Courtship is the cultural system of a man and a woman "dating" for the express and stated purpose of discovering if each of them are suitable partners for marriage......

While courtship entails aspects of dating....

it by no means is dating....

dating is a haphazard loose type of relating where the purposes are not always stated.... if at all and most "luck" up and find someone to marry from this process..... and in the process are often hurt and left licking their wounds.... or are left feeling alone as they look for someone to share their life with, if they are looking for marriage... because many who date are not looking for marriage... just current companionship.....

courtship has marriage as its sole focus and is practiced differently around the world...


for those who wish to be married.... are looking for a spouse...

are you familiar with the different types of these arrangements.....

would you be willing to try it....?


Peace,
Virtue

I guess that I've never actually dated without the idea that I was looking for a potential wife.

Unless you consider every time that I might go out for pizza and beer with somebody as a date.

My standards for who I'm willing to eat pizza and drink beer with are pretty low...

quote:

Originally posted by ricardomath:
I guess that I've never actually dated without the idea that I was looking for a potential wife.

In my experience this is rare...

quote:

Unless you consider every time that I might go out for pizza and beer with somebody as a date.

My standards for who I'm willing to eat pizza and drink beer with are pretty low...

Peace,
Virtue

quote:

Originally posted by virtue:
Courtship is the cultural system of a man and a woman "dating" for the express and stated purpose of discovering if each of them are suitable partners for marriage......

While courtship entails aspects of dating....

it by no means is dating....

dating is a haphazard loose type of relating where the purposes are not always stated.... if at all and most "luck" up and find someone to marry from this process..... and in the process are often hurt and left licking their wounds.... or are left feeling alone as they look for someone to share their life with, if they are looking for marriage... because many who date are not looking for marriage... just current companionship.....

courtship has marriage as its sole focus and is practiced differently around the world...


for those who wish to be married.... are looking for a spouse...

are you familiar with the different types of these arrangements.....

would you be willing to try it....?


Peace,
Virtue

This is going to come off weird to most but oh well.

I've wanted to get married since i was interested in girls. Let's just say i had alot of loving influence from my mother and father.

quote:

Originally posted by virtue:
Courtship is the cultural system of a man and a woman "dating" for the express and stated purpose of discovering if each of them are suitable partners for marriage......

The idea of courtship before marriage was appropriate during a time when young people were destined for marriage soon after reaching puberty and/or completing a high school education. But times have changed. People are deferring marriage for longer periods of time. Today, most people don't even consider marriage until they reach their late 30's, and for some, their mid 40's! This is drastically different from the time when folks got married at age 18. Another social change that has contributed to the dying of courtship is rather than depending on the income of a spouse for survival, women are pursuing education and jobs in order to support themselves. Unfortunately however, while the women pursue an education, this places them out of the pool of marriageable partners because they are either in school or working. All of these changes have created a need for "dating," that is, a process by which people come together for an indefinite period of time to satisfy each other's needs for companionship until either person is ready to get married.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rowe,

quote:

Originally posted by LovNThySoul:
This is going to come off weird to most but oh well. I've wanted to get married since i was interested in girls. Let's just say i had alot of loving influence from my mother and father.

Young Adults Crave Direction

Then you may want to share your interest with members who frequent the Issues/Politics side the board. There is a steaming debate going on over there about the crisis of Black men being taken farther and father away from the prospect of marriage and family. Sister Virtue should be credited for starting this topic because there is very little discussion about how the extinction of courtship and other traditional methods of pairing contributes to young people's lack of direction. The truth is, our community has one the highest number of single parents because there is little to nothing being done to introduce young people into adulthood in a systematic and formal way. It is literally left up to young people themselves to figure out how to approach the opposite sex and how to conduct themselves in a serious relationship. They receive very little, if any guidance from the parents who in most cases were once teen parents themselves. And once all the mistakes have been made, the cycle of mistakes just continues to pass from one generation to the next.

