Yes I agree whatsgoingon. I think humans have a propensity to lift themselves up by putting others down, given the relativity and interdependence of human life and existence. Thus, for people or groups looking to feel better about them selves psychologically, they look for others who are doing worse, to juxtapose themselves against, to produce the desired effect of instant "Stature". They don't look at the juxtaposition of them selves relative to groups that are doing better than they are, because in such juxtaposition, their stature is lowered and no one wants a lower status. As the great Carthaginian General Hannibal once astutely noted, "It is not that I must succeed....its that OTHERS MUST FAIL". Thus, he realized the relative nature of "victory" in competition between humans as requiring the failure of others, in order to produce the success of others whom they are in competition with. Consequently, a quick way for immigrants to gain a sense of in a land where they have little, is to find a group that the can look down upon as failures, thus producing the desired effect of instant social elevation above that group, notwithstanding their being looked down upon by other groups.

As humans, we SHOULD realize that environment and not nationality or genetics, is what shapes the different realities among groups. Switch the environments of Africans and African Americans from birth and you will have the exact same situation in reverse as each group fall victim to the conditioning of its environment and history. The tendency of to not want to trace the "why" of certain realties is simply an attempt at preserving their "Status", for if they understood why, it would logically negate their false sense of "superiority".

Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
`6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`)
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-'
_..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
(((' (((-((('' ((((
Noah The African in America

Well said

henry38:

You still insist this is about me telling others. And when you know I am not. Is there an agenda there?

I am not telling anyone who they are. I explained to you what you already know. I describe how the world-system of identity works. Look at your passport!!! You still don't get it. All of that is not simply about "black" folk!!

Why do you abandon the world's system of identity when you get to us. Is it that you think we don't fit, or is that we can't fit? Why are we not a valid part of the African Diaspora if we have ancestral nationality. We can only be a valid part if we retain the shackles of chattel slavery? We can be a part, but only if claim only "blackness?"

Sorry, that's "Charlie's" game. Although you are good at it. I refuse to play.

You are also good at twisting the issue. Example:"It is not an issue about colour either, when white people do divide and rule it is not on people with different skin colour all they focus on is do exactly what you are doing and talk about their different backgrounds.

Huh?

I think you might want to re-work that. It seems like you became entangled in your own rhetoric.

And you are also good at avoiding a direct question on an issue you laid out. Remember "... we all know who we are..."? I'm still waiting. Who are you? And please don't tell again WHAT you are. I know you are "black." I don't know that you are a part of the African Diaspora. It certainly isn't a necessity. But, WHO are you, henry38?

Speak!!!!

PEACE

Jim Chester

You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.

As much as African immigrants should try and understand where the black American is coming from the black American shuold also try and look at it from the African's view. Wu Tang rapper RZA recently commented while visiting Africa that he understood why African immigrants seemed content with their inner city houses. RZA saw how many African communities were actually worse than American ghettos. The African immigrant comes to America, sees this land with all its "freedoms" and wealth and wonders why black Americans complain. The African immigrant also has pressure from families back home to provide for them something they feel the black American doesn't understand.

Unfortunately there isn't a racism 101 class that immigrants can take before coming to the States. And I am in no way saying Black Americans should go all the way to Africa and support them while abandoning the problems they face in the U.S. Maybe both communities should get their own houses in order, after all black Africans and black Americans have their divisions too. When that happens and when we are all in a position where one cant exploit the other maybe then we'll talk.

Oh and Whatzgoingon isnt it just possible that some African immigrants encountered a black American that was lazy and criminal and this is where the stereotypes could also have come from?It all cant be music and tv. Its sad and unfortunate though that they judge an entire people by the actions of a few.

And you are right Africans should be more vocal about the plight of black Americans.

Well Maverick,

To respond to your comment about what Africans perceive here as better amounts to the relativity of their conditions. What may appear good to them can still be perceived as lacking by those here. I always used to say, "To a classroom full of "F" students, the one "D" student is the smartest in the class.....but is a "D" student really smart? Hell no......Hell, look at political conservatives, black and white....they have their own view that blacks have attained equality even though there are still obvious social disparities that exist.........

