Negrospiritual, it is a fallacy to assume that what is true for the "whole" is thus equally true for each and every "part" that compiles into the whole. Yet, that is what you are trying to establish as "true" in your argument. Black people were oppressed in America, but that does not imply that each and every individual experienced the same level of oppression in degree or kind for that matter. And in terms of gender, women were oppressed along side with men, but women were not oppressed in the same way that men were oppressed. For instance, you would certainly not argue that men were not oppressed via rape, to the same degree as females. Just because we are "black" does not mean that oppression was equal in degree and kind for each and every black person in this nation, because it was and is certainly not.

I did not spell out what brothers need to do because brothers are not the ones complaining and lonely about their relationships situation. Actually I think brothers are rather enjoying their status as being in greater demand than supply can fill and therefore are exploiting the situation of the "man shortage".

I think what we as a people need to do is to develop a consciousness and value system that goes beyond the misogynistic and self gratifying pursuits of the flesh and individualism and learn to gain reward from a purpose larger than oneself. Until that happens, nothing is going to change because it serves the individual self-interest.

As black people, the truth IS our light and salvation and if we develop distaste for the truth, we will never rise. If I found that the Ku Klux Klan made statements that I could not dispute with a larger truth, I would not want to, but I would agree and propagate that truth. It may seem as if I am extremely pro African, but what I really am is really pro the seeking and speaking of truth the best I can understand it. Black people need not embellish or distort the truth, because the reality of our situation is stronger than fiction.

The truth has the effect of sunlight upon vampires when exposed to the wicked. If one recoils and does not embrace the light of truth....they are likely vampires.

I agree with you Keylargo. Young men at an early age learn to emulate the behavior of older males that seems to be rewarded by women. There is a long held belief amoung many males that the "good guys" finish last and get "dogged out" by women whilst the thug and player type brothers get rewarded with the finest and receives the most affection and attention. Thus, it is the system of rewards that shapes the behavior in men. If women keep rewarding bad behavior, brothers and going to keep perpetuating it. I agree that it is a self-esteem issue too, but don't assume that many brothers are not also insecure. They may simply manifest it in different ways, such as not opening up his heart to let it be hurt and used.

The truth has the effect of sunlight upon vampires when exposed to the wicked. If one recoils and does not embrace the light of truth....they are likely vampires.

When I read the words of Black men or Black women stating they do not limit themselves to explain a relationship that may be or is being challenged I get a little bit perturbed. The use of phrases like "I do not limit myself" is nothing more than a fancy way of saying I like to date white men or white women. The truth is we all limit ourselves for different reasons, and those whom exceed the limits other men or women have should not use their willingness to do so to explain a relationship they are currently in. When ever I am told by Black men or women that "I refuse to limit myself", I always ask does this mean you are willing to date someone of the same sex? Does this mean you will participate in an orgy? Does this mean you will participate in bestiality? The limits we put on ourselves are based on our belief and how we feel concerning a certain thing but any individual who go beyond the limits of someone else can not use their willingness to exceed those limits as reasoning for doing what ever it is they are doing. You never hear gay men and women say they are involved in homosexual relationships because they refuse to limit themselves to the opposite sex; this explanation is only used by Black men and women trying to explain their relationship with a non Black person. How about a pedophiles saying to us, I have sex with children because I refuse to limit myself to adults to explain his or her behavior. Don't get the legalities of such mixed with the principle being espoused here; surely an adult child relationship is illegal in the U.S. due to the culture we all grew up in, However in other parts of the world children can consent to relationships with adults. Why am I saying all this? I am saying this to point out the fallacies in the statements made by Keylargo in this thread.

