I asked this question to sister Negrospiritual in the "our lives" forum. It evolved from a rift between Negrospritual and myself in opinions. I am not suggesting that I am RIGHT although I do believe what I say is true as I logically examine it. So I will like to expand the conversation and responses to the "Issues forum", for I seek to be enlightened towards the error in my reasoning and guided toward the truth. For it is the relationship between the African male and female and the healthy African children produced from it, that is the cornerstone of our future and rise, probably more than any other phenomenon. Thus, please participate in this discussion to help the cause and solution to the problems between our genders.

Negrospiritual, I want you to understand what I am saying, which is based simply on logic. I realize that my words invoke EMOTIONS in many sisters and EMOTIONS are force fields against logic and reasoning. I am a Systems Analyst by profession and I tend to look at things logically. The problem solving methodology of people in my profession trains one to look for WHAT CHANGED, when something that was working is no longer working. Thus, when examining the relationship between the African male and female in America, it appears to be not working as it traditionally has. Thus, the logical question is again WHAT CHANGED?

If we are going to ask the question WHAT CHANGED, then we need a BASE LINE for comparison. Thus, at what point in this evolution should serve as the BASE LINE or the point in which we could say that the relationship between African males and females were healthy and succeeded in creating the proper foundation for succefull child rearing, which is natures primary reason for bringing together the male and female? Was it the order that existed in Africa prior to our enslavement? Was in the order that existed during our enslavement? Or was it the order t that existed post emancipation or post civil rights movement? What we need to agree upon is a point in time when the relationships WERE WORKING for the benefit of child rearing FIRST.

If we are to assume that there existed a time where things were working on the evolutionary continuum between the relationship between the black man and the black women, then we must examine the attributes and roles being played that made it a success. Once this base line is determined and established, then we must HONESTLY ask ourselves WHO HAS CHANGED roles and WHAT changed them.... the male or female. If the male has changed roles, the problems are likely the resultant of his change. If the female has changed roles, then the problems are likely the resultant of her change or shift.

So, in order to carry on a constructive intellectual, none emotional search for the truth can you or anyone else start this off by defining the BASE LINE or the maximum point in time that the black male and female relationship was WORKING or at least WORKING BETTER THAN IT IS NOW.

I await any of your responses.

The truth has the effect of sunlight upon vampires when exposed to the wicked. If one recoils and does not embrace the light of truth....they are likely vampires.

[This message was edited by Noah The African on May 13, 2003 at 10:13 AM.]

From http://www.apa.org/journals/fam/fam143475.html

Please read the whole article... here is the 1st 2 paragraphs.

quote:

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ABSTRACT
This study examined the effects of marital status, family income, and family functioning on African American adolescents' self-esteem. One hundred sixteen adolescents participated, 64% of whom were female. Compared with boys with nonmarried parents, boys with married parents had higher overall self-esteem, even when family income and family functioning were controlled. Parental marital status had no effect on girls' self-esteem. Family functioning was a very strong predictor of self-esteem for both sexes. However, family relational factors were more important to girls' self-esteem, whereas structural and growth factors were more important for boys. It was concluded that African American adolescent boys with nonmarried parents are at risk for developing low self-esteem compared with other African American adolescents, but a more controlled and structured environment may buffer the effects of having nonmarried parents.

A number of significant changes have occurred in African American families over the past 50 years ( Tucker & Mitchell-Kernan, 1995 ). In 1950, married couples headed 78% of African American families. By 1996, this number dropped to only 34% ( U.S. Bureau of the Census, 1996 ). The divorce rate has also increased dramatically for African Americans. In 1960, only 78 per 1,000 African American women's marriages ended in divorce. In 1990, this number jumped to 358 per 1,000 ( Tucker & Mitchell-Kernan, 1995 ). It is expected that 75% of African American children born to married parents will experience their parents' divorce before the age of 16 ( Amato & Keith, 1991 ). The number of children raised in mother-only homes increased from 25% in 1960 to 54% in 1993 ( U.S. Bureau of the Census, 1996 ). These trends led some population experts to predict that by the year 2000 in major urban cities, 8 out of every 10 African American youths will have nonmarried parents ( Savage, 1989 ).

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The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.

Uhhhh...I would respectfully suggest that every forum participant USE THEIR OWN THOUGHTS and not cut and paste the words of others, unless you are void of blackness, a relationship with the opposite sex and or the intellectual ability to form a thesis.

