In Maryland I didnt experience any hostility from black Americans and I only heard of a few incidents of minor scraps but these were probably due to misunderstandings. I was told though that Nigerian men have a bad reputation with American ladies.

We all know the tension that exists between the two groups: African immigrants like other immigrants look down on American blacks, American blacks resent African immigrants due to their percieved success and their ancestor's role in slavery & etc. But we have to admit that apart from a few minor scuffles e.g Somalians fighting Americans in high school, violence has not reached the levels of feuds involving European immigrants and Americans decades ago. Any replies?

What's interesting, Maverick, is that your topic is nearly identical to mine. In my topic, I talk about a friend who thinks he is significantly "more complex" than I because he is a second generation "immigrant." And I am not yet certain as to why immigrant blacks feel so compelled to distinguish themselves from African Americans. I think its an "infalliable way of renewing their self-confidence" by riding off the insecurities of their own people. Perhaps they don't view us as "their people." But you know, Malcolm X, when he was alive, used to address this attitude in his teachings. In so many words, he said that we are made to believe that we have no relation to people of color around the world and that this kind of thinking blocks opportunities for indigenous people to unite and reclaim their souls and minds. Ultimately, its divisive. He says the enemy doesn't want us to reach the realization that we all in some way have been exploited and colonized by Europeans.

[This message was edited by Rowe on July 21, 2003 at 07:57 AM.]

I think that it is worth noting that West African, in particular, are very tribal and hold similar negative views of other Africans from historically rival tribes (historically meaning conflicts flamed via colonization and the slave trade). Thus, I think it is a bit much for African Americans to expect to be treated as an equal “Brother or Sister” by Africans, when it is common that Africans often don’t treat each other that way.

Furthermore, on the flip side, African Americans treat each other terribly, as a result of the psychological consequence of years of mistreatment based upon race, which has become internalized among many. Thus, when an African confronts such negativity from an African American, they should not make the mistake of assuming that they are being “singled out” because they are African. Granted, that might serve as a pretext, but you must understand that it is not the ROOT, most often, for certain people with skewed mindsets always find a PRETEXT to be seek the rewards of being an A-hole.

Personally, I think that the main reason we have animosities toward each other is primarily that both sides are working from the “White” perspective of the other, because information or beliers are born from the white media. Nothing good came come from looking at each other through the prism of “White eyes and interpretations”. When we meet each other, we therefore already have preconceived notions about who and what the other is all about, without giving reality a chance. Thus, self-fulfilling prophecies often manifest from making an assumption about a person, and then interacting with the person in a way that assumes the assumption is true, then feeling that the assumption was correct when the person reacts to the assumption rooted in the attitude or behavior.

Most of my friends here in the Twin Cities are Africans and we often Joke with each other about misconceptions. One of my Nigerian Friends carries around a 357 with him wherever he goes. He tells ME that it is for protection from MY (meaning me) brothers. One of my friends from Tanzania is always talking about the attributes of certain tribes. He introduces me to some of his countrymen and then later tells me what tribe they are from and what the tribe is known for. He told me once that someone was from a tribe that was known for being very intelligent. I am sure that if there is a tribe known for being intelligent, that there exists a tribe that are know as being dumb, for the universe always supplies and opposite. Consequently, tell him that such thinking is not different from what whites do in regards to race, because such labels or assumptions become engrained and damaging.

In conclusions, I think relations here in the Twin Cities, where 20% of the black population is native African, as being good, primarily because my main barometer is my own personal interactions with Africans…. which are positive.

Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


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Noah The African in America

"I think that it is worth noting that West African, in particular, are very tribal and hold similar negative views of other Africans from historically rival tribes (historically meaning conflicts flamed via colonization and the slave trade). Thus, I think it is a bit much for African Americans to expect to be treated as an equal “Brother or Sister” by Africans, when it is common that Africans often don’t treat each other that way."-Noah The African

Thanks Noah for adding an historical perspective to this discussion. I did not consider that African people are supposedly "tribal" could serve as an explantion for this behavior. However, we all should remember that people cannot chose their birth place or "tribe," as it were; therefore, when someone hates on another person for being where there are from, this immediatley puts the other person on the defensive. I think its all very childish myself.

"when someone hates on another person for being where there are from, this immediatley puts the other person on the defensive. I think its all very childish myself."

You certainly describing a whole lot of African American men with that conclusion. We kill each other every day often based on little more than what corner one is from, or what coast is the 'greater' killer maker. Truly 'childish' when one considers that corner, or those 'projects', is no more in reality 'theirs' than are the stars up in the sky.