Cheerleading for other Black women to date white men because this is behavior that you have engaged in, is repulsive and in my view sick. Imitating the behavior of Black men in their backwards and out right abandonment of the Black family is in no way a remedy for the problem we are faced with; it only contributes to the continued destruction of the Black family. I can not intelligently speak on why Black men do not ask you out on a date Keylargo nor can I speak intelligently as to why you believe you would rarely go out if you waited for such to happen, but what I can say Keylargo is that your loyalty to Black men is not about being loyal to those group of men who choose not to ask you out, Your loyalty to Black men is based on a love you should have for Black people overall and not one segment of our community. We all want a mate who treats us nice and do all the good things we expect in a mate and dedicating yourself to helping rebuild the Black family and our people by looking for a mate who is Black that you may have a family than can be an example for young Black children coming up is not at all a limitation. If you like to date white men and you find white men attractive then say so, but do not patronize us with statements like "I refuse to limit myself" because I refuse to sit back and watch any Black woman or Black man cheerlead for other Black women and Black men to engage in behavior I believe is destructive. Courting, Dating and Marrying white men does not in anyway contribute to the rise of Black people and if I am wrong then show me how this behavior contributes to our rise and allow us to sustain our independence as a people. Your view on HBCU's is becoming clearer with every word you write on this board.

This is written with nothing but love for you Keylargo and though the tone may be harsh, know for sure it is written out of Love for you and Black people.

-------------------------
The Black man and woman in America is a nation of people; a stolen and lost nation, but a nation none the less. The U.S. just destroyed Iraq in thirty days and has allocated close to $80 billion to rebuild Iraq. The Black man and woman in America was terrorized and destroyed for well over four hundred years. How much do you think it would take to rebuild a nation that was destroyed and bombed for four hundred years if it takes $80 billion to rebuild a nation destroyed in thirty days?


More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem

Faheem, I do not think your response was harsh at all.

Limiting myself to me means only allowing myself to date men of only one race. If it means something different to others then that's their interpretation.....

Dating men of other races is not something that I actively pursue. It just turned out that way.

I am not dating someone who is of another race because I want to get back at brothers who do so. It's because the guy asked me out and he seemed like a nice guy. Remember- I do not date one race exclusively. I have dated many black men and will continue to do so when the opportunity presents itself.

Am I supposed to say no if a guy asks me out and he happens to be white?

[This message was edited by keylargo on May 21, 2003 at 06:00 PM.]

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Your view on HBCU's is becoming clearer with every word you write on this board.


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I meant what I wrote about HBCU's. I do not understand what is so wrong with me wanting to see my people fully integrated into society. I do not like it when I go into a restaurant, store, school or whatever, and see only one or two black people there while the rest of the people are white. I want to see us everywhere-and not in little patches sprinkled here and there like I do now. That is my dream.

I say again Keylargo, saying "I do not limit myself" is only used to justify a relationship that may be or is being challenged. You have chosen for what ever reason to include white men in the pool of men you date and saying you choose not to limit yourself is not the reason you have done so. You have your limits and you actively choose what men you make yourself available to. I am sure if some man who you felt you were not attracted to physically, mentally or sexually ask you out, you would not hesitate to turn him down. If some super fine woman who is a Lesbian asked you out on a date you would say no unless you are bisexual. You have limits Keylargo, one of them just isn't dating Black men exclusively.

When I hear phrases like the one you are using it hints that those of us who choose to date Black women or Black men exclusively are some how limiting ourselves because we do not see it as something constructive and something that helps in the struggle of Black men and women in America to court, date and marry white men and women.

You now say you are not dating white men to get back at brothers but in your early message you clearly stated and I quote "i think more black women should open themselves up to men from other races. Black guys have done it so why shouldn't we? should i be loyal to black men and not date until one decides to ask me out on a date?"
The message in this is your action is a reaction to the action of Black men, you are not trying to get back at brothers from doing so but clearly you are doing so because they have done so. Do I have to ask you that question that all Black mothers ask their children at one time or another? I think I do. If Black men jumped off a Bridge, would you?

