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Founder |
I just found this thread and I really appreciate the sincerity and perspectives here.  Let me just say that I am much much more committed to "Intelligent. Black. Community" than I am to "free speech". That said - because I have to put food on the table (and I have yet to figure out how to monetize AA.org to buy me a box of crackers and a coke, much less allow me the freedom to really manage this daily/hourly like it probably requires) it is really only pragmatic for me to try to push "personal responsibility" as much as I can. Honestly, I have tried to engage members to help to moderate and nurture various forums etc. here in the past, and . . . well . . . let's just say that everyone is busy and has lots on their plates just like I do. I completely understand that. If I could get the core of our membership - the folks who have been around here for awhile and who really appreciate what we're trying to do here - to really commit to taking ownership in our community - then I'd feel like I had the ability to be much less forgiving with some of the knuckleheads who find their way here. For example, characters like Ricland, have NOTHING to contribute to what AA.org is about BUT they can be very entertaining (yes, in a perverse sort of way) and can stimulate quite a bit of interaction/posting etc. When there are lulls here, sometimes I feel like a clown (literally it seems in this case!) is "good for business".  Anyway - I am VERY open to feedback, counsel, and direction from folks here on this matter. In fact, this is very very important to me! I hope this thread continues on in its productive path! THANKS!   |
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The Watcher |
Thanks for popping your head in! We understand that while this is your baby, you have real world obligations too.
Ricland made for good net drama, but unfortunately proved Nmaginate's point about civility. Even though Ricland came here with some controversial ideas, he could have been schooled respectfully. I won't even comment on the last four pages of the Oprah thread! When I used to ask people to "cool it", as K put it, people told me to mind my business & stop playing "hall monitor". Positive peer pressure obviously isn't working. Self-policing isn't working right now either: that's why you brought the issue up again after 15 months. I'd have no problem keeping a forum or two active, but I'd need to be able to clean it up and discourage the "Fight Club" mentality when it occurs. Some of the other boards I frequent use temporary bans for unruly members. The poster is notified of their ban, the length, and reason for the ban. It may start with 1 week and work it's way to a permanent removal after 4-5 offenses. ------------------------------ R.I.F. (Reading IS Fundamental)... "There are five dangerous faults which may affect a general: (1) Recklessness, which leads to destruction; (2) cowardice, which leads to capture; (3) a hasty temper, which can be provoked by insults; (4) a delicacy of honor which is sensitive to shame; (5) over-solicitude for his men, which exposes him to worry and trouble." -Sun Tzu |
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Phoenix Rising |
This is what I'm talking about... you know what? really.... just forget it... you're unbelievable.. Next time someone comes and says Black women loved getting raped... uh... gosh... I guess those of us who are offended will just realize its the internet... that he just has some offensive opinions and respectfully engage him and ask him to justify his opinions or ignore it all together right? well like I said... please make sure that you eliminate many black women whose offense will NOT be expressed "civilly" when faced with an overwhelmingly degrading issue... make sure you get black women who are able to place rape in their proper perspective... and not go over board and *gasp* are sarcastic and disrespectful to someone who is degrading their entire gender and calling us whores.... ummm... yeah... the onus is on us to be respectful to those who degrade us...  unless of course you're a dude who you like, isn't that right D? Then that dude has all the leeway he likes to be disrespectful...
That's because you "monitored" unjustly... the positions you take are often either biased and you are not self reflective in this issue... you can't just monitor only certain people's behavior and ignore the very same behavior you claim to be against in yourself and others that you prefer.... your monitoring was only irritating because it was heavily biased.... otherwise you forget it was my idea (not the first to say this... but just saying that I too carried the idea) to have monitors in the first place... the idea was for judgment to be fair... for that to happen you actually have to understand ALL viewpoints.... and not be hypocritical when they are presented... and frankly that is exactly what happens.... there are a few posters here who decry the characteristics they themselves posess, its just more accepted because the position they take is more palatable... or because they didn't say it with sarcasm.... which means the only real problem is that someone came back and defended their position with sarcasm.... and the sarcasm becomes the focus... and not the initial disrespect... and sarcasm that started it.... but whaeva... like many have stated here... the site is addictive... when I first got here... it wasn't like this.... Frenchy and I spoke of this once... when she and I first met this place was real cool... Nmag and all.... by the time I came back this place was already a hotbed of intense gender debate... it deteriorated thereafter... with many males completely unable to accept their role in instigating disrespect of certain women... or completely allowing disrespect to happen and justifying because frankly they just didn't like the poster....
