voting groups, is an OBJECTIVE STANDARD. Either he has or he has not. I've presented a case that shows how he has not and there's nothing "extremist" or "exaggerated" about that no matter what your logic-adverse azz thinks about my personal, political/philosophical ideology which has little or nothing to do with making the assessment of whether Obama is treating the Black electorate equal to others.

Hell, that's already been accepted as true here even by people who want to defend Obama via the "playing the game" excuse.

quote:

Originally posted by Rowe:

The media is portraying Obama as an anti-Black Black man who hates Black people and has never said a word about Black issues. IT'S ALL A LIE. [/b]

Well, you do know about lies, so, what media would that be Liar? Especially since pundits, panelists, and assorted talking heads have been laudatory towards Obama's recent "get tough with the negroes" stance. Obama is not being portrayed by the mainstream media as an anti-black man. Concerns about Obama's Get Tough On The Negroes to Curry Favor with White Voters approach has been shrugged off by members of the mainstream media.

What media are you talking about Liar?

quote:

The media is portraying Obama as an anti-Black Black man who hates Black people

That's straight BULLSH*T!!!

Talk about EXAGGERATED (hell, completely made up) CHARACTERIZATIONS.

quote:

Originally posted by Rowe:

quote:

Originally posted by negrospiritual:
Did you bother to attempt a "discussion/disagreement without insults"?

I did not personally insult you or anyone else in this discussion. I definitely did not have the nerve to tell someone to shut up or to accuse someone of not having "reading comprehension skills" or of being silly knowing full well that I made statements that warranted a response. You accused Obama of doing something that he has not done. You did that, and then I addressed it. That is what occured.

quote:

Did you bother to voice your disagreement and elaborate on why you disagree?

Oh yes, I most certainly have elaborated on why I disagree with your opinions about Obama. During these discussions I have have posted, reposted, stressed, and emphasized evidence where your opinions about Obama fall short. You haven't addressed them. Rather, YOU choose to focus only on the criticism. YOU choose to filter out everything else.

quote:

Did you bother to provide your opinion about the young brothas from the Uhuru movement upon whom this thread has been based?

The topic of this discussion is not about members of the Uhuru movement. The topic of this discussion is about the media-driven criticism Obama has received for not addressing current Black issues, which was first initiated by the Rev. Wright controversy, and has since morphed into a unyielding entity of its own and is given daily sustenance by people who continue to feed into the media's schemes. However, I do realize that discussions often change from one topic to another, but my response and defense of Obama has been consistently on topic and in line with the topic of this thread and countless others, which often change titles, but are basically the same.

quote:

Rather than provide a meaningful response, you chose to disparage other Black People. You don't even have a principled stance.

If you are unaware of my principled stance, then you haven't been paying attention, which is not surprising considering your information and opinions about Obama reveals a short-sighted attention as well. But not to worry, I can share my principled stance again, which is and has been this:

Rather than allowing the news media, whose sole purpose and malicious intention is to drive an unmending wedge between Obama and his voters, particularly Black voters, who the media KNOWS will unconditionally support him in large numbers, FOCUS ON THE ISSUES. FOCUS ON THE ISSUES. FOCUS ON THE ISSUES, and then FOCUS ON THE ISSUES.

In addition to focusing on the issues, let's better inform ourselves about each candidate's position. After reading many of the articles and posts provided by our members, it is clear that many people are either not paying close attention to the campaign or they are allowing unreliable sources, such as discussion boards, internet articles, friends, and peers to influence their thoughts about presidential candidates.

I have read so much misinformation about Obama it is ridiculous. Obama has talked about Black men being unjustly incarcerated. Obama has talked about his plans for improving the economic welfare of Black Americans, mainly thorugh improving education for innercity youth. Obama has talked about Jena Six until he was blue in the face. Obama has talked about racism, discrimination, slavery, segregration, on and on. All people are doing is relying on the media's depiction of Obama's position. The media is portraying Obama as an anti-Black Black man who hates Black people and has never said a word about Black issues. IT'S ALL A LIE. And you in particular Sister Spiritual have fallen for the only trick the media has to separate Obama from who they know is the only loyal supporter he has: The Black community.