To answer your question; "Am I supposed to say no if a guy asks me out and he happens to be white?" You do not in the least bit see how condescending this question is, do you? People do not just happen to be white or Black, they are that from their birth, since the first time you met them and will continue to be so after you and them have parted ways. I do not and will not tell Black men and women who they should date personally unless asked, however I will and I do speak to the things that I see as a continuation of the destruction of the Black family, I will speak to what I believe the mentality is of those who choose to court, date and marry white men and women. There will be exception to the rule who do not fall within the scope of what I say but if we are honest with ourselves we would recognize the job that has been done on the Black man and woman in America that has made us self destructive and we will recognize how and why we have no loyalty to our people. Whatever you are seeking in a mate can be found in a Black man, and choosing to only date Black men and women is not in any way a limitation it is a sign of love for self and your ambition to rebuild the Black family by doing your part in forming a successful Black family that can be an example to all other Black men and women that Marriage between Black men and women is as much a resource in our community as the America dollar is in our community.

I have more to say but I am short on time here....... Maybe I will continue but I think what I said here is sufficient..

-------------------------
The Black man and woman in America is a nation of people; a stolen and lost nation, but a nation none the less. The U.S. just destroyed Iraq in thirty days and has allocated close to $80 billion to rebuild Iraq. The Black man and woman in America was terrorized and destroyed for well over four hundred years. How much do you think it would take to rebuild a nation that was destroyed and bombed for four hundred years if it takes $80 billion to rebuild a nation destroyed in thirty days?


More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem

Faheem, that was an EXCELLENT dissertation on the psychology involved in "Not limiting oneself" and I agree with you 100 percent. The fundamental assumption implicit in that statement is that one cannot reach their heights with a particular race, in this case African men. Thus, they seek out other races to break the limitations imposed when attempting to date black men.

In fairness to sisters, the do suffer a supply/demand dilemma. With so many brothers incarcerated, murdered, homosexuals, unemployed, underemployed, uneducated and all the other vestiges of oppression, the available pool of brothers does not meet the demands of the supply of sisters. Consequently, these sisters can either "share men" or be lonely. Furthermore, just being real and raw, the sisters who look the best are generally going to feel "the least LIMITED" by dating black men and visa versa. Also, sometimes people can live in areas were there are not many African people and thus if they want to date, for reasons of pragmatism, they have to look outside their race.

I kind of look at the situation like the situation of inter-racial adoptions. Given that there is a supply and demand gap between the supply of African children needing homes vs. the demand from the black community seeking to adopt, the resultant is that many African children will be without parents unless other races adopt them. For me, I would much rather see a child, who would otherwise not be adopted, find a family of another race who are willing to love and care for them as opposed to being shuffled around foster care until they can find a black family. No one should be without love.... especially children and women.

My discomfort is born from people who HAVE GOOD OPTIONS and OPPORTUNITIES, choosing to cross over. If there is a child who is very likely to be adopted by African parents, but an Anglo couple seeks to adopt the child first, I would rather they not be able to adopt the child, knowing that a African couple will likely do so in the near future.

I do not know what your OPTIONS are Keylargo, but I do agree with Faheem. I mean there is a difference between dating.....and fornicating.

When I first moved to Minnesota it was culture SHOCK. I moved here from Detroit, and area with over 1 million Africans (and CONSENTRATED), to an area of less than 100,000 in the whole state (and DISPERSED), at the time. I had moved in with a cousin who was living in a suburb of Minneapolis. Thus, when I went to work, all I saw were Anglo women. When I went home (cousins place) all I saw where Anglo women. Man when I seen a sister, I dang near broke my neck trying to look at her. I even went as far as to go the Minneapolis chamber of commerce and found a map that plotted the location of the African population in the twin cities, then headed for that area in my car. I did not date for over a year. All the brothers here were telling me that I was crazy, because Anglo women here LOVED the African man. Cats was telling me stories about how they would meet these women in the park and go behind the bushes and get their thangs lubed. Brothers here were not looking for any sisters. But I just could not do it. I needed a sister and not just ANY sister. So I waited, learned the area better and finally got in an arrangement where I was running into more sisters and I found my bride. Sometimes...the best things come with patients.