That 'tribal' mindset is very real amongst CA, they often seem more concerned about who my descendents may have been rather than who I am as a person. That too is childish and small minded.

Hey Sarg....aint that what the military does? In reality, the behavior of blacks over territory and beefs is not unlike that of our own government, that just did a drive by on Iraq and is now taking over the territory from Saddam. eh Gunny?

Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


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Noah The African in America

Isn't it curious that there is no discussion of the ill-behavior or criminal behavior of European Americans. There is a characterization, or rationale for every act of African Americans. You don't hear it for Italians, or Serbs, or Poles, or Irish, or etc. AND WE BUY RIGHT IN TO IT. We join the pack to ridicule ourselves. WHAT IS THAT?

Italians kill Italians, and they make a TV series. It wins awards. Society doesn't call it "white-on-white" killing. There is no great social rationale for one European killing another. No one creates an entire genre. No one comes up with some recommendation for social remediation.

This maverick person drops these little shots on the board, and sits back a watches the frenzy while we extrapolate the original premise into a "class action."

We continue to do "Charlie's Job."

PEACE

Jim Chester

JWC

I have lived in several locations around the world, and I have to say, I've not had a bad experience with anyone from Africa. Except during the Aparteid Era when I was 14, I met a white man from South Africa who was very sexually lewd to me. I didn't appreciate that, but he of course was not a true African.
I guess in general, it would be fair to say that I've had good/great experiences with native born Africans.

Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society
Malcolm X, 1965

Thanx. Thats all I wanted to know. Oh Chester calm down. No need to get excited. Good point on the white on white killing thing, guess I never thought of it that way...oh well live and learn.

Thanks Chester, it seems that the world expects blacks to be the super race, acting several degrees higher than other races.

After all, we do have to perform ten times better than our counter-parts in order to be recognized. If we don't work at that level, there has to be something wrong with us.

Not to mention the human faults of greed and envy, oh, we are not supposed to have that, only whites and others are allowed to assasinate, lynch, discriminate and basically act evil.

Oh, the idea of us being lazy as we were in the past, you know, when we were working in the fields and the slave owner was sittin on the porch with his whip drinking lemonade. Or perhaps the buling of this nation's capitol building. Yeah, we should of worked faster, after all we are super-beings. I shall get off my rant.

In regards to Africans, it all depends on the region. Those from Mozambique have been the most friendliest, however those from Ghana, I have had some bad experiences with. I am willing to give each individual a chance as I hope anyone else would but that is my current tally. I was actually speechless when I was refered to, under his breath as a cotton-picker... It took a while for me to realize what was said due to the accent...

Of course we should be used to it by now, immigrants always view themselves as superior to blacks throughout history. Its always a pleasure to prove them wrong.

I live in the heart of what is probably the most ethnically diverse region of the country. I can honestly say that I have never sensed any beef, disdain, or condescension from any African immigrant, ever. If you exhibit the slightest hint of knowledge or interest in the country they're from, they act like you're the coolest person ever. I have my strong belief that most black Americans who perceive a problem with Africans are actually the ones with the problem. And I couldn't blame an African immigrant for having a problem with such a person.

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I have my strong belief that most black Americans who perceive a problem with Africans are actually the ones with the problem.

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What's up! T-VOX?

That's my sentiments exactly!

To me, even giving the benefit-of-a-doubt about the "negative experiences" African-Americans have had with native born Africans or other Diasporic Africans, I can't help but think that we are so quick to say "Not All White People Are Like That" when someone generalizes a particular "bad" experience but seem to abandon that idea of sound judgement when it comes to people who look just like us.

We find every excuse in the book to distance ourselves from people we share identity and heritage with - we have the nerve to say we are "AFRICAN" Americans but want little to do with things/people who are AFRICAN. Yet, we seem to grant every exception in the book to Whites and continue in a long-suffering pursuit to increase better race-relations with them but not with our own...
Stockholm Syndrome is about all I can say...

And your just like whites in which it is the black person's fault. Oh no, an African could never be that way. The black person must of done something. Well, live in your fantasy world. The truth is that some Africans have a superiority complex due to black stereotypes being distributed by Hollywood and sometime they decide to act on it.

As for identifying with their culture, which one? Cameroon have about 200 different cultures in that nation alone. So which one would you pick?

Your going after a cause that is only skin deep. French look like Germans but there was a long period of hatred. What of Rwanda? The attempt to identify with Africa is foolish if you think of Africa as one culture because it is not.