Well it depends on the "monitor" .... I have seen on another site... something similar .... when this guy became moderator... he got rid of undesireables... and everyone applauded and breathed a sigh of relief... but eventually his own biases worked against others who were lumped in his mind with the "undesireables" and no one said anything... until people gradually left... and instead of attracting diverse opinion ... like I'm sure everyone in theory would like... in reality the board became boring and monotonous with people just stroking each other's ego... not really being challenged... and the only people willing to challenge ideas were those with an obvious agenda... which kept the core group of posters satisfied that they were "right"... but they were too arrogant to realize that they weren't.... the board still exists.... and as much hoopla as was created over posts with no facts to back them.... sarcasm... perceived personal attacks... overt personal attacks... etc.. etc.. (and NOPE it wasn't me... I was a lurker who didn't post much at all my post count was like 10).... what all can see is that these same characteristics existed in everybody including the accusers they just didn't want to admit it... anywhoo... the board carried as much as 20,000 members at one time... that's when I found it... and was pretty active... and highly charged.. all sorts of dialogue good and bad.. but engaging nonetheless... doctors... professors... educated... noneducated... battling ideas... with personality defects... and perceived personality defects getting in the way... the "Ricland's" were handled by the "garbage collectors" members whose self appointed job it was to engage these idiots until they ran them off the board... most of these episodes were entertaining for the rest of the board... and surprisingly informative because through it all different points would be brought out... at any rate... ironically the board disintegrated over gender and religion.... the women got fed up with the men who could not dialogue any longer without calling women *b*'s and whatnot.. and the board slowly became increasingly male dominated.... and the only females that remained did not represent the female perspective.... and sided with the men... or simply were too scared to voice their opinion... and the religious debates became ugly because of two reasons... debates over whose "God" was the true one got ridiculous... and debates over whether "God" existed could not be discussed without those who were atheist running away those who were not... primarily because those who were not could not back up their beliefs with logic or philosophical reason... ummm.... this was bad... real bad... the board at one time I was told had double the membership I witness so I came in on the decline... and I was poked and prodded to speak.... but I would not because the men were overly aggressive and protected each other's positions and I wasn't about to be one of only like three female members on the board to take an opposing one... ummm... but then it got worse.. because it was "finally" decided to become moderated... well the dude just moderated away everyone who was left under the auspices of keeping civil dialogue... but what he missed was that he couldn't really distinguish between his own proclivities and tolerances for people's idiosyncracies and what actually constituted uncivil behavior... and he had everyone's backing so he wasn't very reflective.. anyway the last time I visited there were a whole bunch of threads about how to attract women... I was encouraged to respond... and I told the truth... that women did not want to come rest their minds around a bunch of brutish men trying to one up one another on gender issues... a monitor would be needed just so expression could be given without threats or violent responses.... well all that did was generate justifications for why it was okay for men to do so... cause they are men.... and how women are nitpicky... and overly sensitive and dramatic and only want to talk about "love" stuff.... so I said.... mmmmk.... well apparently your viewpoint is not working... and good luck with finding more women to speak other than those looking for sex.... a date... or who think like you .... to which I was sent PM's saying that I shouldn't have said anything (ummm hello I was asked to speak! they just didn't like what I had to say!) others that said that it was refreshing to hear a different "spirit".... (Nice, but then you'd have to actually reflect on why other "spirits" don't come post).... and yet others who said if I could gather some of my sisters to come speak at the political sections they would guarantee to stay out of the conversations unless we felt we were degraded in some way.... but receiving special priviliges like that would just piss off everyone and who wants to dialogue under that kind of pressure...all nice but by then I was exhausted in trying to explain myself in PM's and just didn't feel like it was worth it.... Most of the women that left that board are at an all female board (nope not nappturality, although there are a lot of familiar faces there too!  ) and its ironic... the dialogues become heated... but if a man comes on the board he is descended upon and either raised to god status or spit upon... no in between... and now they are trying to attrack more men!... so I said... reduce your conversations about trying to get one!.... reduce your attacks when he speaks his opinion or curses about the position and only attack when he curses you personally... then I received PM's... saying that I was removed from the situation because I was married... that I couldn't really speak for single sisters... (they don't know I'm no longer married to my ex and have no idea about who is my life now)....and that its easier for me... whaeva... people make excuses all the time for stuff... they don't really want to do and place the blame on others...this is the internet.... the posters that frequent boards outside of the ones that are addicted (hullo-I would be exhibit A!- smile) are ones that like to read and write... sounds simplistic... but members like this who have a breadth of knowledge, experience and opinion are sort of rare.... and although this is the internet... it is populated with humans... so whatever principles work in a real community can be applied here... (maybe not all but much can)
Yes... I think this is a great idea... as long as the offenses are used unilaterally and not just towards those whose positions you don't like... which can be a problem here... I'm just more vocal about it... good luck... ~blessings~ Peace, Khalliqa "The Goddess emerges as the evanescence of the inferior dissipates.... " |
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Phoenix Rising |
Ummm.... one more thing.. I will just say that when I first came to this board... it was purely for social reasons.... to sort of relax... then I went through some major changes in my real life and the board became a way to escape... and to vent through poetry... from time to time...
