Often we talk about the problems in the Black community and how we are exhibiting the wrong attitudes in certain critical areas as family, male-female relationships, towards education, politics, our economics and our future in general...

I want to know since we talk about things like Out-Of-Wedlock-Births, etc. and how our families aren't intact - whether nuclear or extended -

can we say that we have a culture that is "intact"?

Essentially,

do African-Americans have a culture that is unique, instructive, respectable and honorable? ... One that is admired/respected by others???

We say that our culture was stripped or destroyed by slavery, etc... What does that mean to us today and what does that say about the "culture" we do have??

• What are our values?
  
  
• What is our collective vision for the future?

______________________________
"At the heart of this project
is the continuing quest to free ourselves...
an ongoing search for models of excellence
and possibilities within our [African] culture by which
we speak our own special *human* truth to the world and
make our own unique contribution
to the forward flow of human history.
- Dr. Maulana Karenga
______________________________

Reply to Nmaginate:

"Do African-Americans have a culture that is unique, instructive, respectable and honorable? ... One that is admired/respected by others?"

Does a sub-culture (though I prefer not to use the prefix "sub" because it connotes inferiority) come into existence only when members of the dominate culture acknowledges it as a "unique," "instructive," "respectable" and "honorable" entity? Your question implies that you will not acknowledge a culture (whether it belongs to you or not) unless it solicits admiration from the dominate culture. I think you might agree that its important for any group to judge the value of its culture on its own terms. And to answer your question, I think its possible to speak of a "black culture." Were you not found quoting Maulana Kareng's delineation of African culture in another thread.

"We must always recognize and respect the fact that our culture comes with its own special way of being human in the world and that this particular African way of being human in the world provides a pathway to the universal. For it represents African peoples' way of engaging the fundamental concerns of humankind. Furthermore, our culture has evolved in the longest of histories and thus has amassed a rich and varied array of ancient and modern knowledge, understanding, and wisdom concerning the world. Ours is a history of struggle, creativity, achievement, and constant concern for the right, the just, and the good."- Maulana Karenga

Do you think our Afrocentricity is not strong enough to have sustained itself in America since Africans were the first to inhabit America until finally evolving into what we now call "American Natives." Do you think Africans in America, even after colonization, have not retained their "Africanness" throughout generations? Examine the spirituality of blacks that have transcended and tranformed in to what we now acknowledge as the "Black Church" or "Black Gospel." In addition, if it were not for us, whites would have no concept of "freedom" or "democracy." Africans have had an tremendous impact and influence on American Culture. We have always stood firm on our moral and spiritual foundations since we are the first people to have introduce "religion" to the world and the belief that all things have a life and spirit. This belief is apparent in all indigenous religious even American Native and Asian religions. Examine our inherited love of rhythm, music, and even our intellectual accomplishments that only we can claim as blacks in America. Yes! It is possible to speak of a black culture in America.

[This message was edited by Rowe on July 21, 2003 at 07:26 AM.]

It would be the latter...

Actually I was focusing strictly on how we see ourselves and others.

We often have our own self-critiques that say "we are our own worst enemy" and we also say from time-to-time that we admire others for their values or ability to navigate through this society - Jews for instance... "Never Again!" So my question is based on what WE would define as respectable and what WE would think would be admirable traits...

I think you should know me better than that...
I could give f~ck what White or others think...

BTW, I am Black...
My query is really to ask whether the so-called problems we [Blacks] have are really just symptoms of a larger cultural problem? Don't get it twisted, I am in no wise saying that we have too much of a "ghetto" culture which some would say...

See my question on "INTACT"... that's the crux of what I'm trying to get at...

Plus... read my next post in which I will cut & paste a piece from another thread.

quote:

---

CULTURE:

the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon man's capacity for learning and *transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations*

the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group

the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes a company or corporation

---

Could someone tell me what are the * set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices - aka customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits - that comprise an *integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that can be successfully *transmitted to succeeding generations that are unique to African Americans???

ROWE,
Sub-culture is not the same as culture to me. I really haven't heard that term used with any other ethnic group... but maybe that's me.

Rowe...

My be this popular saying will resonate with you and get you to feel what I'm saying:
"You don't have to like me but you will respect me."

That is said both in the since of being determined to be "who you are" as well as exhibiting undeniable character and achievement that cannot be dismissed.

