|
Go
|
New
|
Find
|
Notify
|
Tools
|
Reply
|
|
A2 |
Nike has a cute saying in their advertisements that I think would apply here:
"Just Do It" Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society Malcolm X, 1965 |
|||
|
A1 |
Yssys, that feeling does build in your gut. Repatriation is "burning in the gut" for most of us. And once again we get caught up in the uniqueness of our circumstance. I think a part of the problem is that we are only now "slipping" into the garment of socio-political power. Not to be "high-sounding" about, but we are only now beginning to own the political power of numbers, the uniqueness of our impact on America's social structure, and the distinction of our place and value as a native culture. We are only now realizing that African America is a uniquely native to America as Iroquois, Hopi, and Souix.
Building African America into a shaped entity that meets the requirements of its people is very critical. Building that is where this thread is swinging. That's great. The people talking here are each coming from very different places that are becoming less different the the talk continues. That's unity is, a coming together from differnt places. Political awareness and eventual political unity is already agreed as being an early step to meet any goal of "repatriation." It is certainly essential to any effort that can be successful in our within our nation. I am inclined to support the gathering of political power by fcreating an Independent Player in American politics. Exert our political clout from outside the national committees of all parties. In fact, the position should be outside the boards of directors of all currently positioned organizations focused on African Americans in particular, but also minorities in general. The reason is "stuff." Every organization has "stuff." Stuff Protect. Stuff to Control. Stuff of Manage. Stuff to Buy. Stuff to Sell. Just "stuff." Establishing such a new perspective doesn't need "stuff." It needs unfettered support. And we can do it. PEACE Jim Chester You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are. |
|||
|
|
A1 |
222:
________________________________________________ What?  [/QUOTE]________________________________________________ Apparently you disagree. With what? PEACE Jim Chester You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are. |
|||
|
A1 |
quote:MBM, I'm not in disagreement with you per se. However, you and I both know that speaking about "leveraging our vote" is seen as a means to an end that does not include a mindset of "nationhood". Clearly, that must be a definited, defined goal. Otherwise, people will definitely stop short of it. Like, I said... Whatever works. So I'm more than willing to participate in that "political process". I just think that would not be the mindset of most who would participate. Speaking of "embracing" the system seems to suggest that we do more of the same, but just increase or do more of it - i.e. register more Blacks to vote. I, humbly ask, register more people to vote for what? I'm more or less speaking from a national point-of-view. Certainly, the local dynamics are very different and much more tangible in certain instances. And when everyone is ready to vote, personally, I find it disheartening that the only options is to put our trust in others for 4 years or so and HOPE they will respond to us. That has happened so many times and what has that gotten us. I feel like that "political process" is a major compromise to our objectives which should all be based on self-determination and not relying on our relative political clout to sway Ceasar. We all no that campaign promises are meant to be broken, esp. in this day and age where no White politician wants to known as a "panderer" to [Black] special interest. I think its crazy to ignore the huge signal both parties have sent us of the last 20 plus years. "Yeah, thanks Jesse for those extra votes you got us. Sorry we won't be able to do anything specifically for Black folk. We got a whole country/population to tend to you know..." That's just my view of "the system"... Nevertheless, I'm willing to participate and ironically we do have to be more politically active in the system to help lay the ground-work for any transition. My only concern is getting bogged down or seeing that as the only alternative worth our investment. I guess that's called throwing our eggs in one basket... I don't that's the most desirable scenario. |
|||
|
A1 |
We could pick MBM’s choice of Georgia as the Target state if one would like. When I proposed the “Mississippi Plan†on “the black world today†Forum, someone from Virginia suggested we use Virginia as the target state. All would work, but I do believe Mississippi’s small population, rural nature and currently being the state currently with the highest percentage of blacks, makes the state easier to convert to the proposed model.