Any brothers who want to date some sisters, Minneapolis is the place, because a lot of these brothers are too busy chasing Anglo women.

The truth has the effect of sunlight upon vampires when exposed to the wicked. If one recoils and does not embrace the light of truth....they are likely vampires.

[This message was edited by Noah The African on May 22, 2003 at 06:54 AM.]

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Originally posted by Noah The African:
Faheem, that was an EXCELLENT dissertation on the psychology involved in "Not limiting oneself..."

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No it wasn't. It was painfully flawed along with a lot of so-called brilliance being bandied about in this thread. "Not limiting yourself" in terms of who you date means that you're not imposing any limits on your natural tastes. Your natural tastes, which have developed over time, lead to natural limits on who you date. Any limit beyond that is self-imposed and is a sign of weakness. If you're a man who's truly all about black women, your natural tastes should limit you to black women. You shouldn't have to will yourself away from dating white women. You shouldn't have to "limit yourself;" your own natural inclinations do the limiting for you.

That's why most normal people don't commit bestiality. That's why straight people aren't gay. If you're not attracted to animals in the first place, then you don't have to "impose limits" on yourself to avoid messing with them! A person who is attracted to animals who nevertheless refuses to engage in such behavior is the type of person who is "limiting himself." He's JUSTLY limiting himself, but the fact is, he sees the need to impose a behavioral limit that his internal psyche didn't impose on him.

Personally, black women vastly outdo white women when it comes to whom I'm attracted to. And beyond physical attraction, what we have in common weeds out most white women that I would find physically attractive. Therefore, I don't need to impose limits on who I choose to date. The validity of my approach speaks for itself: I have almost never dated outside of my race, and I've never had a relationship outside of my race. Anytime I've thought about it, some more attractive looking black women came along.

It doesn't mean that I would never date a white woman. But eschewing personal behavioral limits in favor of letting nature take its course keeps you true to yourself to a degree that most so-called Afrocentrics will never attain. And it's a much stronger statement to date black women because you actually like them best than to actually like white women better but "resolve" not to give in to them. And if you do date outside of your race, so what? At least you're being true to your natural tastes and tendencies. Leave KeyLargo alone. ..

Wow!!!

AFter all that's been said I've just had a great time reading this, being a new member and all. I'm glad among all things that black people are learning to recognize that some of us are different than others. Maybe it has something to do with past connections to certain types of african tribes. What do I know?

KeyLargo and Vox,

I can certainly understand both your points of views, but I can also understand Noah's and Faheem's. IMHO, it all comes down to what is your PREFERENCE. My preference has always been and will always be a black man. Now being an afro-american woman and married to an afro-american man for nine years now, I have had the honor and the privilege and the blessings of God to experience life the way I believe he intended.

First and foremost I grew up with two loving parents who struggled to raise 8 children. We were taught what I believe every child should be taught, respect, pride, dignity, work hard for what you want, do unto others and you want to be done unto, and put God first in all that you do.

However, my mom was the dominate person in my household, which at the time, I really didn't understand what my father's role was in the family. Nonetheless he was there and he was the provider and protector. My mom handled all the business (paying bills) and taking care of the kids (punishment, etc.).

As I grew older I realized how my first few relationships were ruined by my attitude towards men because of the way I watched my mom be dominant over my father, it was the only way I knew to treat a man, then I realized that I needed to change the way I think if I wanted to have a lasting relationship.

Now I don't want the ladies to take this the wrong way because it's only my choices and experiences that I speak from. When I met my husband I was a complete mess. I was young but foolish, smart but ignorant, beautiful but unseen. Now he was seven years older and much more experienced in the school of hard knocks but once he got through my tough skull I realized that if this man was willing to sacrifice himself to try and save me even though I didn't care to save myself I knew that he truly loved me. He put up with alot of my growing up years and ofter times I wondered why. This is not to say we didn't have our hard times but eventually it got to the point where that old side of me starting surfacing again. At that point I knew if I didn't allow this man to be a man that I would lose him over nothing more than a CHOICE. Between me and God, I made the right one. Now 16 years later, I am better employed, we're both in college and doing just fine. He is my definition of what a man should be. Strong, supportive, Tough, Loving but don't take no mess off me and God Fearing. He is the head of his household and and I wouldn't want it any other way.