[Dude...(Rowe) I wish you would make new post instead of adding to one that I have read twice already...]

I know you are black Nmaginate and I know the aim of your topic question. However, simply because someone does not answer your question by addressing each one of the picuyane conceptual terms of "culture" of which you undoubtedly extracted from the dictionary, does not mean that you should jump to the easy conclusion that black culture does not exist. What's important, is to address exactly, what it is that you feel needs improvement in terms of Black personal and social development, since this is from where the source of your frustration issues. I have no arguments against us needing improvements however. I do think blacks have a ways to go before we can rest with confidence in knowing that our fight for genuine liberation is over, yet we should not minimize or discredit our immense influence on the development of American Culture.

Okay I will, but HEY, I am not a dude, I'm a woman.

quote:

---

Do you think our Afrocentricity is not strong enough to have sustained itself in America since Africans were the first to inhabit America until finally evolving into what we now call "American Natives."

---

Rowe this is an intellectual, introspective question not an emotional one.

Do you think that Black single-parent household are the idea? Are they "strong" enough???

Sorry... but I'm trying to advance this past a discussion of "survival" and mere subsistance. I'm talking about a thriving, problem solving, lift the masses type of culture.

If you would have read pieces from the BLACK NATION thread you would know that I already cited that portion of Dr. Karenga's take on our "culture". Yet you seem to take it a bit out-of-context:

• To truly dialog with African culture means, first of all, using it as a resource rather than as a mere reference. This is the meaning of posing questions and seeking answers within African culture concerning central issues of life and the world.
• To simply use African culture as a reference is to name things considered important, but never to use it to answer questions, solve problems, or extract and shape paradigms of excellence and possibility in thought and practice.
• To dialog with African culture, then, is to constantly engage its texts, i.e., its oral, written, and living-practice texts, its paradigms, its worldview and values, its understanding of itself and the world, in an ongoing search for ever better answers to the fundamental questions and challenges of our time.

You and I both know that as a culture in America, Black people do not engage in this directly and on purpose.

I know we are a strong people but there's a difference between strength that is raw/natural vs. strength that is gained by "working-out"...
And you must be very naive to suggest that Black culture is Afrocentric. True, certain elements of our community might be (I'd like to think I'm mentally progressing in that direction) but as a whole we are an AMERICANIZED people... though I know and sincerely hope that we would be the AFRICAN people we are.

And oh, I wanted to tell you that I like the arguments that you made against Jiang over Affirmitive Actions. When Jiang made an argument against Affirmitive Action by stating "Two Wrongs Don't Make A Right." Then you ran him out of the thread by making concise arguments. You won that argument, hands down. That was good.

Yes, we certainly have been enculturated; that is, how you say, "Americanized." No doubt about that. You are right. Yet, whites have also been "Africanized" just by our presence here in America and our global influence on the world is no secrect either.

Sorry... ROWE (my sister)

My question is intentionally provocative.
Again, noticed you called it a sub-culture...
If I was to get emotional I would say, "Why the hell we got to be SUB anything..."

We can talk about what "survived" our Holocaust but, again, what are those enduring values that we are actively perpetuating and instilling into our future generations...

Why would Dr. Karenga and others have to speak so much about "reclaiming" our African culture if what we got and/or came out of the enslavement ordeal was enough??? Why would the concept of AFROCENTRICITY even have to be created, formulated, and developed if ALL IS WELL...

I'm trying to ask if that lack of a unique, specific and more African-centered and African-AMerican tailored culture in terms of serious consideration/answers to all the questions I raised is in fact needed and the root common cause for the varied "problems" we have.

Those things that define culture does not have to be believed or practiced by every one in what ever group of people it is that believe and practice said things. There is no monolithic belief or practice in the Black community that can be found. The same is true for all people. So Nmaginate if you are looking for something that we all believe, you will never find it. Black culture in America consists of many things from, talk, walk, dress, music, dance and religions as it do with other people. We have regional culture as well, Black folk in Chicago love house music, it is part of growing up in Chicago and part of the culture there, In D.C. Black folk love go-go music and if you grow up there more than likely you will like it to. In the south Black folk love to Bounce and most the music coming from the south makes Black folk want to bounce.

The Black Church is part of our cultural experience in America; the mosque attended by Muslims is part of the Black experience. The yelling and jumping up in down in Church is part of the Black experience and is part of our culture.