There is an NOI board I frequent that is a relief because no one has to justify why a white person's point of view on subjects affecting our community are needed... and there is no need for moderators.. because women , dramatic/sarcastic or whaeva or not are simply respected off principle... so I am free to be black and a woman without someone telling me my emotions are wrong but... there is not a cross section of subjects so I don't frequent it as much... there is a predominately white philosophy board I frequent and am allowed to be expressive and inquisitive about the mundane and ridiculous to the most arcane viewpoints and am actually taken seriously! I learn a lot from that board... because all viewpoints the traditional and non traditional are allowed to flourish and no subject is too weird to tackle... my person is not called into question.... if my point of view is retarded I'm called on it... and if not I am supported... I get both about half time equally... but obviously the board doesn't speak for me as a black woman.... but I am free to be more philosophically oriented and address wild issues and questions I've had in my head for awhile without feeling ostracized or non engaged.... I frequent several all women's boards... and its nice to not be so heavily scrutinized for being a woman... and a black woman... but damn I get tired of every time a man comes on girlfriends lose their cool completely! and I frequent "black" boards like this from time to time... where I feel free to tackle the hurt and pain in our communities.. express myself about it etc... but I tire of gender wars... the fight to keep white people comfortable... or the fight to keep them off the board... religious debates and cliques that don't want to admit their cliques... and elitism that exists among the bougie... and those among the hip hop crowd which can be EXTREMELY elitist... I mean daggonit... can I enjoy music without talking about the strip club, making it rain and justifying all of this cuz Rakim put out a really good hook back in the day????? whaeva.. I think this board will find its niche... but the broad title AfricanAmerican "intelligent" community will have to be more defined.... There is a way to attract more politically oriented moderates to the board... I used to belong to some African American think tanks... but a few simply died... because the caliber of posters it attracted were... well busy.. doing stuff in the community... their jobs... etc.. and the board was hard to maintain... I'll see what I can conjure up.... I think this is what is meant by "intelligent" here... because some of the more core board members really can't handle too much difference.... but again this will have to be defined with honesty... not just in theory.. so that if one expresses themselves sarcastically they won't be out of line.... or at least posters will know to address trolls with respect and educate them properly... (  was that sarcastic??? ) *sorry.. I think I'm just tired of the "net" altogether...* carry on... Peace, Khalliqa "The Goddess emerges as the evanescence of the inferior dissipates.... " |
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The Watcher |
You posted a lot, so pardon me in advance if I don't comment on it all in this post. Ricland is a troll, plain & simple. A troll comes to incite & provoke - everyone that addressed him rewarded him. kresge handled it well - he present his facts to counter Ricland and asked him to produce his. Until he produced them, he should have been ignored. No attention, no motivation for the troll to stay. Additionally, just like other trolls hurtful words have been removed from this board, so could his.
Note: Ricland's offensive threads were moved to the Big House which is a no-hold barred area. All moderation is biased. Even with a committee of moderators (of different sensibilities), some rules will be established that a member of the community will consider unfair. To cut to the chase, what rules would you implement if you moderated here? ------------------------------ R.I.F. (Reading IS Fundamental)... "There are five dangerous faults which may affect a general: (1) Recklessness, which leads to destruction; (2) cowardice, which leads to capture; (3) a hasty temper, which can be provoked by insults; (4) a delicacy of honor which is sensitive to shame; (5) over-solicitude for his men, which exposes him to worry and trouble." -Sun Tzu |
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The Watcher |
One more thing from me too...
