What is "truth"? Who defines it? Is truth universal? Conditional? Is there only one truth or many? What do you think?



There is no passion to be found playing small, in settling for a life that is less than the one you are capable of living. - Mandela

[This message was edited by MBM on August 19, 2003 at 12:46 PM.]

WHAT IS TRUTH

Johnny Cash

The old man turned off the radio
Said, "Where did all of the old songs go
Kids sure play funny music these days
They play it in the strangest ways"
Said, "it looks to me like they've all gone wild
It was peaceful back when I was a child"
Well, man, could it be that the girls and boys
Are trying to be heard above your noise?
And the lonely voice of youth cries "What is truth?"

A little boy of three sittin' on the floor
Looks up and says, "Daddy, what is war?"
"son, that's when people fight and die"
The little boy of three says "Daddy, why?"
A young man of seventeen in Sunday school
Being taught the golden rule
And by the time another year has gone around
It may be his turn to lay his life down
Can you blame the voice of youth for asking
"What is truth?"

A young man sittin' on the witness stand
The man with the book says "Raise your hand"
"Repeat after me, I solemnly swear"
The man looked down at his long hair
And although the young man solemnly swore
Nobody seems to hear anymore
And it didn't really matter if the truth was there
It was the cut of his clothes and the length of his hair
And the lonely voice of youth cries
"What is truth?"

The young girl dancing to the latest beat
Has found new ways to move her feet
The young man speaking in the city square
Is trying to tell somebody that he cares
Yeah, the ones that you're calling wild
Are going to be the leaders in a little while
This old world's wakin' to a new born day
And I solemnly swear that it'll be their way
You better help the voice of youth find
"What is truth"

"La vida te da sorpresas...
Sorpresas te da la vida...",
¡Ay, Dios!

Rubén Blades---Pedro Navaja

Plowshares Actions
The Nuclear Resister
School of the Americas Watch

Johnny Cash?

Ricardo, what did they tell you about messing with a black man's radio. You can get killed around here for that!

Just kidding, lol.

"I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don’t believe in brotherhood with anybody who doesn’t want brotherhood with me. I believe in treating people right, but I’m not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn’t know how to return the treatment." Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (aka Malcolm X)

quote:

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Originally posted by Khalilallah:
Johnny Cash?

Ricardo, what did they tell you about messing with a black man's radio. You can get killed around here for that!

Just kidding, lol.

---

Although I can't stand C&W, I did actually have a couple of Johnny Cash Albums when I was a kid. This song wasn't on them, though. The albums were older. Songs like "I Walk the Line" and "Ring of Fire", or something like that.

"La vida te da sorpresas...
Sorpresas te da la vida...",
¡Ay, Dios!

Rubén Blades---Pedro Navaja

Plowshares Actions
The Nuclear Resister
School of the Americas Watch

Could someone please post an example of what they believe to be a universal "truth"?

Sorry for getting everyone off track.

What is "truth"?

A factual, relevant belief according to the society in which one belongs. Taking a shot at it without a dictionary. It is just my belief as to what it is.

Who defines it?

My wife. Seriously, I think it is the powerful part of society.


Is truth universal?

I can not say that it is. While one culture believes that you should do one thing, there is always another that believes the opposite.

Conditional? Is there only one truth or many?

Definetly conditional. The truth of many white Americans is that democracy is for all Americans. The truth for blacks and others, that it is a conditional democracy based on the whims of the majority populace.

As many cultures as there are in this world there are many truths. Am I making any sense? That is at least my version of the truth...

"I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don’t believe in brotherhood with anybody who doesn’t want brotherhood with me. I believe in treating people right, but I’m not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn’t know how to return the treatment." Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (aka Malcolm X)

quote:

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Originally posted by Khalilallah:


Who defines it?

My wife.

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LMBAO!!! Ain't that the "truth"!!!



There is no passion to be found playing small, in settling for a life that is less than the one you are capable of living. - Mandela

Truth is based purely upon perspective, which is created by your society when you are very young. What is true is based upon what society tells you is true. Some may argue, red is red, and that is true, but that might not be true to a different species that sees colors in different ways. So its all about perspective.

One must start with a consensus in regards to the “definition” of a given phenomenon. Without a consensus of definition, then what is true is thus dependant upon each individuals working definition that they start from. For example one could make the proposition that the US is a terrorist sponsoring state. There are many who would say that such a proposition is false, because they are working from a different and often "fluid" definition of the term "terrorist", to suit their or their groups agenda.