I don't usually like to bring up discussions and responses from other threads, but in this case, it will be very helpful in making an important point. Not too long ago, we had a discussion in the Entertainment & Music forum about Erykah Badu, a neo-soul artist who made the decision to have three kids by three different daddies. I waited a long time before I responded, because I wanted to read and study the criticism. I remember you responded by criticizing Badu for living up or living down to a Black statistic. I'm pretty sure that was a criticism that associated Badu with a negative stereotype of Black women. Now, can we conclude that your criticism of Badu, and in this case, Black women, summarizes your TOTAL perspective about all Black people? In other words, is it fair to conclude that you have a negative view of all African Americans based on your criticism of Badu and Black women in general?

Rowe-Lie-Qwanda,

H I N T: bringing up or linkage to an old thread should emphasize the point you are trying to make. By asserting that NS criticised Badu for living up to or down to a black statistic, when IN FACT, NS did not mention any black statistics, tends to erase all credibility.


Erykah Badu pregnant...Again

NS, you do have to admit that you did quote the "stat" about brothas having "3 or 4 different baby mamas." And... and... and... You said Badu having 3 baby's daddies wasn't consistent with the feminism in her music.

So Rowe was right?



(Running fast to duck behind the biggest piece of furniture in the room.)

quote:

Originally posted by Nmaginate:

NS, you do have to admit that you did quote the "stat" about brothas having "3 or 4 different baby mamas." And... and... and... You said Badu having 3 baby's daddies wasn't consistent with the feminism in her music.

So Rowe was right?



(Running fast to duck behind the biggest piece of furniture in the room.)

*arms akimbo*

*chewing gum*

quote:

Basically, at this juncture, these arguments have become trite, because it's obvious Obama can't do anything to please this segment of Black voters. Forget the issues, everything he says or does is first judged on the basis of whether or not he's treating Black voters like non-Black voters. And when Obama is treating Black voters like he does non-Black voters, another segment of Black voters complain that he doesn't address Black issues personally. Another complaint is that's he's not addressing Black issues at all. So, I'm wondering exactly does it mean to address Black issues? What are the limitations or parameters of having a discussion about "Black issues"? Must every discussion about "Black issues" be a discussion that faults White America for Black people's state of affairs? Can Obama or anyone else for that matter ever talk about what Black people can do to improve their existence separate and apart from Whites? And must every discussion first position the goverment, capitalism, the education system, or some other system as the source of Black people's problems?

You know, Ms. Rowe ....

I can appreciate your (in my personal opinion, over-the-top) enthusiasm over Sen. Obama. I find that a lot of your argument for support for him rings true ... only, in a exaggerated, or perhaps embellished sort of way. However, it's still true, nonetheless.

You're right that Obama does often talk about issues that affect the African American community ... and even, every now and then, speaks of his solutions to these said issues. However ... he rarely, very rarely speaks to them directly in that he very rarely actually says the words, "Black", "African Americans", "the African Amerian community", or "Black issues", etc.

So there's a lot of insinuation there on his part, while you, in your zest, throw that direct inference in there on his behalf.

In his dialog, we are generally referred to as "the disadvantaged" or "the discriminated against" or "minorities" or "the poor/low income" population. We are lumped into the "all Americans" category very often, or if specific terminology is used, it's used in conjunction with everybody else; i.e, "I worked with African Americans, Hispanics, Whites, Asians", etc.

So, when you say that Obama is addressing 'Black issues' .... well, he is and he isn't. Because he addresses them in code .... which, I suspect, comes from his perspective of preferring to address "race" issues from a "class" point of view.

As even you should be willing to admit, Obama has ALWAYS run from race as an issue. Always. He never wanted it mentioned from the start. When it did become an unavoidable issue, he did his best to deflect it from himself and from becoming an issue in his campaign. The one and only speech he offered in a "smother the embers before they ignite" moment was more of a "all y'all got issues, so nobody needs to be pointing their finger at anybody else" attempt to settle things down and put everybody in their place, so he could continue to run with as limited as possible about of drama involved.

And yes, I do think Black people want to be/think that they are special and want special treatment ... especially from someone who is labeled as a "Black candidate" whether that label is self-identified or not. Black people in America should be the premier definition of a "special interest group' due to the uniqueness of our situation.

While many are just now getting upset at Obama's dancing around the race issue, I have always been disappointed by his diminished attention specifically to the Black community and have complained about it almost from the beginning. But, not having blinders on all this time has given me the chance to see where he's really coming from, and given me a clearer look at where (I think) it appears he is going.

While I would definitely prefer a more "Black enough" version of Sen. Obama, I believe that through his intellectual prowess (he is an extraordinarily smart man) he will address "Black issues" - without ever calling it that - through an agenda and policies of class and economics.