There are many things that make our culture what it is; our culture also is one of rebellion, dislike and distrust for the police. Our culture is one of adapt and overcome. The difference between Black folk in America and other men and women in America is that they brought there culture with them, and most of what is our culture in America was made in America and has been spread from here to the rest of the world. Sister Rowe makes a point also when she states our culture is one of making the laws of this land actually mean something. We made their ideas a reality; they never understood freedom until we had to fight for ours and the fight continues to this day. When you look for culture as defined in your post do not look for it to be seen or practiced by all Black folk because no one group of people believe the same and agree on everything. There are things that are part of Black culture that we all can relate to and then there are those things that are part of Black culture that only those in a particular area can relate to and understand.

-------------------------
When our most educated, and best prepared turn their back on our community, stagnation sets in and the men and women who are not the most educated and not the most prepared become the example for those coming behind them. It is up to those of us who are not rich and well off but are educated and prepared to educate our youth and prepare them for what they will face when entering the world.



More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem

Because...

Nmaginate. Our "culture" has already existed, reached fruition and have always been with us. Dr. Edward Bruce Bynum, author of the African Unconscious, says that when Homo erectus arose in East Africa 1.7 million years ago and left Africa in waves of migrations to spread across the globe, along with them went there ancestral memories, experiences, traditions, their cultures. Some argue that "Ebonics" (a supposed 'language' instituted by blacks) is a repudiation of the english language and culture; a rebelliousness against European cultural domination. All of the work and "research" that is conducted by black scholars is merely an attempt to tap into their African center. I do agree that we all (Africans, American Natives, South and North Americans, and the youngest group of them all, Europeans)need to work harder at tapping into this African spiritual center that we have inherited from the first homo sapien to have arose in Africa, who was by the way an African woman.

Key References:
1.African Unconscious by Edward Bruce Bynum

2.African Religions and Philosophy by John S. Mbiti

3. Understanding An Afrocentric World-View: Introduction to an Optimal Psychology by Linda James Myers

I tend to agree with Rowe in regards to the Sub-Culture phenomenon. I really see African Americans as being unique in DEGREE and not KIND here in America, as a general rule. I think that it must be noted that culture is TRANSMITTED via socialization via emulation and given that African Americans were stripped of most outwardly visible manifestations of traditional African normative behavior, we have obviously been emulating white Americans.

I can guarantee you that if African Americans were to leave in mass to set up a new nation somewhere else, it would be just like the cultural/political/economic/religious/judicial/legislative/language reality that is America. That is because we have been socialized by the Euro-Americans for some 300 years, which is scary.

Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
`6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`)
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-'
_..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
(((' (((-((('' ((((
Noah The African in America

I see why we have difficulty to having discussions...

Why is there a need to state the obvious?
I know about regional differences... Christian, Muslim, etc. When did I ever say Black Culture was suppose to be a 100% thing held in common with ALL Black people? That should go without saying. So I guess to answer you, I am not looking for something that "we all believe"... per se.

There is or has to be a common thread on some level because of our common experience. If I was arguing against AA or Reparations and making the argument that ALL Blacks don't deserve it, I don't think I would be getting the "we are not monolithic" spiel...
*******************************
BTW, I was just going to state exactly what you did about "they never understood freedom until we [showed them]..." That's what I see as the major contribution to American society. When it comes to music, etc. I consider those as expressions/manifestations and not necessarily the core of what culture is...

Culture in that sense, to me, is that thing - tangible or not, that gives you that song-to-sing, gives that joy that make you dance in the club and in the Church-house...

quote:

---

I tend to agree with Rowe in regards to the Sub-Culture phenomenon. I really see African Americans as being unique in DEGREE and not KIND here in America, as a general rule. I think that it must be noted that culture is TRANSMITTED via socialization via emulation and given that African Americans were stripped of most outwardly visible manifestations of traditional African normative behavior, we have obviously been emulating white Americans.

I can guarantee you that if African Americans were to leave in mass to set up a new nation somewhere else, it would be just like the cultural/political/economic/religious/judicial/legislative/language reality that is America. That is because we have been socialized by the Euro-Americans for some 300 years, which is scary.

---

Actually NOAH, that would be more closely related to my point. Both ROWE & FAHEEM are arguing in the positive by saying the we do have a unique culture and (for a lack a better term) they are celebrating what how our "African" culture has survived and influenced America.

