Do you want to see people stop judging you by the color of your skin? If so, maybe we should do away with the question of ethnicity on college applications. If you remove that, you've taken the first step towards a truly color-blind society. No form, in a truly color-blind society, should ever ask you about your race. If someone asks you about it, then you will be judged by it, which is contrary to a color-blind society.

Furthermore, though I can understand why you feel that you are owed something, what good would that really do? To create a sense of entitlement for one part of society only creates resentment from the other parts of society. If you start to ask for everything to be handed to you, instead of earning without your race even being given a thought, then people wiil respect what you have done. To ask for a free handout because of an institution that died out over 135 years ago will only keep your economic status from rising beyond a certain point.

Your true goal should be to be treated as an equal to everyone else. You should be accepted into a college based solely on the merits of your academic acheivement.

I'm still trying to figure out why any white person in America today who is not direct descendant of the people...founding fathers who created this nation, think that they HAVE THE RIGHT TO THIS NATION. Every white person in America, who rationalizes that they should not be held responsible for the Liabilities of the Past (because they did not create them), that the nation created in the past, Should therefore not be allowed to enjoy America. Neither THEY, nor their ANCESTORS had a part in the CREATION of the ASSET that is America...they just immigrated here after the fact. To assume the ASSET of America, which they did not create, then attempt to deny the LIABILITIES of America, because they did not create them, should earn them a ONE WAY TICKET BACK TO EUROPE!!!! If you don't want the Liabilities from the past, THEN YOU CANNOT HAVE THE ASSETS FROM THE PAST. SO START STEPPIN!!!!!

Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


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Noah The African in America

I stand corrected on the dates, but you are quite mistaken about why the Civil War occured due to the fact that slavery was never the issue. The issues were unfair taxes upon Southern exports and imports due to the taxes not being uniform plus the money being spent on the industrialization of the North. The south was being taxed around 48% while the north was being taxed right around 10%.

It wasn't until 1863 that Lincoln brought the issue of slavery as the cause of the war. This was done in order to secure a second term and was purely political. Prior to 1863, the North justified the war as to preserving the Union, but in reality all they wanted was to preserve their cash cow. It is a matter of record in Lincoln's own words that he didn't care about the slaves nor did he like black people because he saw them inferior.

Do not take the above as being a southern defender, but merely a short synopsis on why the war happened.

As far as hatred, bias, emotion, and partisan group memberships there was none in my posts because I truly want to know your opinions. If we cannot have an honest debate then neither of us can learn from each other nor can we overcome the differences in our society. Thus only by honest discussion can we achieve equality for all and ensuring that everyone's liberty is protected.

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Originally posted by pika2k:

If you remove that, you've taken the first step towards a truly color-blind society.

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With all due respect, wouldn't a more obvious and appropriate "first step" be for those that are racist, and act in a discriminatory way, to end their illegal, immoral, and unethical behavior?

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No form, in a truly color-blind society, should ever ask you about your race. If someone asks you about it, then you will be judged by it, which is contrary to a color-blind society.

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Again, with all due respect, isn't it a bit disingenuous for those that have been responsible for the necessity of affirmative action to now oppose it and talk about a "color blind" world.

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To create a sense of entitlement for one part of society only creates resentment from the other parts of society.

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IMO this is at the nexus of opposition to AA. I would ask, what about white entitlement? Do you propose eliminating that also? Whites created society with built-in preference and entitlements - for them. Apparently they only oppose those entitlements and preferences that are not in their favor.

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You should be accepted into a college based solely on the merits of your academic achievement.

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Like George Bush?



Now is the time to make real the promises of Democracy.

My you certainly are filled with hate aren't you of every white person in America?

Noah, name one entitlement for whites built into our government that has not been stricken from the books.

Really, I could not care less about what the true reason for the wedge between the north and south that led to succession. At best all we can do is draw a hypothesis and at worst conjecture based upon our own individual or group agendas. Had you taken the statement for the abstract moral imbedded into it, as opposed to diverging onto a tangent about taxes, you would have realized that the POINT was the creating WEDGES can be a GOOD thing in the long run, if not the short.

I am all ears to LEARNING; just do not try to build your thesis off truths that serve as exceptions to the general rule in order to nullify the truth of the general rule that we use on this forum. We are not predicating anything to be an ABSULUTE truth, which leaves the door open for people like you to attempt to discredit the rule by using exceptions. I will not work here my friend....the people here do not meet the intellectual PROFILE and stereotype of black intellectual inferiority.

Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


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Noah The African in America

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Originally posted by Noah The African:
I'm still trying to figure out why any white person in America today who is not direct descendant of the people...founding fathers who created this nation, think that they HAVE THE RIGHT TO THIS NATION. Every white person in America, who rationalizes that they should not be held responsible for the Liabilities of the Past (because they did not create them), that the nation created in the past, Should therefore not be allowed to enjoy America. Neither THEY, nor their ANCESTORS had a part in the CREATION of the ASSET that is America...they just immigrated here after the fact. To assume the ASSET of America, which they did not create, then attempt to deny the LIABILITIES of America, because they did not create them, should earn them a ONE WAY TICKET BACK TO EUROPE!!!! If you don't want the Liabilities from the past, THEN YOU CANNOT HAVE THE ASSETS FROM THE PAST. SO START STEPPIN!!!!!

Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


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Noah The African in America

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If people that migrated from Europe hve no claim to the Asset you call America, then why should anyone who is not a descendant of the original inhabitants of the Thirteen Colonies?

