It seems to me that, with all due respect, those who seek to parse words and entertain exercises in semantics on this issue, all do so out of some discomfort with any connection between the word "Africa" and their personal sense of identity. I don't say that necessarily in a perjorative sense, it just seems to be the case.

From the way I see things, who cares that we can't pinpoint a particular country or "national" heritage. Frankly, that's a Western concept anyway. Most of the African countries were legally established AFTER slavery anyway. So - the fact that I can't proclaim dual citizenship anywhere or even don't know which part of the continent my people come from does in NO way diminish my connection to the continent and to the people.

quote:

Originally posted by Jasmine:

I just wonder why only Black Americans are only considered be called African American? Why not also White South Americans, Morrocans, Algerians, etc.,

Folks, "African American" is as much a noun, as an adjective. The two words together have taken on a meaning in the same way that "white" has taken on one. There are no "white" people; perhaps some pink ones - but I hope you get the point.

Theresa Kerry is not an "African American" despite the fact that she is an American who was born in Africa. She is a Euro - whatever, who lived in Africa and now lives in America.

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:
It seems to me that, with all due respect, those who seek to parse words and entertain exercises in semantics on this issue, all do so out of some discomfort with any connection between the word "Africa" and their personal sense of identity.

I agree. That's exactly where I was comming from for most of my life, and I'm still wrestling with the idea that "Africa" is a part of my identity at all. I always refered to myself as a Black American, just like Jasmine does and for the same reasons. But I believe the semantics are important. Identity is a complicated matter, after all.

quote:

From the way I see things, who cares that we can't pinpoint a particular country or "national" heritage. Frankly, that's a Western concept anyway. Most of the African countries were legally established AFTER slavery anyway. So - the fact that I can't proclaim dual citizenship anywhere or even don't know which part of the continent my people come from does in NO way diminish my connection to the continent and to the people.

I wouldn't say that it diminishes my connection to the continent and to the people either. But, I would say that my unique history enhances my connection to this continent and to its people in a way that immigrants don't seem to share.

quote:

Originally posted by Black Viking:

But, I would say that my unique history enhances my connection to this continent and to its people in a way that immigrants don't seem to share.

I agree, and I think that all of our history is embodied in the phrase "African American".

quote:

Originally posted by James Wesley Chester:

Clearly, your wife is 'black', and I mention her because of earlier reference. But more specifically and relative to the topic, she is Columbian.

Probably of unknown African ancestry.

She would be considered "afrocolombiana", but I've only seen the term in writing, and have never heard it in conversation when we are in Colombia. In everyday conversation in her own country, she would use the term "negra" or "negrita".

If you can acknowledge that one is "black" (meaning of African descent as opposed to any of the other dark skinned people on Earth), then why is it necessary to discuss in one's primary identification whether they are of known, unknown or any other African descent? Africa is the only place on Earth that produces "black" people - hence if one is "black" - there shouldn't be a lot of question or confusion about where that person is from.---MBM

It does seem to be the obvious conclusion doesn't it?

Yet we know it is not true.

As Black Viking so clearly noted,it is not more true than it being obvious that 'black' people oare from any other place.

The American protocol is that 'black' people are automatically fromo Africa.

We embraced it. We swallowed the 'hook' that 'black' to synonymour with, is unique to Africa.

Wrong.

There was no confusion because we, as a people, DID NOT QUESTION AN ALTERNATIVE.

It therefore became the 'conventional wisdom' of our society.

I know we've argued about this for years, but please answer this question. If I attended third grade with AudioGuy (which I did) but don't remember the name of the school - does that mean that I am somehow less an alum of that school?---MBM

No, clearly it does not.

Does the fact that I may not be in touch with the facts of my identity at all alter the truth of that identity?---MBM

Absolutely not.

Furthermore, does it at all weaken the fact that I did, in fact, share a classroom with AudioGuy?---MBM

Again, no.

But it still leaves you ignorant on the matter.