Now, I know nothing in life is perfect but I've realized that learning to be understanding and compassionate is what has kept my marriage, ALL GOOD. This is not the only answer but it is a part of what's wrong with black men/women relationships. We have no understanding and compassion for one another and it seems we are all sometimes to self-centered to realize when something is best for YOU.

Oh contraire Vox, that which is natural is that which humans can do. There is no act that a man or woman can do that is not natural to that man or woman meaning that his or her nature makes it possible for him or her to do that. Do not mix the nature of a thing with that which is an abnormality. Homosexuality for all tense and purposes is an abnormality as it relates to the nature of Human beings but it is natural to that man or woman that is a homosexual. There are only two genders of humans and that is male and female, and the equipment we were born with is made for one another that we may help in the procreation of the human family. However our physicality's has little to no power over the mind and any other chemical imbalances or internal workings of the human body. Hence... Though one has eyes does not mean he or she can see, though one has legs does not mean he or she can walk and because one is a man or a woman does not mean he or she will be attracted to the opposite sex.

The biggest flaw in what you have written is you diminish the free will of the human beings to choose what ever we do, to saying it is the nature of a thing to do it and limiting oneself from doing what he or she feel is natural is a sign of weakness. The one thing about nature is that it is true for everyone, less we believe in that which is natural to one group of people to be a sign of superiority or inferiority. I will submit to you that Keylargo being of the female gender, it is natural for her to be attracted to the male species of the same kind regardless of external components like, height, weight, race, education and income. The physicality's of a man and woman dictate that he or she is made for one another but our physicality's have no power over our mind, thinking and what has taken place and affected certain realities in our lives. That which has happen to the Black man and woman in America overrides any attraction physically I may have to a white woman because she is a woman, Our history in America is one of destruction and that legacy lives on today and is manifested in many forms and one of them being Black men and women abandoning one another and finding comfort in the arms of those who have and continue to benefit from our destruction here in America. In a perfect world a Black man or woman being with a white man or woman means absolutely nothing but in the same way September 11, 2001 changed how America do business, our enslavement, the lost of our religion, our norms and our culture has changed everything for us. It is binding on every Black man and woman in America to help in the rebuilding of the Black family and Black people in general here in America and in the Diaspora and courting, dating and marrying white men and women is not part of our rebuilding stage.

Who keylargo date means absolutely nothing to me and does not affect me in anyway as an individual but she and I are part of the Black family and from that position is how I approach her "CHOICE" to date white men.

Your whole argument rest upon a thing being natural to a person but how do you distinguish between what is nature versus nurture? You can not tell me that the rate at which our successful brothers are marrying none Black women is nature and they are just following their nature and that is to not marry a Black woman. When all things are equal and we have done away with self hatred in the Black community then we can honestly measure what is nature and what is nurture. In our present condition in America where we are not the majority, it is difficult to determine if we are acting, or reacting.

I have a Question for you Vox? Are you saying that beside those things that are part of human nature like male and female attraction that there exist another nature and this nature is determined by the behavior of the man or woman and if so how can we know that this thing you see as nature for that man and woman is not nurtured?

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The Black man and woman in America is a nation of people; a stolen and lost nation, but a nation none the less. The U.S. just destroyed Iraq in thirty days and has allocated close to $80 billion to rebuild Iraq. The Black man and woman in America was terrorized and destroyed for well over four hundred years. How much do you think it would take to rebuild a nation that was destroyed and bombed for four hundred years if it takes $80 billion to rebuild a nation destroyed in thirty days?