I think that the concept of “Truth” only exist as a result of the existence of the concept of “False” and visa versa. If not for deceit and or ignorance, there would just exist “reality” or “what is”. Truth and falsity in the context of phenomenon that represent absolute concepts, such as living or dead, represents mutually exclusive binary options. Thus, to say that something is dead (assuming a consensus in the definition) is true if the something is void of life and false if the something manifest life. However, truth and falsity in the context outside of absolute phenomenon cannot be categorized as absolute truths or falsities. For example one could say that people in prison are there because they commit crimes. That proposition is both true and false because some people are in prison for committing crimes while others are in jail for being falsely accused of committing a crime.

Thus, in the context of non-absolute phenomenon and propositions of truth and falsity, the GREATER TRUTH of competing truths, or the general rule, is what manifests as TRUTH. Mostly, the human condition is not absolute as a result of our uniqueness as individuals, notwithstanding our universalities that absolutely define us into the human species. Consequently, exceptions to the rule of humanity always exist as lesser truths to the general truth or the truth that represents the highest percentage of the totality of a phenomenon. It must be understood in debate that absolutism is rare and thus the benchmark for truth is simply a statement or proposition that represent a truth that is truer than other truths. For example, although it is true that some blacks in America actually owned black slaves, when 99% of slave owners were white, the statment is virtually false due to its rarity and small percentage of the total phenomenon.

Often times, debaters never reach agreement due to the fact that they try and turn the debate into absolutism, when the topic is not a phenomenon that manifest in absolutes. Thus, each counter proposition is actually both true and false to one degree or another. I would thus say that truth is non-absolutes is simply a proposition that has the higher degree of truth and the least degree of falsity.

Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


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Noah The African in America

[This message was edited by Noah The African on August 20, 2003 at 06:33 AM.]

MBM, the existance of the sun is a universal truth. Even if a person is blind and cannot see the sun or the stars and sky, they exist as truths none the less.

Its kind of like when a toddler covers their eyes and cannot see, then assume also that he or she cannot be seen (to exist at that moment...invisible). If we as humans do not see the universal truth, it does not mean that the universal truth does not exist...for truth is simply realities of existance.

Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


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_..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
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Noah The African in America

Noah, I see what your saying but what if all were blind, then only what we touch, hear and smell would be the truth. There is no one to say otherwise. Is it not true? So the Sun can not be a universal truth.

What is universal truth in my opinion? Is one's sense of self existence.

"I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don’t believe in brotherhood with anybody who doesn’t want brotherhood with me. I believe in treating people right, but I’m not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn’t know how to return the treatment." Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (aka Malcolm X)

Though GOD may not be seen by some as an Absolute Truth... I will suggest that the Divine Intelligence - aka Supreme BE-ing - is Universal.

Therein lies the conflict between the objective and the subjective. Objectively, if we can say that GOD is universal, Subjectively we may have very different interpretations on how GOD relates to us and what our appropriate/approximate relationship is with GOD.

To me, again assuming as I at least will that GOD is Universal, that's how it seems that there are no absolutes or no "truths".

There are fundamental laws that tie everything together, Noah's (i.e. Newton's) Equal & Opposite Reactions... that's is TRUTH. However the limits of our finite reasoning when addressing the infinite possibilities or manifestations of even the same "reality" places our grasp of the truth still inches away from a secure clutch. That is what our "BE-ing" is all about, IMO.

To constantly search for, strive for, thirst for definitive TRUTH. The problem then comes in applying "TRUTH" to our dynamic/changing lives and understanding. It is not the truth that changes or becomes relative. It is we who do the changing and we who are relative to or rather relating to the "TRUTH" in different ways...

(Okay... now that I've confused myself, I will dispense with playing Socrates. )

*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*
"One of the things that made the Black Muslim movement grow
was its emphasis upon things African. This was the secret to the growth
of the Black Muslim movement.
*African blood, African origin, African culture, African ties.*
And you'd be surprised...
We discovered that deep within the subconscious of the black man in this country , he is still more African than he is American.

- Malcolm X, February 14, 1965

Kh, as I pointed out, one must start with a consensus of definition, first and foremost. Your definition of truth seems to be based upon “perception” as many say that perception IS reality and hence “Truth”. My definition of truth is not BOUND by perception. There is a philosophical question that goes: “If a tree falls in the forest and no ones hears it, does it make any sound?” Based upon your definition of truth you are likely to say that it does not, because you view human perception, via human sensory receptors, as a prerequisite to truth and reality. However, I would say that sound was created but just not perceived via stimulus input into human sensory receptors.