Your alternative now is to fill the void yourself using your parameters in a manner that is likely to fit with AudioGuy's version of the same set of facts.

That is it precisely.

The fact that we don't know is compounded by the fact that we feel we have to seek approval for out conclusions, AND further compounded that we MUST begin by using information provided by those who extracted that knowledge from us to begin with.

That's not a good place to be.

But only you/we can fix it.

PEACE

Jim Chester

The fact that we sit here - the lost tribe - and try to analyze who we are thru someone elses "interpretation" of who we are shows why this is so convoluted.

I tend to use African American...but mainly because I feel black is to narrow AND it's color not a group people just like white people are pink...white is a color not a race of people.

It's a convoluted idea designed by a group of people who deem themselves superior and others as three fiths human in order to maintain the since of superiority.

I'm not felling the push for multicultured either.

If we all belive that original man was black, came from Africa, and migrated to the rest of the world and in doing so evolved into the other racial groups, then all people are African. And few of us are "pure" Africans.

Maybe it really boils down to the individual deciding who and what they are rather then letting one group or the other define them.

quote:

Originally posted by James Wesley Chester:


The American protocol is that 'black' people are automatically fromo Africa.

We embraced it. We swallowed the 'hook' that 'black' to synonymour with, is unique to Africa.

Wrong.

OK. For $64,000 - where are black people in America from if not from Africa?

quote:

There was no confusion because we, as a people, DID NOT QUESTION AN ALTERNATIVE.

It therefore became the 'conventional wisdom' of our society.[/i]

In America, where else are black people from? What other black people are in America in any meaningful numbers? Why the games James?

quote:

But it still leaves you ignorant on the matter.

My ignorance, however, has NO impact on the truth of my identity.

quote:

The fact that we don't know is compounded by the fact that we feel we have to seek approval for out conclusions, AND further compounded that we MUST begin by using information provided by those who extracted that knowledge from us to begin with.

Uh, who did we seek approval from when we began calling ourselves African American?

I prefer the term Black American, simply because I feel that "African-American" is way too broad. Africa isn't a country, it's a huge continent. So to say African-American seems to be politically incorrect.---Jasmine

You're right. It is politically incorrect. It is also sociologically wrong for the very reason you cite.

African is nOt a nation. It is a continent. Therefore it cannot confer nationality, ancestral or otherwise, and known or unknown.

African/Africa also DOES NOT equal Black since there are many Arabs/West Asians, Whites and Indians living there. From what I've read, South Africa has the largest population of Indians outside of India. So saying that someone is African does not automatically mean that they are Black.---Jasmine

You're right again of course for all the reasons you cite.

I just wonder why only Black Americans are only considered be called African American? Why not also White South Americans, Morrocans, Algerians, etc., When filling out a form, during the race/ethnicity part, I always see Black/African-American together and I don't understand why. I feel that those terms have two totally different meanings and I don't think they should be grouped together at all.

You're right again.

Those are the practices of our society. They don't have to make sense as long as the practice maintains the construction of the society.

I honestly think that the term African American is just a way to make us (Black Americans) seem less American than White Americans. It's not fair that Black Americans have to be African Americans, Native Americans have to be "native" while White Americans just get to be all American. It's not right at all.---Jasmine

Thank you. But...

It is we who have declared ourselves African American. If you let yourself listen to European-Americans, they will try to persuade you that you don't need to do that. You're American, and 'black'. That is enough.

Besides...I know what you mean.

Our declaring ourselves African Americans as in Americans who are African American shut down the construction in which America tries to keep us confined.

It certainly doesn't make us less. It also doesn't make us more.

It makes us ourselves in a manner that every other group of people in the world identifies themselves.