More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem

First, Faheem, I wasn't talking about "nature" in the sense of biological nature. I meant what would come natural to a person, given his/her development & experiences. Remember, I referred to "Your natural tastes, which
have developed over time." If they've developed over time, I must not be talking about biology, neurochemistry, or anything like that. Biological "nature" and nurture both play a role in shaping that, but I'm talking about "natural" tastes NOT as opposed to "unnatural" or "abnormal," but natural as opposed to "artificial," as in the intentional, politically-driven attempts at shaping what your tastes SHOULD be. So bestiality may or may not be "unnatural," but to be the opposite of "natural" in the sense I mean "natural," a person who's into bestiality would actually have to FORCE himself to be into it. I doubt that ever happens. For whatever reason, he just came to see that as something he's interested in. I believe that you don't consciously choose your actual tastes in anything. Try as I might, for example, but I just can't seem to ignore that "Ignition Remix" by R. Kelly. No amount of "human free will" has been able to convince me to dislike that song. And I really want to dislike it. (Wait, why am I admitting this?)

So, apologizing for my unclear word choice earlier, my statements stand. The way I read your last question, this explanation should clarify why it doesn't apply.

Now, I understand your point about the need to rebuild. But understand that a person who honestly feels this way, who nevertheless thinks members of the opposite sex are attractive, are imposing a "limit" on who they will seek out as a mate. Instead of 1-100, they're eliminating 72-86. I have to take back what I said before: actually, it's probably noble to do such a thing, at least as much as a "weakness" as I said earlier. But it would be better if more of us didn't have to ignore their desires; if we instead didn't have as much of the desires in the first place. It's unrealistic to expect that all 35 million African-Americans should adhere to that. And at this point, it's clear enough to me that most of our problems are caused by other factors to really worry about this.

I have yet to see any of the brothas on this board advance any recipe for change in brothas. What are the things brothas need to do to improve black love? black life? black family? Do brothas know?

First and foremost...we have to learn to embrace sensibility.......on a continuous basis....even when it conflicts with what personally appeases us......and never compromise a set of values we have developed based on sensibility, self-respect and embracing respectible, sensible women......the rest grows from that....

I understand and understood clearly what you were trying to say the first time Vox, if you are going to argue a thing being natural as opposed to artificial then clearly their have to be a standard that we all consider natural that can in no way be influenced by external components because the definition of natural as opposed to artificial means that it is uninfluenced. So using natural in the sense that is opposite of artificial and applying it to human behavior does not make sense because human behavior is influenced by millions of things which makes it artificial. Using what you have said we can say that a man raised in an abusive home and now abuses his wife and children is acting in accordance with his nature because abuse to him is natural and it is normal. A thing being classified by you as "natural" as opposed to artificial meaning that it was developed overtime means that it is nurtured and only became natural for that person to do such because he or she was nurtured in an environment that made said behavior acceptable or normal over time hence,, your definition of nature which really is artificial.

Black men and women in American haven been robbed of everything did not establish an identity for ourselves before we integrated with white folk and because of that we have transformed from Negro to Black to African-American and still have yet to agree on who the hell we are as a people. There are plenty of things that contribute to the destruction of the Black family; drug abuse, illiteracy, and self hatred just to name a few however because a particular form of destruction is one that only have an affect on the individual involved in the behavior and does not have a direct affect on anyone else outside his or her immediate family, we still should be worried about that behavior and the person involved in said behavior as a people. We are discussing relationships between Black folk who court, date and marry none Black men and women; to point out that there are greater forms of destruction and that this form is not as damaging as those, does not in any way negate the fact the Black men and women who court, date and marry white men and women are perpetuating the destruction of the Black family. I say again, it is "BINDING" on every black man and woman to do their part in helping lift our people up out of the hell we are in, "BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY". We can not talk Black and sleep white in this day, like many of the brothers did in the 60's and 70's and as Henry Lois Gates is doing today. This proves further that you can be educated in Black history, write books on slave narratives and teach Black history at a prestigious university and still can not escape the affect the marketing campaign that says the white woman is the most beautiful thing on the earth has on its viewer.