I don't think they would think that there is anything "scary" about it from what they have written so far. ROWE is trying to say more or less that we have "good" culture "intact"... (Not that I'm saying ours is bad now... JUST NOT OPTIMUM) I don't think a Black culture that would reproduce America (as is) if left alone would fit that description of a "good" culture in Afrocentric terms.

I think what Rowe postulated in regards to inherited cultural characteristics is also valid and falls in line with what I have been postulating in regards to biological directives that shape our behavior subconsciously. There is the conscious mind and the subconscious mind. The subconscious mind is like "Auto Pilot". It controls the body without conscious thought via an instruction set inherited from the past (INSTINCTS), plus all data entered and stored from birth via sensory receptors of sight, sound, smell, touch and taste. The subconscious minds processes information of sensory stimuli 100 times faster than conscious thinking. That is why when a projectile is coming at you and your sensory receptor of sight catches it; your subconscious alerts the muscles to respond in a "Ducking" or "Escaping" out of the path of the projectile response. If you take the time to consciously think " a rock is coming at my head, what should I ......BAMMMMMM" you done got knocked out.

Thus, African Americans do have a subconscious African culture formed through thousands of years of evolution a genetic "Africans". However, being in America has meant that our subconscious traits have had to respond to a different set of external stimuli from the African in Africa, which has manifested in conscious culture or reality shaped from reactions to Euro-Americans.

Truth is always fraught with impediments. Truth agreed with is a blessed duet. Truth confronting beloved vice will sever relationships, perpetrate flight, and uncover murderous rage. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
`6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`)
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-'
_..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
(((' (((-((('' ((((
Noah The African in America

ROWE...

I would hope you would stop acting like you need to educate me. I am aware of our history... (I think I told you that before)

I think you have used/cited the exact word I want to use to characterize how I would typify the remnants of our "African" culture that remains - UNCONSCIOUS. Perhaps, instinctive would fit as well.

Nevertheless, I'm talking about conscious, deliberate, focused, calculated measures to get us where we want to go and make us the people we want to be. There can be hardly room make a question about the "Crisis Of Black Leadership" if we have a THRIVING culture...

I'm not saying Black Culture and some African expressions doesn't exist (again my topic-question was purposefully provocative...) I'm saying where are those things - readily available, pervasive, and assessible - that give us a guide...

Let's be honest...

quote:

---

However, being in America has meant that our subconscious traits have had to respond to a different set of external stimuli from the African in Africa, which has manifested in conscious culture or reality shaped from reactions to Euro-Americans.

---

AGAIN...

• ...can we say that we have a culture that is "intact"?
  
  
• Essentially, do African-Americans have a culture that is unique, instructive, respectable and honorable? ... One that is admired/respected by others???
  
  
• What are our values?
  
  
  
• What is our collective vision for the future?

We can talk a lot about our forebears but what about our generation? What are we doing to "grow" our culture?

[This message was edited by Nmaginate on July 21, 2003 at 09:13 AM.]

Good topic. I'll comment on the 'root' of what some say is 'our' culture:

Yes, Its called the 'American Culture'. We are not separate from the culture we live our daily lives amongst, we are simply one contributor of many. Hence the term 'African-AMERICAN'. No black folks anywhere else on the planet can point to us and say 'Hey, I'm just like that', cause we are a uniquely American people. Now I know this gonna anger the 'african cultural nazis' out there, but come now, to claim we are african culturally is hopeful wishful thinking at best. All one need do is look at actual continental africans and their multitudes of cultures and try to find OURS amongst them. You won't. There's noone in Africa really reflecting what and who we are culturally, so to think we are something 'african' is not born out in reality.

So as with the majority of other cultures in the US, we may share a blood lineage with distant peoples far away, but most the simularities stop there. Reflect on how many african americans are fluent in any one of the multitude of genuine AFRICAN languages, and you'll have to admit we either aren't african culturally, or must not have much to say to our brothers across the sea. I think its the former, hardly any of us master even a single african language, let alone live our lives within an 'african culture' constructs, so please, enough with this african-centrism madness. We're american, no matter what one claims they'd have rather been.

Reality is reality. God gave you that brain.

[This message was edited by sergeant on July 21, 2003 at 09:29 AM.]

[This message was edited by sergeant on July 21, 2003 at 09:31 AM.]