Maverick,

I am not saying that some it is not from what some observe of African Americans. But I do think it has something to do with the stereotype, because most, when they first meet me and want to relate to me, won't talk about black intellectual topics or black history or news events that affect the Diaspora. They want to talk about their favorite hip-hop artist, sports or "hood" movies. I travel, and though I have never been to Africa, I have been throughout the Caribbean, and wherever I go, those are the first things that come up. They don't know anything but a vague notion of the history of black American, have met few black Americans personally, but they can tell me the up to the minute detains of what's going on with the R Kelly scandal and the words to the newest 50 cent song (which really happened to me in Cuba). Now, where else would they be getting their impression if black America?

Now I don't come off as stupid, lazy or criminal to anyone who talks to me a few minutes (at least I don't think so), and I know plenty of black Americans who would not fit into this category. Yet it seems easier for immigrants to subscribe to the notion of other groups that blacks like me are anomalies, yet expect whites and other groups to label the criminal, stupid, lazy elements of their society as the exception to the rule. You don't know now many times I have heard "You don't act like other black Americans, or you don't look like most black Americans (meaning I'm not ugly), and looked at them like they had two heads because the person I was talking to was a BLACK African, or a BLACK Saudi or a BLACK Dominican.

And yeah, I have been to Haiti, and it doesn't get much worse than that, so I know something of the conditions that black people around the world have to deal with. Is that supposed to make me condone black immigrants dislike of Black Americans? Remember, there are a couple of legitimate reasons why most of black America is mired in poverty. So when I go to Haiti and Africa and see that blacks run everything, and they don't have to deal with being minorities in a hostile country and have 400+ years of slavery, discrimination and legalized racism behind them, and they are living in worse conditions than I live in, am I supposed to adopt a theory of superiority over them? Do I just forget the years of colonization and exploitation that caused their countries to be in such poor conditions and say these people are simply criminal, lazy and ignorant (and yes, walking around these places, you could find plenty that would fit this description), and should be happy they don't live in Afghanistan?

Which leads to my gripe. Most of these non-AA blacks come from societies where their have been the victims of oppression, so why when they come here, they forget about it and adopt the same opinions their oppressors had against them against us? [Hint: Read Noah the African's theory on human psychology. If needed, I can provide references for psychology, and sociology theories on this behavior]. I could sort of understand the reasoning if Africans were coming over here and becoming millionaires while black America stayed poverty stricken, but these Africans and black Latinos are basically in the same position black America is in. Because living in the ghetto is a step up for them and they show their appreciation by being quiet and cooning (sometimes) for non-AA America and establish that "I'm not like them, sir," and I'm supposed to condone that?

I guess the reason I have so much to say about this is I have to deal with this on a more regular basis than most of the posters on this board, so if my commentary seems to turn into ranting, I apologize.

I would also suggest that those who don't believe that lots of Africans think this way, do what i did. TALK to them. They will tell you (in a nice way, of course) what they think.

NO you are not ranting and you should never condone ignorant behaviour from anyone regardless of background. I never wanted to imply what they do is right hence the racism 101 jibe I just wanted you to know what their unfortunate mindset was.

Hi whatzgoingon! I see you made it over here from mundoafrolatino.com I'm glad that you're joining this discussion. I'd like to see more people from various parts of the Diaspora here.
What do you all think of African Diaspora relations in the U.S.? When I say Diaspora, I mean black people of all nationalities. I would like to get some feedback on this. I've heard some negative things in regards to African-Americans, that have frankly made me get a little upset from our brothers and sisters in the Diaspora.
Holla back!

Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society
Malcolm X, 1965

I am back, what did I miss? Lets start with Vox. You see, he refers to me as an idiot... Lets begin...

(Their modern cities?!? What the hell are you talking about?)

Someone said that I have the belief that Africa is nothing but jungle. Got it? Good.