We have our own culture in which the entire world is embracing. Should you want to ignore the culture of your own people for a culture that may not even be yours then go right ahead. I will go as far to say that many Africans when they come over here they desire to act more like whites. The very thing you can not accept from a black person. Funny.

As for being gracious to whites? Nope... You can review my posts. I am an equal opportunity judge of character.

So with the state of affairs in regards to Africans in the Washington D.C. area, it all depends on which region they are from. Some view that they are superior to us, so live with it.

Khalillah...

I wish you would name the person you are talking to...

I'm just saying that Blacks in general seem to be way more forgiving and into "brotherly love" it seems with Whites than it is with Africans. I'm not discounting or saying Africans can't be snooty or whatever. But we all know that if someone was to characterize ALL people based on an experience with one or a few people of any ethnicity to the point of saying they won't deal with them any of them because of that we would call them racist or being extreme.

I think you yourself did so on the thread where something was referred to as [Black] separatism. You were quick to say that you would not abandon your White friends...

That's all I will say cause there is really no need to say more.

The truth is both Africans and African Americans have been stereotyped by Hollywood in negative ways. American blacks are seen as either funny or violent while African blacks are seen as supernatural village dwellers or civil war refugees. Name me one movie about Africa that didn't involve civil war or an african tribe that holds a magical artifact. Why either side has a superiority complex is beyond me.

While there are many African college graduates there are also many African American graduates. There are American blacks in the ghetto just as there are African immigrants in the ghetto. While it is true there are ignorant Africans who look down on American blacks there are African Americans who have superiority complexes too. If one heard some of the things these idiots say to Africans one would think the black man was a white in disguise. Do you guys chase lions and shit? So neither side should act like one is the innocent victim and the other is the bad guy. And what the hell is "acting white"? I hate it when people talk like that. Contrary to popular belief America is not the center of the Earth so who gave America the right to decide how whites, blacks, asians and etc should act. Not to offend anyone but when one talks like that it leads me to believe one has been brainwashed by Hollywood.

I respond without names because both of you seem to be on the same page. However I shall go ahead...:

Nmaginate you are right, I would not abandon a friend simply because of their color. Should they do something blantantly demeaning, yes. But in the name of ideology, no.

As far as being more forgiving, I am not. I do however judge person individually. There was a quesion in regards to African relations and I provided my response in general terms. Some of my responses goes against those of the Pan-Africa movement in which I am against and some actually promote a certain region.

Those from Ghana and Ethiopia, in which I have met, showed a condencending attitude while those from Mozambique welcomed me into their home as well as invited me to their country.

In regards to your statement:

"But we all know that if someone was to characterize ALL people based on an experience with one or a few people of any ethnicity to the point of saying they won't deal with them any of them because of that we would call them racist or being extreme."

I believe before your response I said the following, you probably ignored it due to the size of the post...

"In regards to Africans, it all depends on the region. Those from Mozambique have been the most friendliest, however those from Ghana, I have had some bad experiences with. I am willing to give each individual a chance as I hope anyone else would but that is my current tally."

Does that sound extreme? No.

Maverick, yes, I know that we both have been stereotyped however who has received the worst damage? We are at the bottom of the totem pole in regard. We are viewed as the evil of the world, even in this time of terrorism the common belief amongst other groups is the blacks are potential criminals. When they meet someone that is very educated and professional then they are the exception, even amongst our African friends.

"If one heard some of the things these idiots say to Africans one would think the black man was a white in disguise. Do you guys chase lions and shit?"

Well an unprovoked comment such as cotton-picker is just as bad. I was asked about the sate of relations and I provided. TempVox in returned replied:

"I have my strong belief that most black Americans who perceive a problem with Africans are actually the ones with the problem. And I couldn't blame an African immigrant for having a problem with such a person."

If that is not a potential white slip up, I don't know what is. The black person always has to be at fault is what I am getting from this.

It seems as if you would like to generalize yourself, lets translate what you said in terms that others might understand:

You said," So neither side should act like one is the innocent victim and the other is the bad guy."

Well, I quess that all of the police brutality is acceptable since there are blacks who actually rape, murder and kill. So the innocent receiver of the offense can not be the victim..."

If someone told you African friend about chasing lions, what did you do in response? You see it is all about backing up your words. I have always backed up mine. If someone said that to my friend Dino, then I assure you that may be one of the times that we would both act a fool.