The truth has the effect of sunlight upon vampires when exposed to the wicked. If one recoils and does not embrace the light of truth....they are likely vampires.

Your reply belie what you said about you using logic, facts are needed Noah for logic to work.

No, everyone, please read the Article, and don't tell me it does not speak to what is hurting us, it makes some great points.

Also, please give your opinion and if you have any other web sites regarding this issue please post them too.

Man you don't run nothin!!!

The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.

The story can never be gleaned from statistics because they are static and void of explanations. Furthermore, one must be cognizant of BIAS when reading the work of others. Some statistics may be included and others excluded to paint a picture that the author wants portrayed. Then the statistics are given subjective interpretations by the authors, based upon their biases.

No, do not cut and paste the words of others. Sure, if you construct a thesis, then use facts as 10% of the thesis as supporting evidence that is fine. However, to cut and paste 100% the thought and conclusions of others simply opens one up to be manipulated by propaganda. I have a great deal of confidence in the intelligence of our people, whose lives have come with enough experience as African people in relationships to understand what the problem are without having to search the web for the thoughts of others.

You, Junebug, is the likely exception...assuming that you are black.

The truth has the effect of sunlight upon vampires when exposed to the wicked. If one recoils and does not embrace the light of truth....they are likely vampires.

"...Was it the order that existed in Africa prior to our enslavement? Was in the order that existed during our enslavement? Or was it the order t that existed post emancipation or post civil rights movement?...maximum point in time that the black male and female relationship was WORKING or at least WORKING BETTER THAN IT IS NOW..."


With limited knowledge of African culture prior to our ancestors enslavement. I tend to lean more toward "post civil rights movement" -my grand parents era. The black family, in my opinion, for the most part remained in tact. Family was first.

Mom and I were discussing her childhood this weekend. She comes from a family of twelve. They grew up poor, on a farm, in the rural south. She stated that sometimes they only ate cobbler for dinner because that's all they had. Granny would take peaches from their peach tree and make the cobbler. Papa (my grand dad) and the kids ate first. Papa worked on a white man's farm, which rendered not enough money to support the family. On occasion, the white man would give papa a few hogs. Papa would kill them and that would be the family's main source of meat. When it was gone, there was nothing else. Granny made mom's dresses from flower sacks. Back then flour came in a decorative cloth sack. Papa got hand me down clothes for the boys.

Papa went to work, while granny stayed home and raised the kids. My mom has never told us about any fights that went on between her parents. Therefore, I assume there were few and if so they were not in front of the kids. I shared a little family history to say, my grand parents went through some tough times, but they loved each other, and stayed together until death separated them.

During my mom's generation, it seems, things began to change in terms of relationships and child rearing. My mom had failed relationships and wasn't nearly as strict on my siblings as her mom was on her. My father and stepmother, who were great parents, raised me. Both loved each other very much. My stepmother reminds me more of my grandmother in terms of her role as wife and mother in the home. During this time, (60s) women were working outside of the home. My stepmother worked alongside my dad (who was a window cleaner). After a days work, this woman still came home cooked dinner, clean house, and took care of dad and me. The woman was bad, and my father loved her dearly. Today, some women would scarf at her role. But that was her way, and her marriage lasted until she died. Dad died a year later. Some family members said from grief.

Personal observation: It seems when women changed roles and left the home. Some left it mentally. The family and their relationships then began to deteriorate. But women are not only to blame men changed too. My father took pride in working and providing for his family. My stepmother was not obligated to work with him. As I recall it was her choice. Both seem to have their assigned roles in the home. Dad worked, took care of the yard, the cars etc. My stepmother drove the better car. She took care of the in house duties -chores, daddy, and me. As simple as all this may sound it worked.

The roles and mentality of both women and men have changed. Thus, our relationships and families have changed.

Thanks Len, the experience you lamented in the South was the experience of my father and mother as well. They were sharecroppers in Mississippi. My dad told us that every year MR Charlie, who owned the land, would come and tell his father that they AMLOST made it. Made it being produced enough value of crops to cover what they owed the landlord. Then Mr. Charlie would take some of the food that that they grew, allocated for their substance. One year, my Bid daddy chased him off with a shotgun, when he tried to come and get the last of the food they needed to survive. History, reveals what my parents new, which was that sharecropping was just a step up from slavery.