I think he is "Black enough" to recognize racial disparities, but smart enough to know he can never address them in those terms, due to the irrational rebellion of Whites against doing so. And that is why, when you say things like Obama has talked about things like "Black incarceration rates" and "Black men being unjustly imprisoned" and "focused on improving economic opportunities for Black people" there is only a half truth in that, because he doesn't use the distinction of "Black/African American" when he is speaking nearly as much as you do.

It is implied, though. But not nearly as specific as you seem to think it is.

quote:

I can appreciate your (in my personal opinion, over-the-top) enthusiasm over Sen. Obama.

Thank you Ebony for maturely expressing your thoughts about my response, which is why I have decided to respond to your post and not the others; however, I haven't expressed any over-the-top enthusiasm. I am only being just as consistent about supporting Obama against the lies that are being told about him as some people are being persistent about defaming his character. And apparently, their enthusiasm is a lot stronger than mine, because I haven't invested as nearly as much time defending Obama as they have invested in collectively waiting for his demise.

quote:

When you say things like Obama has talked about things like "Black incarceration rates" and "Black men being unjustly imprisoned" and "focused on improving economic opportunities for Black people" there is only a half truth in that, because...

Listen, I appreciate your response Sis. Ebony, but this is getting absolutely ridiculous. It's obvious that no matter how many times I address the misinformation that's being given about Obama, another excuse for why he shouldn't be supported will replace the one before it. Some members have just made it up in their minds, regardless of what others say, that Obama is not doing enough to earn the Black vote. And I think the media is working over time to plant and fertilize this seed of doubt in the minds of his supporters, because the media, preferring things to stay the way they've always been, knows what is at stake if Obama wins.

Regardless of what you think about Obama, if he wins this election, then his presidency will create more opportunities for people who aren't White, privileged, and male. In November, that is what I'll be voting for. I won't be voting for Obama. I will be voting for future opportunities and a change, even if its a very small change, in America's leadership and power.

quote:

Originally posted by Rowe:
It's obvious that no matter what I say in Obama's defense, another excuse for why he shouldn't be supported will replace the one before it.

I don't think anyone here is actually trying to discourage support for Obama, Ms. Rowe. I see it as more of an expression of (a shared) disappointment in him, due to overly high expectations of what we thought we'd be seeing from him at this point in the campaign.

I think there is criticism of him (sometimes just, sometimes not), but ..... the bottom bottom line of all of this is that Obama doesn't have to earn our vote.

Obama will be voted for (supported) by Black people regardless of their feelings about him at this or any other particular time.

#1 - Black people are going to vote and vote for the Democratic nominee, no matter what;

#2 - Black people are going to vote against the Republican nominee because we know it's in our best interest to do so, no matter what.

#3 - Black people have voted for worse nominees than Obama ... because that nominee was the Democratic choice on the ballot.

And in the end, this is bigger than Obama vs. McCain. Ultimately, this is about the Democratic agenda vs. the Republican agenda, because when all is said and done, that's really all we have.

Whether or not Obama will do anything specifically for Black America is a secondary consideration for whether or not we spend the next 4-8 years living under Democratic or Republican rule.

And unlike White folks, cutting off our nose to spite our face is rarely a viable option for us. What is in our best interest usually overrules our trivial independent idiosyncrasies ... at least when it comes to voting. And Thank God for that.

quote:

Originally posted by EbonyRose:
#1 - Black people are going to vote and vote for the Democratic nominee, no matter what;

#2 - Black people are going to vote against the Republican nominee because we know it's in our best interest to do so, no matter what.

#3 - Black people have voted for worse nominees than Obama ... because that nominee was the Democratic choice on the ballot.

As important as Black issues are to Black people, can we try to look past the interest of Black people for just second, please? Let's think about how Obama's election will impact future generations. Let's think about how electing him will create opportunities for women. Once we get Obama in and out of his term, let's think about how the images of seeing him as president on television, in the media, visiting countries overseas, visiting and conferring with presidents of other countries, etc. will inspire females and children of other races to rise up and be leaders of their community, to believe in themselves, and believe they can actually be someone important not just to their neighborhood, but to the whole world. Let's focus our attention on that. We have to graduate past our thoughts and feeling about Obama not acting Black enough. Move on. We have to think about how his becoming president will change and has already changed so many people's (and childrens') thoughts and attitudes about what women and non Whites are capable of accomplishing. That's what is important.

