How has the notion of "blackness" bamboozled African Americans into an unhealthy obsession with materialism, violence, misogyny, crime, institutionalization, self-degredation and infidelity? What are the deterious consequences of this?

How has "blackness" diminished the soveriegnty of African Americans as rational and moral beings? How has white America exploited the concept to subliminate its rage toward and contempt for black America? Who gets to decide when the past is over? YOU BLACK PEOPLE DO.

Until you decide you want to do something about yourselves and your immediate environment--instead of being self-absorbed and looking for someone else to blame for what you should be responsible for--Mainstream America will continue to follow through with it`s plan to leave black America behind--replace it`s diminishing caucasian numbers with sprawling Asians, outsource employment to foriegn laborers and tie up loose ends with the aid of the lower class hispanics and their cheap labor.

Read the book, "The End of Blackness," by Debra J. Dickerson to find out....

So I guess your a victim of the Caucasian imposed misconceptions and stereotypes of the Black community. That's too bad.

Why did you entitle this post unnecessary blackness?

I think you misinterpret the term Black. What's your interpretation of 'blackness'

I guess you were too busy wiping skeet from your face to notice the last sentence of this discussion:

quote:

Read the book, "The End of Blackness," by Debra J. Dickerson to find out....

Read the book, "The End of Blackness," by Debra J. Dickerson to find out....---IRONHORSE

I listened to Ms Dickerson several months back. The longer she talked the less impressive she became.

I think she is of good intent. I am not sure she is sure what that intent is.

'Blackness' seems to have an unsure definition in her discourse.

PEACE

Jim Chester

Iron,

So I take it YOU don't have a definition.

You know, James Wesley, a while back, I used to wonder why it was so hard for us black people to find leaders in our community--why is it so hard to find someone that will lead this nation as malcolm X, Thurgood Marshall, and Martin Luther King Jr. did.

It's because, in this day and age, black people are very crab-hearted--they are always quick to tear down any and all blacks that try to, at least, step up to the plate and do something about their environment. Every single black person that has been in a position of authority, like Condi Rice and Colin Powell or people that have spoken their mind on the state of black America like Debra Dickerson, John McWorter, or Dr. Cornell West, some black group is always in opposition to their opinions and beliefs to the point they are forced to transcend their own race to some degree to be understood?

Why is that? Why can't we, as a race, appreciate whatever talents and ensight these people have to offer us instead of disowning them because they may not share he same views as the majority? It's a wonder why no one wants to step up to the plate and be a prolific leader--it's your own black people that doom you to failure before you gain any momentum.

It just doesn't make sense for a person to have to have street credibility or have to have fallen in some kind of way in order for the black masses to respect them i.e. Bishop T.D. Jakes, Judge Mathis, Mayor Marion Berry, however, people like Condoleezza, Colin, Obama and Mfume are perceived as sellouts?

I said all that to say this--what is the big deal about discrediting Debra Dickerson because you don't believe in her views? I've listened to Debra speak, myself, and I didn't find anything she said to be unimpressive. People in high profile positions like Dickerson, McWhorter, Dyson, West and others aren't going to always be on point--so do they deserve ridicule if they aren't? No. All I'm saying is just appreciate them for what they are trying to accomplish instead of letting your own pettiness and selfish views get in the way.

All I'm saying is just appreciate them for what they are trying to accomplish instead of letting your own pettiness and selfish views get in the way.---IRONHORSE

I do give her credit. If those are words you need to hear, there they are.

I listened to her entire one-hour presentation, and her 20-minute Q & A. Her rationale left her original point behind.

That's only fact.

I agree with her approach to 'blackness' as the 'gathering point' for action within our community.

It is inevitable that the rationale ultimately falters and fails. The rationale fails because it does not offer an alternative.

Just being American will not 'crack the nut.'

I think Ms Dickerson is 'extending a ladder into the barrel.' I think she is saying 'blackness' will not be the 'ship of our salvation.'

I not only think she is right. I know she is right.

She does not offer and identifiable alternative unique to African American-Americans.

To me that is not 'tearing down'.

It is a fair critique.

There certainly isn't anything personal there.

Ms Dickerson is a 'big girl'.

PEACE

Jim Chester

quote:

Originally posted by IRONHORSE:
You know, James Wesley, a while back, I used to wonder why it was so hard for us black people to find leaders in our community--why is it so hard to find someone that will lead this nation as malcolm X, Thurgood Marshall, and Martin Luther King Jr. did.

It's because, in this day and age, black people are very crab-hearted--they are always quick to tear down any and all blacks that try to, at least, step up to the plate and do something about their environment. Every single black person that has been in a position of authority, like Condi Rice and Colin Powell or people that have spoken their mind on the state of black America like Debra Dickerson, John McWorter, or Dr. Cornell West, some black group is always in opposition to their opinions and beliefs to the point they are forced to transcend their own race to some degree to be understood?

Why is that? Why can't we, as a race, appreciate whatever talents and ensight these people have to offer us instead of disowning them because they may not share he same views as the majority? It's a wonder why no one wants to step up to the plate and be a prolific leader--it's your own black people that doom you to failure before you gain any momentum.