Anyway, I would concur with you on your choice of a baseline and your other conclusions. Furthermore, I would like to add that many men WOULD treat a woman in the old fashioned way, by assuming many of the responsibilities that they now abdicate, provided the women is of a certain quality. I do not believe that a man treats women in a STANDARD way. I think the way a man treats and does for his women is dependant upon how he interprets her to be worthy of such. I do not mean to reduce men and women to commodities, but certainly in the marketplace one is willing to pay a higher price for quality, ignoring other issues.

I think it is like the chicken and the egg and which came first question. Was it men who changed women or women who changed men? I think bad relationships damage perceptions of the opposite gender as everyone looks to protect him or herself and put up shields to prevent from being hurt or used. African people have been hurt in this nation and we have all kind of defensive shields and facades masking and protecting us from pain. These sheilds are a double edge swords, however, as they keep away the bad....BUT ALSO THE GOOD.

The truth has the effect of sunlight upon vampires when exposed to the wicked. If one recoils and does not embrace the light of truth....they are likely vampires.

[This message was edited by Noah The African on May 13, 2003 at 12:47 PM.]

I believe that continuation of the species via procreation is the single most dominate biological directive of life, short of the instinct to survive. Marriage is or was a social construct created over human evolution to promote the most efficient means of preparing a created life for survival. Thus, I believe that the primary evolutionary purpose of marriage is to promote a conducive environment for child rearing.

I think that when examining the Anglos, that one will have to conclude that biologically, they are failing. The reason I say that is due to the fact that they are approaching the point of ZERO population growth. In fact, in many European nations, they have already reached this point. Thus, even though African people are economically failing, we are biologically very succefull, as we have probable the highest population growth rate, notwithstanding disease, famine and war. Indeed, nature seems to have a way of promoting reproduction on species that have high incidence of mortality and environmental threats against them.

I believe that the way that women were treated in the past SHOULD NOT be a model going forward. Men used their superior physical strength to dominate and control women and evolve an order based upon male dominance. However, the value and weight of physical strength is waning in importance in the modern world. The attributes of intellectual and emotional strength are rapidly changing the order. Thus, the roles of many and women were inevitable to change. I think that the African male and women are at the forefront of the reshaping of male female relationships and roles.

What we are experiencing how may simply be one step backwards, which will result in two steps forward or "Growing pains". As brother faheem said in another post, it does take a greater degree of strength to deal with the new sisters of today. He actually said that brothers who date outside the race were weak, but I will not go that far. I work out and there is a correlation between increasing resistance and strength gain. If I do not challenge and push myself, I never increase my strength and stamina. Thus, sisters of today are much more of a "Work out" than sisters of the past. However, those who are willing to stay with the routine end up stronger as a result, while those who seek the path of least resistance remain stagnate or weaker.

Personally, as long as a women maintains feminity, grace, and virtue I will give them the world...or what I can grab of it.

The truth has the effect of sunlight upon vampires when exposed to the wicked. If one recoils and does not embrace the light of truth....they are likely vampires.

IMO, the roles started to change with the decline of black men as the head of their households. While black men in this country have suffered and continue to suffer we managed to still somehow continue in the role of protector and provider for our families. I think that in the last 30 years we have really seem a decline in that role based mainly on the increased fragmentation of our family structure, the increased assualt on blackmen and our status in our communities and the rise of the black woman in our society and communities.

Where once black women were strictly stay at home and take care of the kids they are now going to college in numbers that even exceed the numbers for black men. As a result they are entering the job market completing directly with black men for jobs that were once considered male only. Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not for women staying at home and having just babies, but the fact is that blackmen not only now face white men and women for jobs but now have to directly complete with his black women also in a tightening job market.

Add in the continuing sense of loss of our manhood that some still feel due to it being stripped in front of families during slavery and the continued stripping that continues to this day, most black men easily give up their role instead of embracing it and making it stronger. They are conditioned to be weak instead of being strong. While appreciating the strength of black women, black men should be adding their own strength instead of rolling over and giving nothing.

Understand that of course that being head of the household does not mean that one is superior or inferior to the other spouse, it is simply a status that denotes the person most responsible for the protecting and providing for of the family.

I guess since everyone is talking about their grandparents, I might as well throw my two cents in.