In regards to America being the center of the Earth, where did you get that from? Acting white is an American term, being used in America, to illustrate the actions that whites are famous for amongst our black populace. It is a general term but all, due to this society, have the potential to act or react. You know, in a discriminatory or superior manner.

As for the movies without jungle themes:

Roots
Steven Biko biography
Nelson Mandela biography
Malcom X

The various documentaries regarding each nation as well as the encyclopedia entries in regards to each country. I am not one to be ignorant. I provided my current tally of reactions with Africans and you did not like it. Notice I said current, so, get over it.

If I were to meet Henry38 on the street I would say hello and initiate a dialogue, perhaps develop it into a friendship but I would not be ashamed of my current culture for another's and I do not expect him to do so as well. He can talk of his country as my friend Dino does and I can talk about where I grew up. However if I get a cotton-picker comment from someone or group, I would walk on and add it to my tally to report the next time a thread such as this comes up.

Now, is there really a need to say more?

Thank you Khaliallah...

(For addressing specific things to specific poster(s))... I apologize for overlooking your statement. I read it but your emphasis was on the "negative" and seemed generalized.

Too often we emphasize a particular aspect because that's what people take issue with and the full scope of what we say gets lost because we engage in a narrow argument and we tend to speak from extreme to extreme, never seeing the common or middle ground. So, I apologize while maintaining my position on the narrow points.

NO, I wasn't really saying you were being extreme due to your personal experiences yet I was cautioning that you be true to your "judge each individual" stance. That's all. I don't think you would say that ALL Africans from Ghana are arrogant any more than you would say ALL Whites from Colorado are arrogant snobs and expect us to assume that it is worthless to deal with Whites from Colorado.

It's funny though... you mention Pan-Africanism and Ghana... Color me dumb but I wasn't aware of a strict regional Pan-Africanism, seems to be a conflict of terms.

I havnt had any negative experiences with immigrant africans. In fact I am married to a tanzanian. Ive been associated with people from south africa, nigeria and off course tanzania. Off course when I speak of my husband I cant speak for all people of his region but he is a wonderful man. His priority are at home and everything else comes second. He puts effort into making me happy. The kind of effort you can see and feel. Love that is shown and not just talked about.

Rowe,

I would guess some africans wish to distinguish themselves from black americans because they are a people with their own culture and customs. My husband and many of his friends are not like that at all though. They view themselves as black. Again I cant speak for all but my husband views us as a striving people wheather your carribean, african, or american. He sees us as all black people.

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However if I get a cotton-picker comment from someone or group, I would walk on and add it to my tally to report the next time a thread such as this comes up.

Now, is there really a need to say more?

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Do you have a running tally for Whites in America?

C'mon... chill with the ill-will!

You wanna know what you just said translates into: "Let an African dare call me a name and I swear...!"

I really don't think you advise anyone carry that kind of CHIP on their shoulder especially when it comes to White people in America regardless of the region. The attitude of yours and most African-Americans in general is more "forgiving" and patient, more judging on an individual basis regardless of personal slight.

There are and have always been certain places where we have said "that town/city is racist" but that has never meant that any White person that you encounter from that town "you better watch out" or don't ever, ever deal with people in those places because of those experiences.

Khaliallah...
The truth is I'm sure there are some who will have personal experiences with Africans from the same regions/countries where you have had bad experiences and say they have had good. IMO, regardless of what personal experiences are, we should engage ALL African countries as we see fit regardless of time and method it takes to establish good relations with them on whatever level.

So no I don't buy into what you are talking about or what you are suggesting. It's friggin' astounding how I'm sure you would be in favor of taking measures to increase better race-relations with White Americans yet seem so against dealing with misunderstandings, miseducation, and arrogant attitudes of Africans in the same type of group-relations concept as race-relations.

Your position is ridiculous...
What are you actually trying to say??

Are you just informing us that some... some Africans are arrogant. Or are you saying that Pan-African type of concepts are useless since you personal philosophy is against it (at least in some regions... perhaps those where you've had bad experiences).

I would like for you to clarify that...

Black people in general are at the bottom of the pole anywhere in the world. Africa is seen as a mess because many feel blacks cant take care of themselves. Do you think an ignorant racist can tell the difference between a black African and a black American from a distance? No.

I just dont like the way some people say Africans are the bad guys and we Americans haven't done shit to them. Like I said earlier in this board I personally haven't had bad experiences with African Americans but I know people who have and been on message boards where Africans have discussed such issues. What there can only be ignorant Africans but God forbid an African American be actually hateful and ignorant to Africans.