Let us not fool ourselves about Georgia and Atlanta. The growth in the African American population in Atlanta is fueled by white corporate America’s relocation and creation of jobs in that area and blacks have simply followed the bread crumbs their looking for opportunities, but not creating the opportunities that are employing and thus financing the feasibility of their relocation. Consequently, Georgia is only a black Mecca primarily due to Georgia being a business opportunity Mecca for white corporate America, for Atlanta is also a white Mecca, with many more whites relocating there each year than blacks. Thus, if we want to build a black state in Georgia, it would be much more difficult to “turn off†the flow of white people and white corporations to that area. Mississippi, on the other hand, is a state that has little interest from white corporate America or anyone else, for that matter. If simply just 5% of African Americans relocated to Mississippi in the next decade, all other population trends remaining the same, the state of Mississippi would be around 70% black and blacks would have complete political control via plurality. Also, the propensity of white not to live under black control would expedite white flight from that state, further augmenting black political autonomy as a state. However, the key to this plan has the prerequisite of black economic job creations, as much as, if not more, than just political control. For a business, the only way that business can profit is to have its expenses lower than its revenue. For a economic entity such as a nation or autonomous state, the only way for the nation or state to prosper is to export more than it imports (ignoring the US trade deficit and balance of accounts). Thus, in order to increase the standard of living of the population of Mississippi, the black business must produce and export more dollar value of goods and services than it imports. Not until a political entity can produce 90% of all the goods and services that it needs and consumes, will it reach the point of independence. The reason that African and Caribbean nations remain impoverished is due to the fact that they must import the majority of goods and services that it consumes and the value of what it exports falls short of balancing out the two. Thus they end up borrowing money from the same nations it buying products and services from. Much of the borrowed money then goes to buy more goods and services from these nations, thereby creating jobs and income for the exporting nations, plus, creating money from interest earned on the loans, which goes back into the economy of the lending nation. It’s a cycle that keeps black independent political units, economically dependant upon the Anglo-Saxons. The real and true control or independence comes as a product of economic realities and not political ones, although the two do work in concert. Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( Noah The African in America |
|||
|
|
A1 |
Nmaginate:
Chiming in until MBM responds: I am also for taking the initiative in the use of the political power of African Americans. My read of MBM is that he is as well, but he will speak for himself. I think voter registration drives are great. They should continue to be done. But, what we are talking about here is different. We are talking about putting a position in the politics of America, now. Happens when something is placed into the system that can be seen. Otherwise there is no effect. Typically, some person or group of persons are needed to make an impact. There must be some entity that grabs the attention of the political power base. A position paper can do that. The subject must be about a political force that is either the target of the paper, or states the intent to use the leverage of the political force. Someone has to draft that position paper. That someone must represent some group of persons, and/or businesses. Like Yssys says, "Just do it." PEACE Jim Chester You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are. |
|||
|
Founder |
quote: How? Respectfully, I think a "self determination or nothing" approach is immature, at best. It suggests an "all or nothing" approach that denies folks something today for a goal which may be Quixotic. Further, just how do folks think we're going to achieve self determination anyway? Is our military going to "take over"? Are we going to lobby the U.N. for rights? Are we going to just ask (pretty please with sugar on top!)? Let's even say that the United States facilitates our exit, do we think that a nation in Africa is going to just roll the red carpet out for us because we tell them we're coming? Why? How? From what basis will we negotiate for our new Camelot? In my opinion, whatever your end game, it's ALL about political process and power. How is being more active and smarter politically at cross purposes with self-determination? Won't self determination require all the skills and abilities that "working the system" requires? quote: Not sure. I think if the goal were presented as a means to take greater long-term control over our lives and increase our ability to impact our day-to-day existence, you'd have plenty of support throughout our community for that. quote: You think there would be more people who would argue for 'self determination or nothing'? quote: Respectfully, you imbue my words with the absolute weakest intentions that they could have. That's not where they're coming from; that's not what I am saying. Instead of just registering folks to vote, we also have to become much more thoughtful about how to vote as well. IMO, we are relatively young in our thinking about strategies as we've discussed here that could significantly increase our leverage. And again, creating a 'black state' is something that could be extremely meaningful to us in a lot of ways. quote: What is your alternative? By not voting aren't you just passively agreeing to get abused? How is that in our best interest? Despite the Republican chicanery, the last election still shows me that every vote counts. Perhaps I see the cup as half-full, but there are no circumstances where I believe it is in our best interests to relinquish whatever power and influence we have in this country. Voting is a means to make ourselves counted in meaningful ways. I don't see how we can be hurt by participating at the highest levels. Just because we may not be voting smartly at the moment does not in any way suggest to me that we should just throw in the towel. quote: Fine, well I've outlined a strategy that allows black folks to absolutely drive the political process in areas where our numbers are meaningful (NOT majority, just greater than the difference between Repubs and Dems). Let's do it! Also, let's get off our duffs and run for office ourselves! Let get more black folks into office and hold them accountable to our interests.  quote: How about using the power that we could have to force Caesar to sway us? quote: Perhaps those were the first steps in our political reawakening. We're smarter now and should hold others more accountable for our support and votes. We can be smarter about our political participation, no doubt. quote: Our ultimate success will be the product of a multi-pronged approach. We have to exert pressure from multiple angles. Like in football, to be most effective you've got to have a strong run and pass game. You've also got to play strong defense. You can't be predictable and narrow. This is great dialogue; a great conversation. Thanks all! |
|||
|
|
A1 |
Folks, if politics and voting is the solution, then I clearly do not understand the problem. Politics WAS a pivotal objective and strategy to get us from point “A†to point “G†in our quest to reach point “Z†(Zion?). The path we need to take, assuming no digression in political gains over the last 50 years, is one of economic uplift by virtue of producing the gamut of the goods and services consumed by black people the world over.
Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( Noah The African in America |
|||
|
|
Founder |
quote: I agree, brother. That's just another "prong" though! We're only at "C" vis-a-vis political power, IMO, though.BTW - here was a try awhile ago at a comprehensive solution for African America, of which economic empowerment is a major piece. link |
|||
|
|
A1 |
You are correct MBM, in the context of African Americans and that link you provided was on point in that context as well. For me, most of my thinking and theories about black people considers ALL the black people on the planet. Thus, when I said from point “A†to point “G†is was speaking in the context of the “World†and not just the “USAâ€. My Mississippi idea was born from the intransigence that African Americans have towards viewing African and Africans positively and as a natural affinity via roots.
Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( Noah The African in America |
|||
|
|
A1 |
quote:Please, MBM... Did I not say, Whatever Works?? I would never suggest Either - Or ... or ... All or nothing and, respectfully, I think it's crazy for you to suggest I did. My thing is making sure we agree on what the goal is and not being side-tracked by what may be short-term goals in a plan for perhaps greater long-term objectives. Basically, I'm saying, "I'm down for whatever..." but I do think I reserve the right to have reservations about any approach that stops short of what I see as the ulitimate objective. I am also of the opinion that we vaguely have the same goal in mind but when we get to talking about specifics then the very nature of what the "ultimate" goal is becomes transformed. Simply, I don't think we all really do have the same goal in mind. Nevertheless, I am not against whatever is "geniunely designed to get results". I could care less whether I'm right or wrong. We all get bogged down in "how we see it"... That's natural but I will not be bad mouthing or working against what you or NOAH has in mind. Either I will actively work with you or decide to act to make my vision a reality which I don't see as being mutually exclusive. I have only questioned or challenged your point in the same way you have mine. Of course, you did that by speaking to what you see as appropriate. I spoke to why I feel may be a side-effect of yours. You took it as a personal attack. I was only speaking deliberately about how I feel about that. quote:That's my last statement in my last post. Perhaps you missed it... I did not characterize your view as "immature" and as you see I acknowledged that we would have to work within the system and the system skills are a must. That goes without saying. Again, all I'm saying or cautioning against is not losing sight of what the "ultimate goal" is in the process.... even to the extent to make sure we are on the same page when we talk about objective(s). So to you and Noah I say, "Do your thang!"... Tell me what I can do to help you and I'll do it. I know you two are committed brothers. But still I reserve the right to have my own vision and prepare for that day when it becomes a reality. Further, I don't think UNITY necessitates that we all do the same thing. So, I seriously have nothing against you "working the system". Not at all. Nor am I against the "Mississippi Plan" (or whatever the target state is). I'm totally at peace with people approaching this from different angles. Because of that, I think its immature on your part to characterize my views as you did. |
|||
|
|
A1 |
quote:When did I say I didn't vote?? See that's the innane assumptions most all people make when, IMO, anyone makes an honest critique of a political system that can only do so much and has for the most part done so little. I do vote mind you... now on to making intelligent correlations please... If I say I don't think crosswalks are an effective way to get across the street, does that mean that I will never get to the other side? ... Ahh does Jay Walking or other alternatives not enter the picture. I simply said that I don't have faith that electorial politics in the system as constructed will not yeild what I see as the objectives... No. I do not by the "change the system from within the system" jargon. I have fundamental philosophical differences from that and I simply stated them. A debate about this is useless. I'm not gonna change your mind and neither will you mine. Also, simply stating that we need to focus on economics is naive as well. I think politics and economics are all inter-related, mutually inclusive. And my major concern with a migration thesis is to make sure that there is an economic groundwork in place before or at least enacted simultaneously with migration. Perhaps that's what is intended in Noah's "Mississippi Plan" but as of yet I haven't seen that explicitly stated or acknowledge. So the thing is to form some business alliances with the intent on settling in a prescribed area, investing and building infrastructure there that will provide employment opportunities earmarked for this project. I see and U.S. history testifies to it that gov't - aka political power - can be instrumental in creating the incentives for businesses to make those types of investments as well as sustaining the advantages for continued interest in such ventures. Basically, political power is there to preserve and install economic power... Again, I'm not in disagreement... Just trying to expand the dialogue and also be true to what it is I believe which should in no way be an afront to anyone else ideas, IMO. |
|||
|
|
C5 |
Any attempt to secede from the Union would be met with force. Missisippi would be a new Palestine as any black person who sides with the blacks would be forced to move to an occupied land where you would have no rights what so ever.