To solve this problem, I think our community needs to reintroduce the concept of inducting young people into a Rites of Passage. In every community that calls itself a civilization, you will find some type of rite of passage for young people. Some wealthy families are known to have what is called a "Coming Out Party" for their children. During this very special time, young adults are introduced to the responsibilities of adulthood and are honored for their accomplishments. The reason why so many Black and Hispanic teens are joining gangs today is because they are literally starving for this type of acknowledgement. They desparately desire (and need) a special occasion that will mark and celebrate their passing into adulthood. If our community had activities like these for children, we would not see as near as much violence, teen pregnancy, and premature death as we do in our communities today. Children need direction, care, and acknowledgment.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rowe,

Great post, virrtue!

Unfortunately, I'm not one of those people in the market for a husband! So, I guess this post isn't really for me!

But, I definitely think courtship should be a prerequisite of marriage. And I'd want to do more than just try it ... I might insist on it!

But, just as a question ... would you consider this the time if "engagement" or are you thinking of something even prior to that?

I think courship is an excellent idea but I think that it would have to be taught. I am 22 years old and I have not dated much because my mother didnt allow it. From what i have experienced, black men my age have no idea how to even talk to women properly. Young brothers and sisters are not interested in courtship right now. I am finishing up my undergrad and going on to grad shool in the fall. Dating is not as time consuming and there are no obligations. I wind up dating older men just to get proper respect. I know that I am not interested in marrying them and they arent interested in marrying me because of the age gap so we enjoy each other's company. i come from a family where your business is everyone elses. I think that courtship should come before the engagement.

When I first heard of courtship, I thought it was a wonderful idea. But the more I think over it, the more it seems like it would put an enormous amount of pressure on a budding relationship and push people to make brash decisions ("The minute I get an inkling you are not marriage material, you're GONE!"). I would be put off if someone approached me with "I think I may want to marry you. Let's interact some more and see." What in blazing hell do you even know about me?? And I think both people would probably be more concerned with looking like a good wife/husband, than casually getting to know another individual. I know I would.

Does traditional courtship allow sex? Is it always tied to religion?

quote:

Originally posted by Rowe:

quote:

Originally posted by LovNThySoul:
This is going to come off weird to most but oh well. I've wanted to get married since i was interested in girls. Let's just say i had alot of loving influence from my mother and father.

Young Adults Crave Direction

Then you may want to share your interest with members who frequent the Issues/Politics side the board. There is a steaming debate going on over there about the crisis of Black men being taken farther and father away from the prospect of marriage and family. Sister Virtue should be credited for starting this topic because there is very little discussion about how the extinction of courtship and other traditional methods of pairing contributes to young people's lack of direction. The truth is, our community has one the highest number of single parents because there is little to nothing being done to introduce young people into adulthood in a systematic and formal way. It is literally left up to young people themselves to figure out how to approach the opposite sex and how to conduct themselves in a serious relationship. They receive very little, if any guidance from the parents who in most cases were once teen parents themselves. And once all the mistakes have been made, the cycle of mistakes just continues to pass from one generation to the next.

To solve this problem, I think our community needs to reintroduce the concept of inducting young people into a Rites of Passage. In every community that calls itself a civilization, you will find some type of rite of passage for young people. Some wealthy families are known to have what is called a "Coming Out Party" for their children. During this very special time, young adults are introduced to the responsibilities of adulthood and are honored for their accomplishments. The reason why so many Black and Hispanic teens are joining gangs today is because they are literally starving for this type of acknowledgement. They desparately desire (and need) a special occasion that will mark and celebrate their passing into adulthood. If our community had activities like these for children, we would not see as near as much violence, teen pregnancy, and premature death as we do in our communities today. Children need direction, care, and acknowledgment.

I CONCUR! I was in a Rites of Passage group myself here in the states called Anoka. This IS why our young people are having so much difficulty relating to each other. In many parts of Africa they know there place in the relationship, and in courting, wether we in the states think those roles are right or fair is another story.

I think courting is great! And it doesn't even exist outside of most religious, or strict cultural environments because everybody in America wants to do whatever they feel like. And it doesn't put pressure on the relationship, if the two of you don't work out and you don't make a good match for marriage you SHOULD move on. What are you hanging on to each other for? And without sex you don't have those deep emotional bonds that most women form. Do enough people practice it? NO! Most don't even know it still exists and that people do practice it!

quote:

Originally posted by Amokess:

I CONCUR! I was in a Rites of Passage group myself here in the states called Anoka. This IS why our young people are having so much difficulty relating to each other. In many parts of Africa they know there place in the relationship, and in courting, wether we in the states think those roles are right or fair is another story.