There is also a report button & an ignore button. If there are posters on this board that always rub you the wrong way and you (universal you) cannot resist rebutting them respectfully or cannot read their words without becoming agitated, report the offending posts before you place the offending poster on ignore. I'm still interested in hearing your solution for the problem. ------------------------------ R.I.F. (Reading IS Fundamental)... "There are five dangerous faults which may affect a general: (1) Recklessness, which leads to destruction; (2) cowardice, which leads to capture; (3) a hasty temper, which can be provoked by insults; (4) a delicacy of honor which is sensitive to shame; (5) over-solicitude for his men, which exposes him to worry and trouble." -Sun Tzu |
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Vanguard |
Why? What has that ever accomplished? Ubuntu - I am what I am, because of who we all are. "Peace is not merely the absence of tension, it is the presence of justice." - MLK www.PersonalSafetyInstitute.org |
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The Watcher |
It got that call out thread moved to the appropriate location. Other threads have been moved as well. Additionally, ignore means you never see anything that person posts. If you can't see it, it should be easier not to respond to it, right?
BTW, I'm not hostile BV. I just wasted some time trying to make a point that was going to be missed no matter how I expressed it... ------------------------------ R.I.F. (Reading IS Fundamental)... "There are five dangerous faults which may affect a general: (1) Recklessness, which leads to destruction; (2) cowardice, which leads to capture; (3) a hasty temper, which can be provoked by insults; (4) a delicacy of honor which is sensitive to shame; (5) over-solicitude for his men, which exposes him to worry and trouble." -Sun Tzu |
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Vanguard |
Yes, but... so what? Since there's no actual moderation going on... what difference does it make if a thread is moved?
Yes and no. I don't need to use that function... if I want to ignore someone I just do. I also reserve the right to change my mind at any time. 
While reading the other thread... I was struck by the whole "Pot.Kettle.Black" thingy. Every time the board has one of these blow-ups that's what I see. I've shamelessly participated before... and I may do it again when the mood strikes me. I'm biased and I don't see the point in pretending not to be. Perhaps we should all just admit that we are biased. Then we can stop having unreasonable expectations of each other. I mean... did you read Virtue's last post in this thread? All those attributes she is using to describe your behavior... when they actually describe her behavior ten fold. I was shaking my head in disbelief... until I reminded myself that bias is natural, and people are who they are. It's truly amazing how one sided the condemnation can be. If AA.org is going to be an on-line grappling pit then so be it. Let the chips (and casualties) fall where they may. In the end... we've all got our own lives to live... yes? Ubuntu - I am what I am, because of who we all are. "Peace is not merely the absence of tension, it is the presence of justice." - MLK www.PersonalSafetyInstitute.org |
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The Watcher |
These events are cyclical, so I guess we'll see where our community is once the tide abates...
How would you resolve the respect & moderation quandry? ------------------------------ R.I.F. (Reading IS Fundamental)... "There are five dangerous faults which may affect a general: (1) Recklessness, which leads to destruction; (2) cowardice, which leads to capture; (3) a hasty temper, which can be provoked by insults; (4) a delicacy of honor which is sensitive to shame; (5) over-solicitude for his men, which exposes him to worry and trouble." -Sun Tzu |
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Tasmanian Angel |
Okay ... I gotta make this quick, but ...
For one, I think it's kind of impractical to believe that most people (not including Ddub, who seems to be very good at it) are not/will not respond to posts, even if they find them inflammatory. This is a message board. Reading and responding is what you come here for. It's the nature of the beast. Most people don't come here just to read, so to expect a majority of people to totally ignore posts is somewhat unrealistic. Secondly, the ignore feature does not enable a person to not have to read the words of others. Though I wish it did. Too many times the problem I have is that in reading the post of someone I respect on the board, they have quoted the words of a lunatic that I would prefer to avoid!!  Or the looney's words are intermingled into the post of the person of interest. And this creates a problem.You have an ability that gives you a strong quality of being able to sit quietly and take a lot of crap without responding to it. I think that's excellent for you, but it's not something that dominates most people as a whole. BLACK by NATURE, PROUD by CHOICE. Before there was ANY history, there was BLACK history. |
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The Watcher |
I slipped today ER, and corrected the mistake shortly thereafter. With all this clique talk lately, I'm just trying to figure out what clique I'm in - I don't recall making a blood oath or signing any documents...
