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A1 |
I am not qualified nor motivated, Jiang, to explain to you why Asians are not entitled to things that Hispanics are. That is a conversation you should have on a Hispanic forum. However, in regards the Asians that were exploited in America, such as those you mentioned and those who helped lay the railroad to the West, your point is well taken. But what you are failing to acknowledge over 95% of the Asians in this nations are NOT DESENDED FROM THE ASIANS THAT WERE EXPLOITED HERE IN AMERICA. Likely 95% of African people in America are direct descendants of African slaves and Apartheid victims in the south. I bet nearly every black person on this forum can trace his or her ancestry to slavery in America. Can you trace your ancestry to the Chinese's that were brought here to be exploited in the late 1800's?
Problably not, but even if you could, the point is that the Asians in America today are not desended from those Asians who sacrafised, while African Americans ARE descended of the enslaved and discriminated against for centuries!!! Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( Noah The African in America |
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A1 |
Well...
If you look at the U of M (and probably most schools) classification of underrepresented minorities, those are all the people's who were exploited and/or conquered in settling what is all of America. Hispanics via Texas and other areas in the West... |
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D4 |
quote: But what about those who are? Should they benefit? Should AA be given on a case-by-case basis on ancestry? I believe most Hispanics/Latinos also immigrated here recently. This cannot be dismissed as irrelevant, because your argument falls apart if it is not consistent. To be fair, it is what each individual, not his or her ancestor, suffers that matters most. If one was able to crawl out of oppression and become wealthy, his children do not grow up suffering from the lingering effects of racism. Then why should they receive special benefits? They never suffered and all would be the same if they had white skin and a generations old rich family to begin with. The only valid reason I can find for AA is that it increases diversity and thereby improves the learning environment. But even then, I think socioeconomic background should matter more. Affirmative action has been abused as it is. People with 1/64 native american ancestry are checking that box, and white immigrants coming from South Africa are checking "African American". |
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D4 |
quote: How many Hispanics were lynched? And what about not being in the deep south during the civil rights movement? I don't see your point. |
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A2 |
quote: I experienced that during my taking the PSAT and SAT. Whites find anyway to use the system and have no shame about it. They have probably been doing this for at least 15 years, if not more. I suggest that we do the same and have no shame about it either. Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society Malcolm X, 1965 |
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A1 |
You think racism was limited to the south. Do some research on race riots then come back and talk to me.
You really need to take all of this up with the ruling class - aka Whites - because no Black person wrote any of these laws "we are all fighting over". |
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A1 |
I somewhat agree with you Nmaginate, about the current actions of Anglos being such that they are too guilty and thus we not recriminate the past. However, most of the contemporary actions by Anglos is rooted in a very "Just" rationale, which is not showing preference based upon race. However, in doing this they totally ignore the inequality that was created from the past, which has resulted in the inequality of today. Thus, mathematically, you can never created EQUALITY from an INEQUALITY by treating both sides of the equation equally going forward. This is basic Algebraic law. The only way to make an INEQUALITY and EQUALITY, mathematically, is to treat one side of the operand different and unequally going forward, until the equality is established at which point then both sides could be treated equally TO PRESERVE THE EQUALITY.
Thus, the inequality is a RESULT OF THE PAST and must be corrected, before the equal treatment that whites are using for their rationalization to object to black programs of preference today. If a person owes me for services rendered in the past and a person owes me for services rendered in the present, it does not matter to me whether the payment is applied to the past or the present, because the debt get accrued all together. Thus, it does not matter to me if affirmative action is to correct past or present racism, because its all part of the same account. Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( Noah The African in America |
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A1 |
NOAH,
My point was to highlight the current inequalities as it contradicts their "Just" rationale. We ALL already know about the historical imbalance. """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" "Racism systematically verifies itself anytime the slave can only be free by imitating his master." -Jamil Abdullah Al-Amin (H. Rap Brown) |
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A1 |
Jiang, Yes I believe that the descendants of those Asians who were exploited in the US should be compensated. I also hope you realize that wealth is passed down through generations. The Average African American has at least 13 generations in this nation. Thus, 10 of those generations in this nation were not allowed to accumulate wealth as a result of slavery or poverty and discrimination after emancipation, which was a product of slavery. Thus, 10 generations of wealth accumulation, did not get passed to the current generation of black people...wealth that WOULD have come from being paid for their labor or earning what the Anglo earned when he performed similar labor.