I think courting is great! And it doesn't even exist outside of most religious, or strict cultural environments because everybody in America wants to do whatever they feel like. And it doesn't put pressure on the relationship, if the two of you don't work out and you don't make a good match for marriage you SHOULD move on. What are you hanging on to each other for? And without sex you don't have those deep emotional bonds that most women form. Do enough people practice it? NO! Most don't even know it still exists and that people do practice it!

Hugs Amokess


Peace,
Khalliqa

I have mixed feelings about courtship. I had a friend in undergrad. that was muslim (NOI) and she was in a courtship with her now husband for about six months prior to marrying him. She didn't know him that well and wasn't really ever interested in him, he approached her parents and her about entering a courtship and she did-six months later they were married. I didn't agree with it, to me it was like she was dating him just because he asked her to, not necessarily because she was interested in him and once the courtship began she started to feel pressured into marrying him. I'm not saying that courtship couldn't work, i'm just not sure it was the right thing in this situation.

Ahh, the believes of the Independent black woman, vs the traditional woman. I personally believe courship is great and should be reintroduced into the African commmunity here in America. There is much we can learn men and women from our brothes and sistas on the continent and how they view marraige. This is not limited to tribes who still practice their ancient ways, but the modern African as well. From my experience their relationship on average, are much more loving and even though the women give men a certain status, much is expected of the man. Some women see this as somhow weak and outdated. I blame it on the White Femminist movement that black women latched onto,when in reality the situation the white woman is in this society is totally different than that of the black woman.

quote:

Originally posted by ZAKAR:
Ahh, the believes of the Independent black woman, vs the traditional woman. I personally believe courship is great and should be reintroduced into the African commmunity here in America. There is much we can learn men and women from our brothes and sistas on the continent and how they view marraige. This is not limited to tribes who still practice their ancient ways, but the modern African as well. From my experience their relationship on average, are much more loving and even though the women give men a certain status, much is expected of the man. Some women see this as somhow weak and outdated. I blame it on the White Femminist movement that black women latched onto,when in reality the situation the white woman is in this society is totally different than that of the black woman.

You believe in courtship?????




Peace,
Khalliqa

quote:

Originally posted by Frenchy:
When I first heard of courtship, I thought it was a wonderful idea. But the more I think over it, the more it seems like it would put an enormous amount of pressure on a budding relationship and push people to make brash decisions ("The minute I get an inkling you are not marriage material, you're GONE!"). I would be put off if someone approached me with "I think I may want to marry you. Let's interact some more and see." What in blazing hell do you even know about me?? And I think both people would probably be more concerned with looking like a good wife/husband, than casually getting to know another individual. I know I would.

Does traditional courtship allow sex? Is it always tied to religion?

That's the impression that I get, too.

Like, you might think you are great for each other in the now but might not be that sure about how compatable you are marriage-wise.

With a courtship mentality, I can see that is great. Why spend time with someone who isn't marriageable? Everything could be great in the moment, but marriage isn't for months. It's a lifetime. And you can see your wavelengths will diverge greatly by then.

With a dating mentality, I can see that that's a hasty decision. You believe, but you don't know. But you possibly would have found out if the lookabout was seen more as a getting to know someone period rather than a pure hunt for a spouse.

Courtship is sooooooooooooooooooooo needed today!

I'd prefer a courtship because interracting with another individual should be a serious thing. I get worried about the haphazard attitude people have with dating, as if they DO NOT have to be concerned with what they do with/to another person's life.

RelationShips used to be focused on building together and working through any incompatibilities. But today, it is too easy to throw your hands up in the air and say, "To hell with this..." It's like people have gotten lazy at "trying."

I'd definitely prefer courtship...I want to KNOW what someone's intention are towards building a life with me versus guessing at what appears to be their playing.

In my mind the whole POINT of courtship is to see if the person you've decided to be exclusive with IS marriage material. I don't think there is anything wrong with courting, finding out the person is NOT the right person for you and moving on. I personally think courtship is MUCH needed in the Black community here in America simply if for nothing else to discourage men and women from sleeping around while "dating." Dating means you could be seeing several women (or men) and possibly sleeping with these women because you're not serious about settling down. All that panty and drawl dropping is part of the reason HIV and AIDS is so rampant in our communities. Maybe courting could eliminate some of that risk.