Honestly, considering what Black people have endured and continue to endure, no president can ever do enough to address our issues, because they are so deeply rooted in the structure and fabric of this society. And that's what people are not admitting to themselves. Their expectations will never be satisfied and their needs are insatiable. That's why instead of placing so much of our faith in Obama and his presidency, we need to think about the future and what future generations, if only given a chance, can do to help resolve these issues in the long run.

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will inspire females and children of other races to rise up and be leaders of their community, to believe in themselves, and believe they can actually be someone important

why do you believe this?

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Originally posted by listener:

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will inspire females and children of other races to rise up and be leaders of their community, to believe in themselves, and believe they can actually be someone important

why do you believe this?

I believe this, because the same images that Whites have used, for centuries, to empower themselves and encourage the abilities of their children are the same images that can be used to inspire our children and encourage their abilities. It's already happeninig. I work with very young children on a regular basis. And if you really want to know why so many Black boys aspire to be atheletes and rappers and famous actors, it is because those are the most prevalent images of successful Black men they see in their community and in the ominiscent media. What would happen if these often times unavoidable images were more diverse? What would happen if instead of a Black child turning on the television to see yet another White male in power, orchestrating how their schools will assess them and how teachers will teach, a Black man or a Black WOMAN was calling the shots and implementing programs for the nation's schools? Their self concept would significantly change and it is changing. Black children are now reevaluating what used to be unrealistic career choices. Obama is not perfect. I know that. And considering America is still very much a race-conscious society in which there is still so much room for improvement, I don't expect Obama to meet all of my expectations, but his running for office is better than nothing. It is a start. And if we can just get him in and out, then we can get people comfortable and used to seeing images of Blacks, WOMEN, and others in positions of power and leadership.

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Originally posted by Rowe:

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Originally posted by EbonyRose:
#1 - Black people are going to vote and vote for the Democratic nominee, no matter what;

#2 - Black people are going to vote against the Republican nominee because we know it's in our best interest to do so, no matter what.

#3 - Black people have voted for worse nominees than Obama ... because that nominee was the Democratic choice on the ballot.

As important as Black issues are to Black people, can we try to look past the interest of Black people for just second, please? Let's think about how Obama's election will impact future generations. Let's think about how electing him will create opportunities for women. Once we get Obama in and out of his term, let's think about how the images of seeing him as president on television, in the media, visiting countries overseas, visiting and conferring with presidents of other countries, etc. will inspire females and children of other races to rise up and be leaders of their community, to believe in themselves, and believe they can actually be someone important not just to their neighborhood, but to the whole world. Can we think about? We have to graduate past our thoughts and feeling about Obama not acting Black enough. We have to think about how his becoming president will change and has already changed so many people's (and childrens') thoughts and attitudes about what women and non Whites are capable of accomplishing.

All that is well and good, Ms. Rowe. And you get no argument nor doubt from me that all that you have just said above is true and can/will happen and all benefits thereof can/will be realized from an Obama presidency. I'm wit it! 100%.

HOWEVER .... I'm sorry, but NO!!!! (And make that HEYLL NO!!!) Looking past the interest of Black people for even a nanosecond is and will always be absolutely out of the question!!

"Looking past the interest of Black people" is and will never be acceptable in any form ... and is why we are where we are ... from the Black and White side of that track ... today.

I'm willing to accept all that you say as a benefit of an Obama presidency in addition to "Looking out for the interest of Black people."

But what does/does not happen to/for the Black community by any person or entity is first, foremost, and exclusionary above any- and everything else. Obama and his candidacy included.

Period.

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Originally posted by EbonyRose:
But what does/does not happen to/for the Black community by any person or entity is first, foremost, and exclusionary above any- and everything else. Obama and his candidacy included.

Period.

I've long since abandoned racially exclusivist thinking, not because I think Black issues are unimportant, but because I realize that Black people could accomplish so much more if only they would expand their interests. Even though not enough attention is paid to issues affecting the Black community, we still cannot respond to ignorance by being ingorant and adopting racially exclusivist thinking, because if we do, then we're no better than the White supremist who also thinks the world is under his dominion and it should revolve around his interests and his issues.