------------------------------ R.I.F. (Reading IS Fundamental)... "There are five dangerous faults which may affect a general: (1) Recklessness, which leads to destruction; (2) cowardice, which leads to capture; (3) a hasty temper, which can be provoked by insults; (4) a delicacy of honor which is sensitive to shame; (5) over-solicitude for his men, which exposes him to worry and trouble." -Sun Tzu |
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Vanguard |
I don't think there is a resolution for it. This board doesn't have posting guidlines... and even if it did there is no one to monitor/moderate it. Therefore... people are going to act a fool which inspires others to do the same. There's no way around it as things stand now... which I think is what Ebony was trying to say. Knowing this however... it does bother me that some people inspire a knee-jerk reaction from MBM while others do not. HonestBrother was banned... but Shango67 was not  . Am I biased? Of course I am. But objectively what that means is that there actually are criteria for behavior on this board. MBM has said before that anything not consistent with "Intelligent.Black.Community" is not welcome here. Apparently he knows exactly what that means. I on the other hand do not... and I don't think anyone else does either.Ubuntu - I am what I am, because of who we all are. "Peace is not merely the absence of tension, it is the presence of justice." - MLK www.PersonalSafetyInstitute.org |
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Founder |
There are no double standards; there is only one set of criteria. What you must please realize is that I see only a small minority of the posts that are published here. Unless someone brings something to my attention, something or someone offensive could go for weeks without me seeing it - or perhaps even permanently. For example, the only reason why I saw Ricland was because he posted about a topic that I care about. If not - I can almost guarantee you that I wouldn't be aware of him unless someone PM'd me about it. When something comes to my attention that I find egregious, I do something about it. And btw - in the past I have tried to enlist members as moderators. It hasn't worked because the original commitment fell by the wayside to other obligations etc. In general - my hands off style has been more a function of practical logistics. I've tried to have people police themselves because I'm out trying to put food on the table. BV - any specific thoughts or recommendations? Do you think hard and fast rules like . . . no swearing, no personal attacks etc. are what we need? If so - what should the penalties against that be? One strike and you;re out? Three strikes? How can we get the more thoughtful members here to participate a little bit more in keeping this place like we ALL want it? To be clear - I am much more committed to "Intelligent. Black. Community." than I am to "free speech". I just could use a hand from time to time in helping to guide our community! |
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Vanguard |
And that is... what?
Granted and understood.
Yes... but this is when something comes to your attention that you find egregious. And again the criteria for that is... what?
The most important thing about managing any group of people is consistency. The specific criteria for behavior don't matter as long as they are known by all and consistently applied. Every member of this board should know two things... A) Exactly what behavior is expected of them. B) Exactly what the consequences will be for non-compliance. So... If there is a set criteria then post it somewhere that it can be referenced and quoted by you and others. Whatever you decide the consequences of non-compliance are should be posted as well. And it doesn't have to be set in stone. You can take suggestions from the community and you can evolve it as the community evolves.
It's likely that far more people will bring posts to your attention if they know the criteria by which it should be judged... other than, "This poster is pissing me off." For example... if someone uses the "report this post" button, it asks for the reason to report it. The reporting party should be able to site what rule the post is breaking in that box. BTW - There are many regular posters that you may be able to get to help you moderate again. However, for that to work you must give them a system to use. The moderators need guidelines too. They will still be using their judgment, but within in certain parameters. Even if all they're doing is sifting through reported posts from specific forums divided between them. MBM... no one expects you to monitor every posting every minute of every day. That's unreasonable. But you DO need a system. A set system will do a certain amount of the work for you in those areas you rarely go or when you are not present on the board at all. Ubuntu - I am what I am, because of who we all are. "Peace is not merely the absence of tension, it is the presence of justice." - MLK www.PersonalSafetyInstitute.org |
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Founder |
Good feedback. I agree. Of course everything is open to interpretation, but - loosely - this is what we should be striving toward: Obviously - the difficulty is in evaluating this against the host of topics and posts that could fit within any of the forums here. I think we would want fairly wide latitude to include a broad range of topics and opinions. Beyond that, what offends one person may not be offensive to another - or even most others here. Some of the threads in The Den - while not meant to be - might be offensive to some of our women members. What do we do about that - particularly since it is in "the Den"? Some might be deeply offended by harsh language? Should I put the censor on to ensure that certain words will never be shown here? (For ex. I could make certain words come out as ***** .) Does this make any sense to you? How would you refine or better articulate this? BV? Anyone? Clearly - personal attacks should be a quick and easy factor to target. I think folks can be just about as aggressive as they want attacking an opinion or position, but purely ad hominem attacks have no place here. Now - that said - there are probably times when calling into question one's personal sense of ethics or reasoning or experience is fair game - when attempting to debate something. Just the weak/useless name calling should be readily eliminated here. Again, though, there will always be gray area and questions about the interpretation of something. Thoughts?
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Founder |
BTW - and this is not meant against anyone personally - but, I must say that sometimes it gets quite frustrating when folks get angr |