History also shows the Liberia was a failure. They did not blend with the indigenous people there, all of the wars that were fought are between the repatriated black Americans and the black Africans. Why? Two cultures clashing and the desire for power. So, if we want to be like the Isreali's, go into another country, become the majority and risk conflict with the local population or like South Carolina and secede fom the union, your going to need to be strong. Your going to have to fight someone. Is anyone against purchasing parts of uninhabited North West Canada? Even so, this would place one open to attack from another power hungry nation... What is wrong with having America by its balls like the jews do? |
|||
|
|
A1 |
Noah,
I have a question regarding your "Mississippi Plan"... Do you think that we would be setting ourselves up for another "Black WallStreet" kind of massacre? I don't mean to disparage but I think that we must be mindful of that. That's perhaps my reservation for an all out approach with a vast number of Blacks concentrated in any one or closely adjoined state(s). So I think that yes we can set up a southern strategy but be mindful not to limit our vision to just that. "Mississippi" could be the core or center but I would think we could build plenty of satellites in cities and areas were we have significant numbers. IMO, we are, again, talking about long term prospects. But I would not think that it is strategically adviseable to put ourselves in a position were we would be completely surrounded... without release valves or at least other Black controlled communities to trade with outside of that specific area. |
|||
|
|
A1 |
Khalilallah...
I agree with you on that... as you see I basically made the same argument. So, like it or not at least for the time being we should be focusing on garnering more power from where we are now. I don't absolutely rule out a "Mississippi Plan"... I just caution against going into it head first and concentrating great numbers of Black people there without some form of security. To be sure, there are no quick-fixes. Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want rain without thunder and lightning. -- Frederick Douglass |
|||
|
|
A1 |
MBM,
Could you reconcile or explain your position on "working the system" with, I assume, your interest in the creation of a Black Central Committee or Assembly??? I'm trying to understand how one works towards the other. Could you please explain and illustrate.... |
|||
|
|
Founder |
quote: Nmaginate, I wasn't attacking you. I have tremendous respect for you and your views. Even if I was 180 degrees opposed from you on something I wouldn't lash out at you in a way that disrespects you in any way. Perhaps my choice of words was unwise. I was not characterizing you as "immature" at all. I was merely suggesting that the idea (not yours, btw) that there is only one way for us to empower ourselves is, IMO, immature. Not that the person with the idea is immature, just that the idea itself is not yet fully developed, IMO. For example, it is immature, IMO, to the degree that it only considers using part of the tools at our disposal and not all. To be clear, though, I understand that that is not your approach, and I understood that from the beginning of our conversation. I do see how you could have read my words in the way that you did though. I'm sorry. I very much agree with the transitional approach that you articulate, and support it by suggesting that exclusively focusing on the fourth quarter belies the fact that we've got to be in a position to win when the fourth quarter gets here. Sorry to offend. Those weren't my intentions. More later . . . |
|||
|
|
Founder |
quote: First, I'm not entirely versed on all the intricacies of the Black Central Committee idea. That said, if we're talking about a body that "governs" African America, I see that having quite a bit of utility as a group that helps to focus and inform and lead and energize and aggregate and strategize for the uplift of our community. It's like having a "family meeting" to decide on something before leaving the house. (Sorry for the short answers, I'm under the gun at work here.) |
|||
|
|
Founder |
quote: |
|||
|