Personally, I am not going to reduce myself by adopting the inhumane mentality of the White suprmacist. I know that I am better than that, and I choose to adhere to a higher state of being, because I know the world doesn't belong to Whites. It doesn't belong to Blacks or Africans, Asians, or American Natives. The world belongs to all of us, and we all have a duty to respect one another's rights to live in it, as we please. Therefore, ideally, everyone's issues should be at forefront and given equal attention. If they had been, then we wouldn't have as many problems in the world as we have today. Regardless of whether you're black or white, selfishly thinking of just yourself and no one else has to stop at some point. Otherwise, nothing is ever going to change for you, for them, or our children.

Rather than just thinking about how your life has been affected by years of being excluded from positions of leadership and power, think about how others have been affected. America is just a spot of existence in the vast landscape of the world. If you think African Americans have suffered from racial injustice, gross brutality, and poverty, then you'd be floored by the experiences of Blacks and people of color in the diaspora. Moreover, there's a time and place for every conversation. It would be helpful, even to the Black community, to sometimes discuss important issues and events that are affecting people globally.

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Originally posted by Rowe:
I've long since abandoned racially exclusivist thinking, not because I think Black issues are unimportant, but because I realize that Black people could accomplish so much more if only they would expand their interests.

I'm saddened to hear this. But nothing explains your uncompromising support for Obama better than this statement. I understand your perspective so much better now.

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The world belongs to all of us, and we all have a duty to respect one another's rights to live in it as we please.

Once that respect is accorded to African Americans in the same way it is dispensed to all others, I may be able to find a way to agree with you, my sister.

It is always Black people who are asked to bend, bow and break for the betterment and benefit of the greater good of everybody else.

When can we expect others to bow, bend or break for us?

Apparently never. And that seems to be okay for you. For me it's unacceptable, though.

Here's a YouTube of Senator Obama at the 2007 NAACP Democratic Candidates Forum <<< video >>>

Besides that:

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Remarks of Senator Barack Obama: Howard University Convocation
Washington, DC | September 28, 2007

Like Katrina did with poverty, Jena exposed glaring inequities in our justice system that were around long before that schoolyard fight broke out. It reminds us of the fact that we have a system that locks away too many young, first-time, non-violent offenders for the better part of their lives - a decision that's made not by a judge in a courtroom, but by politicians in Washington. It reminds us that we have certain sentences that are based less on the kind of crime you commit than on what you look like and where you come from. It reminds us that we have a Justice Department whose idea of prosecuting civil rights violations is trying to rollback affirmative action programs at our college and universities; a Justice Department whose idea of prosecuting voting rights violations is to look for voting fraud in black and Latino communities where it doesn't exist.

http://www.barackobama.com/2007/09/28/remarks_of_senator_barack_obam_26.php

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Remarks of Senator Barack Obama: Changing the Odds for Urban America
Washington, DC | July 18, 2007

What's most overwhelming about urban poverty is that it's so difficult to escape - it's isolating and it's everywhere. If you are an African-American child unlucky enough to be born into one of these neighborhoods, you are most likely to start life hungry or malnourished. You are less likely to start with a father in your household, and if he is there, there's a fifty-fifty chance that he never finished high school and the same chance he doesn't have a job. Your school isn't likely to have the right books or the best teachers. You're more likely to encounter gang-activities than after-school activities. And if you can't find a job because the most successful businessman in your neighborhood is a drug dealer, you're more likely to join that gang yourself. Opportunity is scarce, role models are few, and there is little contact with the normalcy of life outside those streets.

http://www.barackobama.com/2007/07/18/remarks_of_senator_barack_obam_19.php

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I've long since abandoned racially exclusivist thinking, not because I think Black issues are unimportant, but because I realize that Black people could accomplish so much more if only they would expand their interests. Even though not enough attention is paid to issues affecting the Black community, you still cannot respond to ignorance by adopting racially exclusivist thinking. If you do, then you're no better than the White supremist who also thinks the world is under his dominion and it should revolve around him and his interests and issues.

This is not a "mature" response or one that reflects with any degree of accuracy what is at issue here or what is being communicated when Black people insist on having their issues and concerns addressed. It's a simple matter of political efficacy and to frame that desire as "racially exclusivist" and to dare compare that with White supremacist thinking is a spit in the face of people who have not communicated anything like the bs you mention.

This nonsense of yours makes even less sense when you have an issue not with anyone (me) communicating any such "racially exclusivist thinking" but you act like there was something wrong with the idea of Obama being "judged on the basis of whether or not he's treating Black voters like non-Black voters."