Furthermore, it dismisses the cultural and psychological effect of what happened to African people in America. What is the value of a culture and a healthy mental state of your own racial consciousness? There has been NO systematic assault and oppression in America based upon Race as has been inflicted upon African people. This has created and mental slavery in Black people that has transcended generation and helps to keep us down. Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( Noah The African in America |
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D4 |
quote: I've trying to make that point in saying Asians were discriminated against too. Now what is the rationale behind making the statement, "Where were they when Dogs & Water Hoses shaped what became AA policy?" Even with this AA policy, they dont benefit. |
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A2 |
OK Jiang, please give some examples of how this works. If Asians don't take advantage of the opprotunites afforded to them affirmative action. Maybe it's a pride thing, but affirmative action is there for Asians to use just like any other ethnicity or gender deemed a minority.
Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society Malcolm X, 1965 |
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D4 |
quote: I do agree that the lingering effects of slavery may have some effect on the current condition. African American never has a pro-academic tradtion or culture to pass on. However, affirmative action cannot be expected as a single savior. If one does not value education and has no intention to go to college, affirmative action means nothing. It only benefits the middle/upper class blacks who stress education. But do these people really need it? Should a rich black benefit over a poor white? Should Shaq Jr. benefit over Joe Lee, son of Korean liquor store owner in LA? Fairness can be measured only through personal hardships. Rewarding or punishing someone for what their ancestors did or did not do is wrong. All poor people should benefit and all rich people should not. Look for a long term solution. No amount of AA can encourage people that college is good for them. AA only benefits those who are motivated to educate themselves in the first place. Community outreach and improvement of lower education would be a better option. |
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A1 |
Yssys...most Asians do not even know that they are the beneficiary of Affirmative Action, just like many African Americans do not know this either. I know my company has an affirmative action policy. I also know that I am the ONLY black person on the IT staff, with many more Asians being employed here. Thus, unless one is told that they are Affirmative Action hire, how do they know? Many Asians are benefiting from MANY things, the product of black sacrifice, and just do not realize it.
Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( Noah The African in America |
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D4 |
quote: Asians do not benefit from affirmative action for college and grad school admissions (at most places). They are considered "overrepresented" since their percentage in the student body exceeds their percentage in the general population. To think that Asians are benefitting here is a huge misconception. they dont. It's not a pride thing. their never offered the benefits because they are so successful. |
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A1 |
quote:I would hope that, although we acknowledge it to some degree, we would realize that INTELLECTUAL wealth is passed down from generation-to-generation. Jiang... I don't see you fighting for Asians to "equally" share in the ghettos which help breed the large scale of "underachievement". That's what Black & Hispanics share now as well as past discrimination. The Asians should also attack Whites... Sen. Joe Biden said that a study at Stanford at some time determine that if admissions there at that time was strictly by academic merit Stanford would have been ALL ASIAN! So where is your sense of outrage for what we know is still a White majority or larger % ethnic group for those admissin??? Take your beef up with White people -law makers! |
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A1 |
You have to realize Jiang that the subset of Asians in America is not a microcosm of the Asian world. The majority of Asians in the world are poor and not very highly educated. The Asians that come to America are often represent the elites and cream of the crop of many different Asians nations, who come here as students. Others come here on Hb-1 visas for the technical expertise. Thus, the sample set of Asians in America represents an elite skew of Asian society as filtered by the US immigration policy.