Come on, that is what makes this country great, that people from foreign lands can come here (legally, mind you), and start a new life without having to show some sense of ENTITLEMENT to their citizenship.

This is a start, Noah. I hold nothing racist against blacks because yes their history is tragic, but so is my own family's history. As I said I am one quarter Cherokee and I should have more reason to hate white people, but I don't due to the fact I wasn't raised that way. I judge a person on who they are not what they look like.

My first post was not to justify what happened, but to show my position that race should not matter.

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Originally posted by The_Patriot:

Yes, but if that man is no longer living the debt is to be written off otherwise it forces servitude upon the children.

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That tack, while convenient to your opinion, belies the facts. The same government that created the "debt", has the ability to make ammends to the very same families that were harmed.



Now is the time to make real the promises of Democracy.

That government died back in 1865 with the ending of the Civil War when the South lost. Based upon your logic then as a person that has Cherokee blood running through my viens I should get reparations for the hunting of the cherokees, the forced removal from their lands, and the cultural genocide that went well into the last century.

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originally posted by Noah
Had you taken the statement for the abstract moral imbedded into it, as opposed to diverging onto a tangent about taxes, you would have realized that the POINT was the creating WEDGES can be a GOOD thing in the long run, if not the short.

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Please, explain how a divided society can be a good thing when we have to share a land mass, local, state and Federal governments. How can that be a good thing for any period of time? It's mind-boggling to me that you want to create a wedge between poeple in this country, when it is clear that even Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and all those who strove for EQUALITYhad in mind.

Entitlements stricken from the books? What are you talking about? That like a person rapping a woman, then using the fact that he STOPPED rapping her as his defense for STARTING the rape and thus everything is even since the STOPPING NEGATED the STARTING. However, it ignores what TRANSPIRED IN BETWEEN.

Thus, America had laws that resulted in the RAPPING of black people, and we all know who got the pleasure or climax from the rape Via direct participation or voyeurism . The fact that the laws are now STRIKEN from the books, does not address what happened in between and the long term affects. A robber analogy is probably better, for the wealth generated from the robbery was passed down to descendants of the robbers of those who benefited from not being robbed, while the descendants of the robbed have inherited deprivation...post STRIKEN laws.

Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


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Noah The African in America

Many blacks have Native American Blood. La de da. I don't hate either. I do not hate but people with emotional investments of love or hate will not have those emotions changed by any logic, because logic and emotions are on different plans of existence and cannot repel the other. That is only your conjecture that the Government died in 1865....is that point of yours note in the constitution...Mr. Constitutional Scholar?

Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


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Noah The African in America

look, Noah, if we remove all racial standards, it will allow everyone to compete on an equal footing. Only then, can we really allow the best and the brightest to really excel. We should all get an equal chance to receive a good education and, thus, a god job. That's what capitalism is all about, competition. Let's try to get the competition on an equal footing instead of helping anybody.

Yes that is the truth. When the south seceded they repealed the United States Constitution and enacted the Confederate Constitution. Due to the ending of the war the Confederacy died and the United States Constitution took over again.

I don't see the point in baiting me because I honestly came here to learn and to discuss things. Baiting achieves niether of these goals.

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Originally posted by pika2k:

Noah, name one entitlement for whites built into our government that has not been stricken from the books.

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There are plenty. The distinction, in our justice system, between crack and powder cocaine is but one.

Look, government is a sub-set of a broader set of rules (both 'in fact' and 'de facto') that govern society. Are you suggesting that there is no bias built into America? If so, then how do you explain George Bush? Do you think anyone who is not a wealthy privileged WASP could become president with his personal history?



Now is the time to make real the promises of Democracy.

Look, now I am going to have to work a little later for wasting time with people with thesis based upon invalid or less valid premise. I do not have time to waste with you all anymore. You all get together and brain storm and come back with a thesis formed on the truths of the general rule. Until then, I do not have time to logically refute your intellectually stymied arguments formulated through the prism of partisan group membership, in politics, race and who knows what else. You can have at em MBM.

I will say this for now. Any intelligent person knows that if you start with an inequality, that treating both sides equally going forward will not change the inequality. The only way that inequalities can be restored is to manipulate one side in such a way that it makes things equal with the other. To attempt to treat blacks and whites the same in America, after over 300 years of unequal treatment resulted in the equalities of today, it is asinine to postulate now the removing race consciousness from America will create EQUALITY.

Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


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Noah The African in America

Holy Shit, you actually think that the difference between Crack and powder cocaine in the justice system is designed to help white people? I'm speechless, i cannot believe you actually think that is valid proof for bias in the government.

I pray that someday all your hatred will melt away, but until then, i must leave before you really piss me off.

Everyone is forgetting here too, that Affirmative action doesn't only apply to racial preferences, but also religion, gender and certain disabilities also. How many women attend the U of M, how many Catholics, how many Muslims, how many physcially disabled? The real issue behind the opponents of Affirmative Action is that they can't stand to see anyone who does not fit the norm get ahead. In America the norm means white, ango-saxon Protestant. Not poor, not black, not hispanic, not asian, and not physically handicapped.
Then of course we have people like Ward Connerly running around trying to get equal rights for whites, when it was his own family who encouraged him to do his best and Affirmative action that carried him on to get the opportunites he had to get ahead even further. He has lost his natural black mind like the rest of the black conservatives who side with the people who wish them ill and probably talk about them like they're idiots.

Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society
Malcolm X, 1965