I think of African-American as describing someone who migrated from Africa and gained American citizenship...which makes them an African-American. I was born here so I would never consider myself to be African American. Like I said before, I think its politically incorrect. Do Brazilians, Peruvians, Colombians, etc., consider themselves to be South American-American? Nope! Because South America is a continent, not a country...just like Africa. The groups I listed above call themselves Brazilian American, Peruvian American, Colombian American and so on. I, as a Black American do not know which country my ancestors came from...so I could really never consider myself to be African American although I know I have African ancestry. I don't knock people who consider themselves to be African-American but I feel it's very improper.---Jasmine

Jasmine!! Jasmine!! I'm supposed to be saying that.

Thank you!!!!!

That is precisely the point. And...that's why I 'harp' about that damn hyphen.

It denotes immigration; in most instances. That is definitely the case in the instance of the use of Africa.

Most descendants of America's slavery do not know their African origin. It is unknown.

We are a distinct group of Americans with the common heritage of a forced and separate place in the society in which we live.

We know it is a place that is different from the America occupied by Europeans.

It is occupied by we who are of unknown African ancestry.

I concluded it should be called African America; the place we are from. The place we developed to enable us to survive in a hostile land.

My Mom on the other hand, disagrees with me & considers herself to be African-American.---Jasmine

I find it striking that a mother and a daughter can come to such divergent conclusion using the same set of facts.

And even more bewildering considering one (presumably) issued from the loins of the other.

I am just an American who happens to be Black (and proud)

Pride is good.

PEACE

Jim Chester

quote:

Originally posted by James Wesley Chester:
That is precisely the point. And...that's why I 'harp' about that damn hyphen.

It denotes immigration; in most instances. That is definitely the case in the instance of the use of Africa.

Most descendants of America's slavery do not know their African origin. It is unknown.

We are a distinct group of Americans with the common heritage of a forced and separate place in the society in which we live.

We know it is a place that is different from the America occupied by Europeans.

It is occupied by we who are of unknown African ancestry.

I concluded it should be called African America; the place we are from. The place we developed to enable us to survive in a hostile land.

I agree with all of this. But I have one question. If the place that we are from is African America, wouldn't that just make us African Americans and not African American-Americans? Isn't the extractation of the hyphen enough to make the term accurate?

quote:

Originally posted by James Wesley Chester:

African is nOt a nation. It is a continent. Therefore it cannot confer nationality, ancestral or otherwise, and known or unknown.

It is not meant to confer "nationality". It is meant to confer identity.

quote:

African/Africa also DOES NOT equal Black since there are many Arabs/West Asians, Whites and Indians living there.

You are ignoring context. If I were in northern Wisconsin in the winter, 0 degrees would be warm.

The context for the phrase "black" is America. In America, where we are discussing the use of the term, black people are almost exclusively from Africa. No?

quote:

I just wonder why only Black Americans are only considered be called African American? Why not also White South Americans, Morrocans, Algerians, etc., When filling out a form, during the race/ethnicity part, I always see Black/African-American together and I don't understand why.

Noun versus adjective!

quote:

Originally posted by Black Viking:

quote:

Originally posted by James Wesley Chester:
That is precisely the point. And...that's why I 'harp' about that damn hyphen.

It denotes immigration; in most instances. That is definitely the case in the instance of the use of Africa.

Most descendants of America's slavery do not know their African origin. It is unknown.

We are a distinct group of Americans with the common heritage of a forced and separate place in the society in which we live.

We know it is a place that is different from the America occupied by Europeans.

It is occupied by we who are of unknown African ancestry.

I concluded it should be called African America; the place we are from. The place we developed to enable us to survive in a hostile land.

I agree with all of this. But I have one question. If the place that we are from is African America, wouldn't that just make us African Americans and not African American-Americans? Isn't the extractation of the hyphen enough to make the term accurate?

May I James?

African America is where we are from. It is akin to Italy or Nigeria. Hence we are African American-American

How'd I do?