So now we have come full circle and back to breaking down what it means when Keylargo says she does not limit herself, and I repeat my words from above that she do not date white men because she refuse to limit herself. She have limits however dating Black men exclusively is not one of them; the only reason she have given why she date white men is because Black men date white women.

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The Black man and woman in America is a nation of people; a stolen and lost nation, but a nation none the less. The U.S. just destroyed Iraq in thirty days and has allocated close to $80 billion to rebuild Iraq. The Black man and woman in America was terrorized and destroyed for well over four hundred years. How much do you think it would take to rebuild a nation that was destroyed and bombed for four hundred years if it takes $80 billion to rebuild a nation destroyed in thirty days?


More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem

I'd like to comment on why I only date black men. I am strongly physically attracted to black men. The way they swagger when they walk, the various kinky textures of their hair, the way they hold me in their arms. I like the way the right black men talk to me, how they appreciate my real body. Even if I gain a little weight, they still think I'm sexy. Black men and women are a perfect match in my opinion.

I saw Queen Latifa and Chaka Kahn on TV last night and there was absolutely nothing but BEAUTY. When an African chooses an Anglo for a mate and in the heat of an argument they call you a term of non-endearment, what the hell does one do in that situation? I can't imagine being subjected to that kind of crap. If you think Anglos are so beautiful, go to a nursing home and see the real deal when there are two wisps of hair and a hole where the mouth used to be with them zonked out of their minds. How can anyone, anyone, anyone be all locked up in the throes of "love" with the children of your enslavers? These people hate your guts and tell you so every single day of your lives. Are you deaf, dumb and blind???? There are many colors of mates that can be chosen without going allllll the way to pale and humiliation, but then, this is JUST my opinion. I think like no one else, as you all know. That's because I was an ONLY child.

I think it takes more strength to limit oneself than to not limit oneself. The inability to limit oneself creates the state of "drunkard ness" and is not a good thing. Not drunk in the particular context of alcohol, but in the abstract sense of "Excess" or over indulgence. Not being able to limit oneself can lead to all types of problems. For instance, I have chosen a life mate, but my attraction and desire of other women has not faded, thus, I must LIMIT myself for a LARGER PURPOSE of morality and keeping and maintaining a healthy family unit. So in a sense, placing a limit on human desires is what keeps the world from turning into total chaos. This is why society imposes laws, so as to place limits and consequences upon those who cannot limit themselves and thus causes harm to the collective.

I think that part of the attraction of America; will be part of its demise. The individual freedoms philosophy that this nation promotes will result in individuals stretching limits to the point that the overall society will deteriorate. This is occurring now, as the concept of SHAME is nearly extinct in our society. Shame is a group concept, were one has to first be concerned about the general opinion of others and cognitive of the NORMS of behavior of society. That concept cannot exist were individualism freedom is the highest order. Thus, you have the acts that Faheem mentioned such as homosexuality, bestiality, promiscuity and all sorts of others manifestations of being unbound from self-imposed or society imposed limits. Remember again that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Thus, in this context, as individuals increase self-benefit via unlimiting themselves... it comes at the equal and opposite expense or loss to the of the group or society to maintain its goals for the collective.

The more I think about this world that we live, the more I am convinced that BALANCE and MODERATION is the key. One cannot achieve balance and moderation without the strenght and ability to impose LIMITS.

Opps...I kind of got off topic and digressed from the specific to the general. Anyways, my overall point is that if African people are going to rise as a group, then individuals need to have the strength and desire to place self imposed limits on him or herself. For the more we ignore the goals and needs of the African collective, the more we emulate and assimilate to the point that we become like the people that put us in the hole that we are in now, thus ensuring that the collective stays in the hole as we become the enemy of our own people.

[This message was edited by Noah The African on May 23, 2003 at 08:27 AM.]