WOW!!! Imagine that. By definition, that acknowledges that Obama has, can and should address other people and issues that are important to them. You just had a problem with the idea of Black people figuring they/we should be treated EQUALLY. Of course, you have a long history of those kind of issues...

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"...as long as you are a minority in this country Nmaginate, you will NEVER have the same priviledges as whites. Rest assured. This is a reality that you must embrace and accept... you must defer to certain accommodations so that you can survive in this society."

http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/79160213/m...541023391#4541023391

To be clear, you've had an issue with seeing African-Americans as EQUALS for quite some time.

@Rowe

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I don't expect Obama to meet all of my expectations

normally I am a supporter of a participatory democracy but when it comes to America, at least white America, I am really not so sure about it because I believe that most white Americans just don't have the maturity to vote. Their only interest is their own f*cking azz and they are even too stupid or too lazy to get informed before they support something (eg war on Iraq) or oppose something (eg Affirmative Action). But they can be really silent when it comes to so-called "Black issues" like police brutality, because white Americans aren't concerned that their tax money is used for state sanctioned murder and to support a corrupt justice system.

Indeed, Obama is running as president for entire America. Last time I checked, Black Americans were part of America. And when Black people rise questions about issues which affect Black America, they mention issues, which affect entire America, even if white America as a collective don't get this. "Black questions" and demands are legitimate questions and there is no reason to single out Black fathers or to ignore and somehow belittle Black people at a convention, when you KNOW that Obama wouldn't do this to white people (something like "vote for somebody else if you don't like my connection with Rev. Wright") or any other group because he couldn't.
But I expect from him the same like from anybody else, that he please is fair to all people.

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normally I am a supporter of a participatory democracy but when it comes to America, at least white America, I am really not so sure about it because I believe that most white Americans just don't have the maturity to vote. Their only interest is their own f*cking azz and they are even too stupid or too lazy to get informed before they support something (eg war on Iraq) or oppose something (eg Affirmative Action).

I cannot even imagine what has made you so jaded against the world, that you need to generalize a race based on the actions of a few people. Have we not realized that this has caused problems in the past.

To blindly state that white America does not care about anyone but themselves is ignorant. Just look at the figures, 1.6 billion in one year contradicts your point.

Jlokes, the majority of White people supported the war in Iraq and, by all appearances, didn't give a damn then if innocent Iraqis suffered or died in the process and, apparently, don't give a damn now about the lives of innocent Iraqis who died in the war.

Matter of fact, it seemed pretty clear that most White Americans had a problem with Rev. Jeremiah Wright highlighting the history of American "terrorism" up to and including the killing innocent people in Iraq.

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I'm saddened to hear this.

Sister, you don't need to be sad on my behalf. My consciousness is balanced and at peace. Be sad for those who have a one-track mind and are still holding themselves captive to race supremacist thinking. Some of us think that because we're on the side of the disadvantaged and the oppressed that we're entitled to embrace race supremacist thinking, but regardless of whether you're black or white, race supremacy is wrong. And you're never going to experience freedom as long as you keep yourselves in bondage under the spirit of hatred, resentment, anger, victimization, and self-entitlement. Freedom is not going to happen for you. Forget it. I used to be a Black race supremacist. There was a time when I refused to even have a conversation with a white person. A white person couldn't do nothing for me except to get out of my way. That is how hardcore I was. But then I grew up, and I realized how stupid that was, especially after realizing that not all White people are ignorant and there are some Black people who are even more ignorant than some Whites. Today, I embrace a humanitarian mentality. When I encounter someone who is racist (and of course I still do) there is a way to humanely deal with that individual without sacrficing my character and values. But I'm interested in all of humanity changing and improving, because, honestly, all of us could do a lot more to better our lives and improve conditions in the world.

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Originally posted by EbonyRose:
It is always Black people who are asked to bend, bow and break for the betterment and benefit of the greater good of everybody else. When can we expect others to bow, bend or break for us?

Let's be clear, I never asked Black people or any other race for that matter to bow to the other. In fact, self interest and race supremacy is what I've been arguing against. I said that, ideally, everyone's issues would receive the attention they deserve. And if they had, then we wouldn't have as nearly as many problems in our world as we have today, specifically on-going wars and racism. Please remember that I also clearly stated in my response that Black issues aren't given the attention they deserve. And by the way, it is possible to be concerned about the welfare of people in the diaspora and also to be concerned for those in your community. It doesn't have to be a choice between one or the other.