My mom is from Mississippi and my dad from Alabama. Both are country folks, both in their 60's. My mother's parents had what appeared to be a very good relationship. They had six girls together and they were part of a very close extended family. My mother has an uncle about her age, many of her cousins all went to school together. So there was more of a community/family enviroment for her. My dad came from a family of 14 children. My grandfather used to beat the hell out of my grandmother verbally, physically, but she wouldn't allow him to beat her mentally or physcially. My grandfather was a HORRIBLE man. My grandmother was a midwife and at one time in all of her grandchildren's lives she had a major hand in their lives. Both of my parents have large extended families and their support, although things may not have always been rosy.
From my view I don't see things have changed drastically. It's just in our minds. Black women have always held their own ground in spite of conditions inflicted by overt racism in the U.S. Now that black women have opprotunites to go to school and become professionals, they are just handling business.
The thing that is changing the black family structure in my opinion are children moving long distances away from home for greater finanical or job opprotunities. This is not just affecting whites, but also blacks. When you live somewhere that you have no family can be very difficult and taxing on a person. I've been there.
We've always had family drama from the first family that ever walked on the earth. So that is always going to be around.

Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society
Malcolm X, 1965

I don't appreciate the off handed insult.

If I were anywhere near you I would beat your sorry ahz into the ground!

I was just providing some info.

Signing off for good!!!

The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.

Yssys,

Where from in Mississippi? My family roots are in the Cleveland/Clarksdale area and my wife is from Greenville. All of us located right in the middle of the Mississippi Delta.

No need to flex your badness in cyberspace junebug, for we all know that it cannot be tested. Thus, I suggest you demonstrate some intellectual badness, which can be tested and verified. SO RUN COME TEST BAD BOY TOP SHOTTA

The truth has the effect of sunlight upon vampires when exposed to the wicked. If one recoils and does not embrace the light of truth....they are likely vampires.

Hello Noah:

Yes, sisters today are intellectually smarter than the sisters of the past, but in some areas, we are weaker too, men as well. The women of the past, for the most part, were tough women. The black man would not have made it without their mental strength. Let us be honest, both men and women had values and strength that some of us today do not have. I think we would do well to mimic those qualities.

In regards to femininty: It is a myth that today's black women are overly aggressive and/or unfeminine. I for one, have no problem with being feminine. Being feminine is coming into rapport with being a woman and loving it. I rather enjoy being soft-spoken, mild mannered, dainty, and attentive to my husband's needs. I appreciate when a man opens the door for me, - it's nice, it's polite, and it's friendly.

There are jobs that "I" think are better suited for men. No pun intended to the sisters who do. But I would not consider climbing a telephone pole or driving an eighteen-wheeler. Heck, you can barely see my head in a SUV. That said I am comfortable with my femininity. Plenty black women are.

I think another aspect to look at is how our young men and women are being raised. The emphasis seems to be off raising quality children. Thus, people are slacking on instilling values into their children. There is an increasingly selfish and indifferent outlook in our community and the society as a whole.

We are the "me generation" and while we are concern about me, our children are being left to fend for themselves. Consequently, little monsters are popping up. How can one be a loving or caring person, when one has never been nurtured or shown love? How can one be self-respecting when one has not been taught how to be respectful? How can one value life when one has not been taught the value of life? These things affect how you interact with other people. The family base is the answer to many of our problems.

Sorry to digress off topic, but I could not resist further ignoring the irony of Junebugs signiture.

the truth will set you free...but it will first piss you off.

Now examine the tone of his last thread....he is certainly pissed....thus, I one can only assume that it was the TRUTH that did so. Consquently, he has set himself FREE of this forum .

The truth has the effect of sunlight upon vampires when exposed to the wicked. If one recoils and does not embrace the light of truth....they are likely vampires.

Yes I agree Len. We also have to examine other variable such as our consumer driven economy that creates habits and expectations that transcend into the social arena. You alluded to the truth that we live in the "me" generation. Well, that me generation is the product of the push towards "Individualism", which is a mindset that promotes individual consumption habits, which is better for the economy than are SHARED purchases.

You see, a country of singles, with everyone needing their own auto, their own place to stay, their own appliances, results in the maximization of economic demand, which in turn stimulates job growth as people demand more goods and services from the economy. If every adult living single were to get married and share goods and services, instead of having their own, it would create a reduction in domestic economic consumption that would create a depression if done abruptly. Thus, in institution of the family is being eroded partly as the resultant of the greed and pursuit of the maximization of profits by our capitalistic society.