I personally would LOVE for a man to court me... see only me... take the time to really consider me and see if I'm someone he would like to spend his life with... and of course I'd be doing the same as far as he was concerned, it wouldn't be just a one way thing.

Care to add any 2007 thoughts to this Ms. K?

Interesting.. so then what does "courtship" look like?

Let me throw this into the equation from my own perspective, and that is I think it's different for people who are divorcees.

After I divorced, life for me took a turn. I was very much re-discovering myself and getting my own house in order. School, career, aging parent, child.. all of those things took priority over trying to "court" a woman.

Not that I didn't want female companionship or that I didn't have game, but one of the things that was paramount (based on my experiences) is that I wanted to maintain HEALTHY relationships with my sisters (platonic especially..and potentially "romantically).

So amid all of what else I had going on, I got on the personals. BlackPeopleMeet, Match.com, BlackChristianPeopleMeet, Yahoo..etc and started engaging online with sisters. Mostly in other cities (which worked just fine) and some locally.

But the problem I ran into is that I was in ABSOLUTELY NO HURRY to meet anyone in person. I enjoyed email/chat/phone calls and my personal practice was that I would take at least 2 months of engaging in that manner before I decided to meet anyone. And even then, we would drive separately and leave separately. Don't ask me to come to your house and I ain't asking you to come to mine. (Even "after" I transition from my old room at my mother's house to my condo). I didn't want people in my space like that.

Well there were mixed results from that because some sisters became skeptical, others thought I was married, on the DL, or I wasn't who I said I was or looked like in my photo, and just thought I was whack and stuck up for being so slow to engage.

Hell, I was celibate, happy, and confident in ME, and so though I had women literally throwing the punani at me (turn-off) I just didn't feel like it, so sex was bait I wasn't falling for and though I would be lonely sometimes for hugs and kisses, I got used to doing without.

I realized that fundamentally I had lost a lot of trust for the sisters, and for that reason I wasn't going to take them anywhere or be seen anywhere with them if I wasn't sure they had any sense. (If that makes sense)

So courting to me is a mystery. If I'm not physically attracted to you, if I don't know much about your background, maturity level, spirituality, ambition, temperament..etc, all I can really do is just be "friends" with you until I decide if I want to go there with you.

Perhaps to a fault.. but I ain't trying to "grow" with anyone like that.. if you don't have your act together when I first meet you, then I ain't trying to court you or get too attached with you and engage like that outside of friendship.

I'm in a relationship now (I'll explain that later) but at the time, if courting means that you gotta be in my face or my space routinely so I can decide to get to know you, that wasn't happening.

As whack as it may seem in retrospect, during the time before my present relationship, I had phone/email/chat engagements with about 4-5 women in various places, and to this day, I only met 2 of them in person, and the other one became a good friend who lost her patience, but understood. She eventually married a guy she met at her Church and seems happy.

The way I did it would not be courting, but I think it's better than courting because women are not as restrained nor do they exercise the best judgment in their choice of mate, and I wasn't going to get caught up in some else's desperation because of this so called good "black man shortage".

Courting (and I'm not going to look it up) to me meant.

Introduction (by whatever means, via referral, online..etc)
Planned fellowship
Validation of interest (by man and woman)
Validation of acceptance (by family, friends..etc)
Invitation to long term committment
Engagement
Marriage.

I'm not sure how long it takes between stages, but I say that the longest part for me would be between fellowship and validation of interest.

But I don't know.. I think I may be rambling.

quote:

Originally posted by ddouble:
Care to add any 2007 thoughts to this Ms. K?

Not sure what you would like me to expound upon...

I know that as a woman in an environment where men are taught, encouraged and set up to get together with women for the express purpose of marriage as the end result...

it makes for an entirely different experience than for a woman who is in an environment where she must lend heart, energy and mind to men who may or may not have that as the end result...

I suppose if she is content with not really being concerned about marriage... this will work for her... but I cannot speak for those women....

The women I know want family ... and thus... dating is not considered the best route to this end... we seem to increase our chances of meeting men who want marriage... among well... men who have already submitted to a process that will result in marriage or bust....

so, I still hold that courtship is better than dating....