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:
African America is where we are from. It is akin to Italy or Nigeria. Hence we are African American-American

OK, now I get it. Funny, it was so simple that I just couldn't see it. So, in this frame, it says that we essentially immigrated to America from African America. Correct?

you're correct MBM and I never thought about it like that...referencing Africa by birthplace does treat it as if it is a country....as in Japanese American.....I never had a problem with Black or African American....I was the one technically incorrect..I think.....but a black could be a European American when european is commonly used to reference a white person....hmm.......I see your point though.........

quote:

Originally posted by Black Viking:

So, in this frame, it says that we essentially immigrated to America from African America. Correct?

Let's see how much I've been paying attention. Jim, you grade me accordingly.

It's not that we immigrated to America from African America, but that our "nationality" is African American. We are from African America in the way that others proclaim their nationality from other countries. Our experiences in America are so profound that it is where are from.

Mind you - I don't buy any of this, but I think JWC will tell you something similar. I've always had trouble with not feeling "whole" with our African identity, yet just creating one from scratch with 'African American-American' - and expecting to feel some kind of integrity with that. If we can conjure a nationality in 'African America', then why don't we just cozy up to our favorite African nation and call that our nationality? Heck, Oprah's a Zulu - I'll be a . . . . a . . . . Malinke from Mali. That would seem to have greater credence/standing/integrity than fabricating something from scratch. (P.S. And who knows - it could even be true!)

I welcome both terms whether its African-American or Black. As the descendant of slaves, the term African-American gives me back a part of my heritage. Even though I have never personally stepped foot on the African continent, Africa is the land of my ancestors, the homeland my early ancestors must have yearned to return. It is a priveledge to me to carry the title African in front of American. As of yet, I have not taken the DNA test that Rick Kittles offers, so I do not know the my full African ethnic orgin, but no matter what I am still African American. As far as the term black, I embrace it as well. Black is strong and beautiful...

I prefer Black. And I readily admit that I bristle a little bit at being referred to as African. I think it's a bit different if you have a long family history in another country between the trip from Africa to the US.

quote:

Originally posted by Frenchy:

I prefer Black. And I readily admit that I bristle a little bit at being referred to as African. I think it's a bit different if you have a long family history in another country between the trip from Africa to the US.

You and I both lived in Africa for thousands of years. You stop off in Jamaica for 100, I go striaght to the U.S. Are we really that different?

I always find it so odd that an issue like this generates so much passion. I find it even odder that there's passion in the direction of not liking the term, "African-American."

So let me get passionate.

Folks, it's the only term that makes sense.

A culture developed in the US among blacks mostly descended from slaves. This culture, along with the ancestral history that goes along with it, has created, as JWC rightly tells us, a new ethnicity.

Because the substantive genetic and historical threads of this ethnicity came from Africa, the term African-American reflects that. Because the ethnic group itself began in the US, the term also reflects that.

The term is "broad," as Jasmine points out, but that's because it has to be: there were many different African ethnicities/nations/peoples that formed the basis of this group. There is no one nation in Africa that these ancestors came from, but they all came from Africa. Therefore, it's necessary and proper that our name reflect that.

And by the way, when I refer to African "Nations," I'm referring to places like Oyo, the Songhay, and the Igbo's land, etc. Republican borders are "European concepts." Nations most certainly are not.

As for MBM's question about why it's necessary to express the ethnic breakdown: because every ethnic group on earth has a name, it should be concluded that if an ethnicity exists, there should be a name for it. It can be further concluded that if African-Americans didn't have a name for their ethnicity, it's probably because of the adverse views that people -- including many of us, apparently -- have toward us. We have been seen as a breed, rather than an ethnicity. Our humanity can never be acknowledged as fully and as completely as it needs to be, if we are not seen as an ethnicity. Unless someone can argue why we are somehow not an ethnicity, then it gets a little silly to try to claim we're not one. Unless we are culturally exactly the same as some other group, with no differences from them whatsoever, then we must be an ethnicity unless we don't have a culture or a history or a language. Therefore, when no one asks Fagunwa why there's a need to break down his people by giving them a name (Yoruba), we as a people strongly need to stop trying to deny ourselves the same human dignity.