(First of all, I don't believe you have ever been called a "cotton-picker" by anyone at all, unless you provoked them.)

AND THIS IS THE SOURCE OF MY IRRITATION AT THIS POST!!!!

Africans are not perfect individuals. I can not phantom to understand who might of provoked them or possibly that individual could be an ass. Never thought about that one huh? It seems to me that you have more trust for the African. Well, what does this mean?

It seems that the Stockholm Syndrome has taken place here. Think about it. You automatically place blacks here in AMerica over the blacks of Africa. Why?

(The way you distort on this thread, there's no chance I'm believing that you were just walking down the street minding your own business when somebody from Africa called you that.)

Uh, no. Walking on campus. I do not know this person, nor am I going to pretend to know what may of caused it. Bottom line. You think Africans are greater than African-Americans. You do not know me and yet you are calling me a liar. You do not know the African I passed and yet you are taking there side. Sad indeed.


(quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vox :"I have my strong belief that most black Americans who perceive a problem with Africans are actually the ones with the problem."

Gotcha. That was my concern with your comment in the first place. It had to be the black person's fault.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I get it. You're an idiot.)

And it gets personal. Lol. I provide my experiences and you don't like it. Wow. Sad indeed.

(In a statement that reads, "If A, then B," you detach B from the context and attack it with some make-believe assumption about where it came from, despite the fact that the FACT of where it came from, "If A," is right there immediately preceding it.)

That was stupid. You make a presumption of guilty to the black American in your equation. That is what your doing hands down. Lets take a look at this shall we.

Vox :
A= "I have my strong belief that most black Americans who perceive a problem with Africans

B= are actually the ones with the problem."


So if we were to remove B, then we would say that Black Americans do not have a problem? Who is the one with the actual problem? This is after all your STRONG belief, so please, clarify...

You can't. Your the "idiot."

( This is the type of stupid stuff that makes your argument worthless.)

Yeah, right.

(It's not just the stupid premise you make, it's the pathetic way you go about it.)

Sure, if that makes you feel better then sure. I think you should probably take back that statement.


(quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yet, you are aware that I had no contact with these individuals but you are willing to defend them and their actions.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yeah, you were minding your own business, and they called you a name. I buy that. Honest.)

And you, who have never met me before. Can only see my name have the ability to pass judgement? Wow. I am impressed. Tell me why you can not phantom an African acting in such a manner? Please reveal to me? Reveal to me how you can pass judgement on a less than a 3 sec. encounter of two people you have never met? You can't. You have the same beliefs that traditional whites have had through out history, American blacks are lesser than immigrants.

oh, more quotes:

(quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vox :"I gave you the specific observations I've made that led me to the conclusion: I enjoy every chance I get to vibe with people from Africa. A lot of black Americans I know do not."

And we have to approach them with knowledge of their country before they call us cotton-pickers!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No, all you have to do is REFRAIN FROM SHOWING THEM DISRESPECT.)

WHAT DISRESPECT IS THERE WHEN YOU ARE MINDING YOUR OWN BUSINESS? ARE YOU REMEDIAL? My goodness, this is so pathetic. Why am I even taking you seriously?

You know what, you are not worth my time. You are discriminatory towards your own people and I can not stand you for it. It is your strong belief that Africans have to be provoked. Much like the black American had to be resisting arrest. You are truly pathetic.

You should note that I never condemned all Africans. I did not even condemn the African that tried to provoke me. I simply shared an experience, an experience that you can not handle. Get over it.


(If you REFRAIN FROM SHOWING THEM DISRESPECT, most people, particularly black people, will have no reason to disrespect you.)

Thats funny. You going to sit there and tell me that black people do not disrespect people for no reason. Where are you from? Who the hell are you? Please!!! If I had hair I would pull it out.

(If someone did disrespect you for no reason (which is doubtful, given how much reason you've given on this thread for people to disrespect you),)

Oh, so only whites are capable of that right? You have already lost all credibility with me. I am now only humoring you. You have no knowledge of basic human behavior, do you?