As I mentioned before digressing, the behavior promoted to facilitate and stimulate economic activity, has crossed over into our social behavior as well. For example, the concept of "Loyalty" is not conducive to our economic system. For our economic system compels people to purchase based upon the best value and quality of competing brands. This is why the American Auto industry waned as people displayed little loyalty to American products simply sought to maximize their purchase.

This tendency away from loyalty and commitment has entered our social lives, consequently, as we seek to maximize or lives and relationships. Also, the economic system has and consumer mental manipulation via advertisement has addicted people to "newness" and change over ever so often, for this also stimulates the economy. Now, in our relationships, this habit create from consumerism has resulted in the trading in of old relationships for new ones as soon as the new smell and excitement wears off. Thus, relationships are like cars, with people trading them in every 3 or 4 years on a new one or just leasing. Relationships have becoming like chewing gum, where we chew until the sugar is gone, and then discard it for the next burst of sugar from the newness of a new stick.

The thing about advertising is that it shapes the minds towards certain behavior and expectations, which transcends beyond products and services and into or social behavior as well. So, in America, our minds and society are being altered an shaped to promote the economic goals and growth of this nation. In the process, the family unit our values and institutions are all suffering from the pursuit of economic greed.

The truth has the effect of sunlight upon vampires when exposed to the wicked. If one recoils and does not embrace the light of truth....they are likely vampires.

Jazzdog, my mom's family is from Natchez/New Orleans and everywhere in between. Highway 61 goes right through some of the family property just outside of Natchez.

Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society
Malcolm X, 1965

Hey yall!

I grew up in Mississippi too! My family is from the Philadelphia/Meridian area where unfortunately the three civil rights workers, goodman, chaney, and schwerner were killed in the 60's...

I ain't gonna tell my mama/daddy story except to say I am the youngest child of OOOOOOld parents. My dad will be 81 in 2 weeks. needless to say I was brought up old fashioned in many ways...but my mama ain't take no junk, dig?


Why do we accept white ways of relating to one another? Isn't it quite obvious that the daddy, mommy, 2 kids, a dog and a goldfish example with dad holding all the power doesn't work for families in black america? Black men and Black women have got to find a way to strike a balance.

Sorry, I will not wax nostalgic for the days when black women were relegated by both white and black men...that ain't healthy for our girls, nor our boys to see.

I think its hard for black men in some cases to strike a balance with a educated sister making more money then him or having a better career or a host of other things, it that ego that gets in the way. How many men do we know that just cannot fathom the idea of their spouse or significant other making more then them or having a better career. It's a mentality that some men just cannot get over.

Hell the day my baby started making more money then me I started planning my early retirement she even asked me how I felt about it, I was very humble as I put down the brochue telling me about the very many features on the newest Chevy truck and told my sweetie I was very content with her making more money then me. I then asked her if I would look good in a bluish silver truck with monster wheels

Yssys, if I am following the bouncing ball correctly I assume that your father's father was a mean person. I was just wondering because I was interested in the effect that it would have had on a child daughter of your grand father. Often times, it may have an adverse psychological effect on a girl child, by tainting her image or expectations of men and marriage. Such a female child may grow to perceived violence and abuse as to represent "A demonstration of love" or "what it means to be a man" and carry those images and expectations in her adult life and relationships. A male child of an Abusive father may in fact subconsciously become like the father, even though they may hate the way the father treated them. Such abuse and its transference of effect generational, shows abuses can be passed from generation to generation.

There is an old saying about the boss who yelled and put down the male worker who in turn went home and yelled and took his frustrations out on his wife, who in turn yelled and took our her frustration on a child, who in turn yelled and took his frustrations out on the dog, who in turn attacked the cat, who in turn attacked the mouse. The moral is the story is that the transference of abuse is hierarchical and starts from the top down with those with power abusing those with less power. Thus, one can kind of trace why the black man and women are often perceived as "Angry", for in the hierarchy of America, we have traditionally been very low and bottom ranking in the hierarchy of power.

African men were subordinate to the power of Anglo men, women and children and as each abused him, the angry and animosity had no outlet and was often unfortunately released on those whom he had power over, which were his wife and children. In an amazing demonstration of emotional strength, African women of the past absorbed much of the brunt of abuse and did not transferee it to the children, although many did. For the African women in the past UNDERSTOOD the forces shaping the attitude and behavior of the African male in an Anglo dominated world that hated, feared and needed him at the same time. This understanding of the females kept African families together although many women suffered abuses.

If I would venture a guess, Yssys, I would bet