If one want a more accurate picture of Asians, then you have to look at the Asians who come over as refugees who often thus represent the oppressed minority in their nations. There are many Mong and Laotians in Minnesota and they many of them live in housing projects are in gangs and high school dropouts. These Asians background are actually represent more of the norm of Asian than does the background of those elite Asians who come to America already educated and from achieving families. Thus, this filtering of Asians into America pits the Asian right extreme of the bell curve against America entire bell curve, which creates a false sense of discrimination against Asians. There are nearly 2 billion Asians in this world and if these countries release their elites to America, then that is unfair competition for the "average" American, who is not from an elite educated family background and this is why Asians generally do not need affirmative action in higher education and are the reason why they are also over represented. Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( Noah The African in America |
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A1 |
quote:Huh?? WHAT??? Then what's your argument? How can you be discriminated against if you are soooooooo succesful? And please show me a documented case where a Shaq's son gets in on race over others... Stop this hypothetical bullschit!!! WHAT ABOUT the Standford Study??? |
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D4 |
quote: Note NoahTheAfrican's post. He has it right on: http://www.africanamerica.org/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=60260642&f=79160213&m=79470644&r=69170744#69170744 There are many poor Asians that are shrowded by the myth of the model minority. Those people should receive speical consideration along with poor people of any race. Don't judge each race on the whole. Judge each individual. As for the rest of your post, I do not know what you mean. |
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D4 |
quote: My argument is that affirmative action is not a black and white issue and not correction for past wrongs because Asians do not benefit from AA in college admissions. I can be a millionaire, yet get made fun of on the street. Discrimination cannot stop one from being successful. I'm not saying I was discriminated against in the first place. Where did you get that impression? Asians populate college campuses because they study hard and try hard. Sitting around and blaming others for your current problems isnt going to help you. You have to work. As for Shaq's son, I used that as a hypothetical example. Why should rich blacks benefit over poor whites and asians? And what about the "Standford Study"? |
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A1 |
Jiang, I value you input and point of view and I do agree that assistance should be more precise. I think that there are TWO issues at hand here. One is deprivation/disadvantage that is the product of poverty and the Second is deprivation/disadvantage that is a product of a systematic assault on a race of people that manifested in economic, as well as, physical and psychological damage. I agree with you on the issues of the POOR. Poor people have a disadvantage in this and all societies and thus poverty or income should be a criterion for leveling the playing field. However, the validity of that does not EXCLUDE the validity of race based considerations. For in America, Class and Race produce the phenomenon of disadvantage. It just so happens that these two phenomenons are not mutually exclusive. Thus a poor white and a poor black do not face the same disadvantage in America by virtue of poverty. They may share some disadvantages, but they do not share the disadvantage of race. A black person can be disadvantaged by both race and class or just RACE regardless of income background of the family.
You have to realize that one of the consequences of being told that your race is inferior mentally to ALL other races over the last 400 years, has manifested a mental conditioning on a good percentage of black people, who have internalized this belief. Thus, many black youth do not have role models and images of black people achieving via their minds to negate this negative programming of history. Thus, what they often need is positive reinforcement of role models to emulate and become inspired by opportunities from society to undo this mental handicap. Even if blacks are less qualified in the short run and receive position over more qualified whites, the long-term affect is that it creates role models and blacks in profession that the next generation can look to break the conditioning of black mental inferiority of the past. Right now there is no place in the world where black people can look and gain inspiration about the state of blackness, and thus negate the propaganda of black inferiority. But creating a pool of successful blacks in the mental arena will change the way black people have been programmed to see themselves and their options. We have capacity for greatness in areas besides sports and entertainment. But we must first get those positive images out there, even if it means they are not the BEST-qualified applicants. As long as they are at the very least QUALIFIED, then affirmative action based upon race is justified to undo the racial damage of the past. Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( Noah The African in America |
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