(then they're the problem. But on balance, if you refrain from disrespecting someone, you wouldn't be getting these kinds of reactions.)


Oh, put I did silly one. Your hypothesis has failed. I hope you did not refer to that as theory...

more quotes:

(quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Vox has) a silly pre-conception that is illustrated in your response that we are the fault for their ignorance. That we have to bow before them in hopes that they do not treat us poorly. Please!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Who said anything about bowing? Treating people with dignity is bowing before them?? No wonder they can't stand you! )

Actually, they can. If you read my posts I have African friends. Not from the area of that one individual but I do. Such a shame, should I go back and post when I said this? Nope, it is in my very first statement...

And more quotes:
(quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The facts that you fail to understand in regards to the true nature of Africans, they are not all the same.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is "the true nature of Africans?" I'm really curious. Tell me about this one nature that all Africans have. If they "are not all the same," then why do you use the term, "the true nature of Africans?" There is no such thing.)

The true nature of Africans:

Some of them are nice, some are mean. Some are happy some are sad. Some are evil, some are good. Some discriminate against American blacks, some do not. SOME ARE BLACK AND SOME ARE WHITE. Some believe in Allah, some believe in Jesus, some believe in animal spirits, some don't. Some speak Arabic, Swahili, English, and Portugesse, some do not. SOME WILL PROVOKE BASED ON THEIR PRECONCEIVED THOUGHTS OF OTHER INDIVIDUALS AND SOME WILL NOT. Should I continue?


(quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The fact that they can be just as afraid of us as whites due to misconceptions.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, and most African-Americans are scared of others for the same reasons. I don't get your issue. )

You get my point. They have the same faults. My issue is with you pacing them on a pedistal and choosing to judge a man you do not know for no other reasons than either your very own preconcieved notions, your hatred for your own people or perhaps you are remedial.

(quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The fact that just like any other immigrant that they view themselves as superior
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh. So much for "they are not all the same." This must be the "true nature of Africans." LOL.)

Nope, just a generalization that you yourself use for your silly cause and effect equation.


(quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and the fact that the person you are arguing with stated that they are friends with an African.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So you're not anti-African, because you have an African friend. I'm surprised that there's anyone who doesn't know how terrible that sounds in 2003. )

Nope, what would make me anti-African? Not accepting your silly cause and effect equation? You have no idea how stupid your sounding. You see, that fact just destroys your entire silly bashing of me and my character.

(quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vox :"Against me, you're better off just taking what I wrote and disagreeing with it, rather than pretending you didn't read what I wrote and making up stuff about my inner thoughts."

How am I doing so far?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------)

You suck. I will give you some time though.



(I'll let you know when you actually try it.)

Been doing it from the start... Your nothing...


(quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know your inner thoughts as well. At this moment you are scared and angry, wondering what to write next. Soon you'll get a little bit braver and you will start to write, but wait. You do not know how to respond, so at first, you'll respond to others and then you will reach the fateful decision to respond to mine.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



What in the world?? YOU just called ME arrogant? You must be Soul Doctor. )

Nope, I am who I am, that is my true name. I don't hide.


(quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vox :"Oh, and here's a fact for you: You said: And your just like whites in which it is the black person's fault. Oh no, an African could never be that way. The black person must of done something. Well, live in your fantasy world."

I was speaking in general, that if you were black you would understand. By the way, that is not a fact, that is an opinion. Fact: the world is round, opinion: the world stinks..."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------)

WOW, IN GENERAL!!!!!! So only you have the right to speak in general? You maligned black americans as provocative in their dealing with Africans and all I did was speak in general about a particular region in Africa that I have negative dealings with? Sad.

(No, man, the FACT was that you SAID it. And actually, the fact I was talking about was that Africans are pretty much black. And so am I, so where that comes from shows your further ignorance.)

I am so arrogant that I referred them by what they would like to be referred as? Sorry silly, not going to work.


(quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vox :"Well, in YOUR fantasy world, African immigrants are somehow not BLACK."