I have read several of your responses in regards to religion. Based upon your proposition in regards to what is true, you have no bases to believe in God, for none of your sensory receptors has seen, felt, smelled, heard or tasted the all mighty directly, thus, how can you believe in the spirit and its presence?

Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


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(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-'
_..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
(((' (((-((('' ((((
Noah The African in America

Good point, except that should we start with a consensus of definition then there is no universal truth. It is our definition of the truth.

The prerequisite to universal truth is universal belief, something that can not be denied. The idea that we exist in our own minds, is that universal truth, not an object or a belief.

As for the belief in a diety? It is not a universal truth, for there are some that do not believe in the existence of one... I define that there is, and because I said so, it is. A statement that everyone would deny...

"I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don’t believe in brotherhood with anybody who doesn’t want brotherhood with me. I believe in treating people right, but I’m not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn’t know how to return the treatment." Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (aka Malcolm X)

Okay... help me out here...
I don't know which side of this you are arguing for. Could you explain?

quote:

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Noah, I see what your saying but what if all were blind, then only what we touch, hear and smell would be the truth. There is no one to say otherwise. Is it not true? So the Sun can not be a universal truth.

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Are you in agreement with Noah's "Universal Sun" Theory or not?

And how is GOD's Universe and his Universal Laws which created the SUN and perpetuate it supposed to be limited to our consciousness of it. Does the sun stop when we become unconscious? Did the SUN come into existence once we perceived it?

How can we, the CREATED, determine what is the CREATION by our own minds if the CREATOR made the CREATION without the "benefit" of our help.

Who are we to say what is real, absolute and/or Universal or TRUTH except that it be revealed to us by the CREATOR and/or the rest of the CREATION?

Man, why are you picking on me, lol? Jump from thread to thread to engage me. Why not wait until the debate starts...

Read my posts and you shall see. I answered them clearly as Noah was able to respond intellegently to it...

"I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don’t believe in brotherhood with anybody who doesn’t want brotherhood with me. I believe in treating people right, but I’m not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn’t know how to return the treatment." Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (aka Malcolm X)

Point(s) well taken and valid, however, when we say “Universal” what is the definition of that. Do we mean universal to human perception and understanding or universal to nature and its laws? Some theorist believe that the “universe” can be broken down into numbers, as we have done with physics, and other phenomenon and thus, prove out truths of the universe.

I do believe that universal truths in nature do exist, notwithstanding human perception and ignorance to them. Nature and the universe and its laws of truth were created long before humans and human perceptions. What is thus true in nature is what has been true in nature before our existence. As we evolve, our understanding of the universal laws of nature improves, via our ability to PROVE certain phenomenon and thus the PROOF, is what makes it TRUE. However, it was still universally true, before humans evolved the intelligence to PROVE it as a truth.

Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
`6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`)
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-'
_..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
(((' (((-((('' ((((
Noah The African in America

Those are valid points that Nmaginate presented. I simply gave Kh the benefit of the doubt by assuming what he meant, for it was slightly ambiguous.

Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
`6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`)
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-'
_..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
(((' (((-((('' ((((
Noah The African in America

Fine.

If the only thing we have which is to define truth, then there will be many different definitions. Thus, no universal truth.

Understand?

This includes things that exist.

With me so far?

So the only universal truth is that we exist to make definitions of what truly exist, to us.

Understood?

The Sun can not be a universal truth should one decide that it does not exist.

"I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don’t believe in brotherhood with anybody who doesn’t want brotherhood with me. I believe in treating people right, but I’m not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn’t know how to return the treatment." Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (aka Malcolm X)

quote:

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The prerequisite to universal truth is universal belief, something that can not be denied. The idea that we exist in our own minds, is that universal truth, not an object or a belief.

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TRUTH is not contigent on one's acceptance or recoginition of it. It makes no difference whether someone denies it or not. Again, TRUTH is not based on human conscious knowledge of it. If so, TRUTH could never exist because ever newborn generation would have to weigh in before we could ever arrive at the "truth"... And because new generations continue to be born we will be eternally waiting for their... acceptance or denial.

Khalil... I think we (YOU) do need to lay down a definition of what the "TRUTH" is as you define it.

Out of curiousity...
Did Adam (the first man) have to accept or agree to what GOD created for "it" to be TRUTH??
(That's for intellectual ideas, physical/natural laws - i.e. Laws Of Nature, etc.)