Nope, they are either from Ghana or Mozambigue, or a host of several other nations. Does any black person know where they are from? If they did they would not refer to themselves as African-American. No, they would choose something like Somali-American. Get my point...?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They're Somali-American because African-Americans are you and me. It's incorrect to call 1st generation immigrants African-American, because this term is used to describe OUR ethnicity. However, again, African-Americans and Somalis are both black. We belong to the same race. That's a pretty basic point that your language shows you failed to understand. But it's basic enough that you must understand it now that I've told it to you. For you to continue denying it is pretty ridiculous.)

Nope, it is about what they would like to be referred as. Since they are from Africa, with distinct culture of their own, should I not know what country they are from, then I will continue to refer to them as such, African. No race applied. Now since we usually refer to ourselves as black, with the exception of those that prefer African-American, I will use that, black. So, it is you that would like to bring race into this.

That was a pretty good stretch. Try again.

(I can see, from this post of yours and from your discussion with Nmaginate and Maverick, that you basically are a hater of those blacks who are African born.)

Nope, just anyone who discriminates. For some reason your not that intelligent to get that. I actually said that in many of my posts...

(That's your right.)

Your an idiot to believe it.

(You'll feel what you want to feel, and clearly, there's nothing any rational discussion can do to change that.)

That your the true idiot, yep, nothing thus far to change that....

(Shame.)

That you are a true idiot, well, yeah, shame...

It is funny that whatsgoingon is saying the same thing that I have said yet he is not getting the same amount of flack that I am getting.
I must admit that I am jealous but grateful for his presence here.
To make this clear BECAUSE THERE ARE HATERS here who would concentrate on the jealous part, I AM GRATEFUL FOR HIS PRESENCE HERE, the jealousy is a compliment.

Yssys,

What's up? I too would like more people of the Diaspora to venture out and learn about one another. Therefore, I would advise everyone to visit mundoafrolatino.com
http://www.mundoafrolatino.com/english/index3.htm or any other sites about Afro-Latinos. You can learn a lot on how black America is perceived in the black Latino community, read thoughts on the relationship (or lack of) between Afro Latinos and African Americans, and interesting history on our brothers from Latin America.

I'll let the board have a crack at the question posed before I add my 2 cents.

Vox, would you care to continue this in another thread? Perhaps experiment with MBM's plan? Not that I feel that you are my equal in regards to debating...

Before we begin you would have to realize that:

1: I never mentioned or have any hatred for Africans

2: My confrontation with you is about your cause and effect belief and your judgement of my character based on nothing more than someone messing up your views of Africans. They are not all perfect.

Should you agree that they are not all perfect, then my arguement is done.

Should you still believe that my experience was non-existent then we are finished, for that is your choice and I can not provide evidence of a less than 3-seconds encounter. Nor do I feel the need to.

Should you still believe in your cause and effect issue, then that is what we can discuss.

If there is issue with my thoughts of Pan-Africanism, then please refer to whatsgoingon has said and then decide if you still want to continue.

Are you game? Are there any other points in which we need to discuss?

Please note, that you were the first to make this personal in regards to name calling. I was first to make it personal in regards to the issue. Big difference. Let me know.

quote:

---

Vox, would you care to continue this in another thread? Perhaps experiment with MBM's plan? Not that I feel that you are my equal in regards to debating...

---

My don't we have an EGO!!!

Sad...

Well, the only way to prove it would be to have one of MBM's "AA.org Great Debates"...

BTW, Khalilallah, I can certainly agree with you perhaps on as many things that I may disagree with you on but I don't regard you as someone with great debating skills... You seem to concerned about a person's particular angle - "Do you have something against my religion?" - to consistently demonstrate that you have the appropriate debating skills. But at least you have confidence! lol

ricardomath: "I'll have to admit that the "Black person's fault" comment had me a bit puzzled, too."

This is in reference to the comments by Vox:

"I have my strong belief that most black Americans who perceive a problem with Africans are actually the ones with the problem. And I couldn't blame an African immigrant for having a problem with such a person."

I was equating his strong belief with those of traditional whites. The ones that believe that police brutality does not take place and that the black person had to be resisting arrest...

Sorry for responding so late to this.

I just happened upon this site and read through the various posts regarding this subject and felt I had to comment:
The one thing that seems to be missing from all of this debate is the fact that neither the average African-American, nor the average African truly knows their own history beyond what the white man has written in books and told them it was. (Forgive me if appears that I am jumping all over the place)
The statements regarding how African-Americans do not like Africans because of a perceived superiority of Africans and because of Africans' part in the slave trade...do not flatter yourself and do not over-estimate the average African-American's knowledge of history.
Most African-Americans do not know enough about their own history to even know that African participated in the slave trade. Most African-Americans that actually do dislike Africans do so because they are still under the influence of centuries of being brainwashed into beliveing that anything African or of African decent(i.e., subconciously themselves also) is automatically inferior and to be dispised...having this attitude without the knowledge of Africans' participation in the slave trade. On the other hand, it appears that colonization had the same brainwashing effect on African regarding African-Americans (along with a lot of racist propaganda). I personally do not feel inferior or superior to anyone--I think feeling like that are the crutches that some people need to either prop up their low self-esteem or use as an excuse for not being the best human being that they can be. I live in th South, I a woman that has been in a long term relationship with a West African...there was metion of Nigerian men having a bad reputation with African-American women, trust me, African-American men also have a bad reputation with African-American women...however, the culture clash is the primary problem with the African men...they have very chauvanist belief system that most free, liberated American women cannot deal with and know they don't have to. Now, getting back to African-American / African attitudes toward one another: Not all, but a lot of Africans do come to this country with feelings of superiority towards African-Americans...they never give any thought the fact that African-American have been in the trenches in this country for centuries, fighting the human battle for justice and equality for all people; it was African-Americans that continually fought against slavery, that marched and were lynched, maimed and mutulated all the way up through the civil rights movement...the suffering was not for us alone. Because of African Americans fight for civil rights (where no African was beaten, hosed, biten by dogs, imprisoned, hung from trees) is the only reason that Africans are even in this country, the only reasons the majority of immigrants that are not of Europeon decent are in this country. What the African, Asian, Latino, etc.,...any race of color fails to comprehend is that the civil rights movement did not only allow intergrated schools and work places in this country, it also demanded anti-discrimination in all areas, such as immigration. If it had not been for African-Americans struggle through the civil rights movement, this country would still be as white as it was when I was a small child. Actually, when I was a child the only foreigners in my city/county could be counted on one hand. I can never get over how foreigners come to this country purposely wanting to feel superior to and look down on the the very people who are the only reason they are here. I also can never get over how content the majority of African Americans are with being absolutely ignorant to their own true history and in turn, purposely want to feel superior to Africans...both sides are wallering in a dangerous mixture of ignorance and self-hatred.
There was a mention in one of the thread of being called a "cotton picker" by a African...prime example of the true ignorance the keeps people of African decent all over the world on the lowest rungs of society (a house divided will not stand). As long as there is a wedge between Africans and African-Americans, the white man can continue to use the riches and natual resouces of Africa for his own advantage; like a pimp uses his whores (and the whores adore the pimp, will do and think what ever ways he wants them to).
I don't say this with sarcasm, but it seems to me that the African just orbitrarily kisses the white man's ass as if he does not know how much of African was colonized, divided up among Europeon nations and depleted of its natural resources...and once there is nothing of value left, then the white man is gone, leaving Africans in the mist of civil wars, hunger, starvation, and without any or any right to natural resources that would lift the African economically (South Africa is a prime example of that...endless supplies of diamonds, yet the native African does not own or have control over the naturally occurring diamond minds in their own country...the white man has gotten rich, based national economies on its wealth, while the native African lives in squalor.
I have to sign off for now, it there is a reply, I will respond to it. I wish everyone peace and understanding.