It just doesn't make sense for a person to have to have street credibility or have to have fallen in some kind of way in order for the black masses to respect them i.e. Bishop T.D. Jakes, Judge Mathis, Mayor Marion Berry, however, people like Condoleezza, Colin, Obama and Mfume are perceived as sellouts?

I said all that to say this--what is the big deal about discrediting Debra Dickerson because you don't believe in her views? I've listened to Debra speak, myself, and I didn't find anything she said to be unimpressive. People in high profile positions like Dickerson, McWhorter, Dyson, West and others aren't going to always be on point--so do they deserve ridicule if they aren't? No. All I'm saying is just appreciate them for what they are trying to accomplish instead of letting your own pettiness and selfish views get in the way.

I'm not familiar with Dickerson, but I did notice that the name of a certain current Supreme Court Justice is conspicuously missing from your lists of Blacks in high profile positions. Was that intentional?

As for Condi Rice and Colin Powell, sometimes people lose credibility through their own actions.

And sometimes people spend all of their credibility in the service of those who have none of their own to spend.

quote:

I'm not familiar with Dickerson, but I did notice that the name of a certain current Supreme Court Justice is conspicuously missing from your lists of Blacks in high profile positions. Was that intentional?

No, Ricardomath, our esteemed supreme court justice wasn't even on my mind at the time. You're also right about people losing their credibility at their own hand, nevertheless, it still doesn't erase the accomplishments they made to get to the point where they are to assume those high positions of authority--Condoleezza and Colin--two of the most powerful black people on earth.

As for you, James Wesley, don't take my comments offensively. I mearly wanted to get my point across--even though Debra has her flaws, which she has been candid about in her books and in public speaking, she still is an influential person. No, you didn't have to make a good comment about her just to make me feel better--I feel good on my own--I just feel we, as a people, should support our black people whom seek to make a change.

We, as a people, have lost that unity of support for each other over the years--we're quick to ridicule and critisize each other instead of encouraging and uplifting.

We, as a people, have lost that unity of support for each other over the years--we're quick to ridicule and critisize each other instead of encouraging and uplifting.---IRONHORSE

It seems the only thing acceptable is to agree with you.

I don't.

It seems equally real that disagree with one's view quickly becomes interpreted as downgrading the person.

This seems like a perverse/reverse applicationn of 'kill the messenger.'

Rather than a discussion of the message, it has become an exchange of personal evaluation.

I try not to do that.

PEACE

Jim Chester

JWC,

You know I'm taken notes right?

You know, James, I don't know where you got the idea that the only way you can carry a conversation with me is to agree with me. If you don't care for, Debra, fine, you're entitled to your opinion and, contrary to popular belief, I don't hate you for it--it's certainly no reason to be frigid and sarcastic.

quote:

It seems equally real that disagree with one's view quickly becomes interpreted as downgrading the person.

Now, see, that was uncalled for. Any comment that I made when in communication with you, James, was in a general sense and was not directed at you at all.

Why do I get the feeling that I'm at some sporadically bourgeoise country club--it's amazing how some of you, particularly the men, on this site revel in expressing their intellect--analyzing every word, every sentence, every paragraph of a person's discussion, and make snap judgements about people's personalities without even knowing them because they don't follow the parlimentary procedures of AfricanAmerican.org?

quote:

Rather than a discussion of the message, it has become an exchange of personal evaluation.

That was also unecessary--I made no personal evaluation of you, James. It certainly seemed that I could converse with Ricardomath on our different views of Condoleezza and Colin without there being some kind of personal exchange.

As for this person, HeruStar, he reminds me of a person from another site--he too was bitter, spiteful, messy and vendictive because he didn't have the integrity or maturity to accept being bested. He also followed me in almost every forum I made, posting snide, indirect comments, trying to get attention.

I hope that you and I, James, can converse on different topics in the future--agree and or agree to disagree without having to make personal accusations.

Great.

There's a question among others listed in this thread that I would like to know more as to why.

Why the question?

How has "blackness" diminished the sovereignty of African Americans as rational and moral beings?---IRONHORSE

How do you conclude 'sovereignty' in African American-Americans?

I happen to agree. I am interested in your rationale.

And further, with that sovereignty being a reality what we done with it, and why haven't we done more.?

PEACE

Jim Chester

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
JWC,

You know I'm taken notes right?

Me too.

PEACE

Jim Chester

Iron,
How can one's personal opinions be bested either way? The only way that I or you can be "bested" is if we find falsehood in eachothers facts or logic. I don't think that was your intention, neither was in mines.

"Blackness" is a topic that always peaks my interest, moreso other peoples connotations of it. I asked the question earlier because I wanted to see if you thought "Black" and "Ghetto" were synonomous adjectives. JW is a proactive activist with a knowledgable library of insight on the political struggle of establishing our identity. That's why your title raised his brow as well.


How has the notion of "blackness" bamboozled African Americans into an unhealthy obsession with materialism, violence, misogyny, crime, institutionalization, self-degredation and infidelity? IRON


Honestly this question made me flinch a little bit. To me it implies that we do those dispicable things and use "because I'm black" as our rationale. Accusations like that make it hard for me to fight the urge to be mellodramatic, I thought I did well though. I'll show you my rationale for the drama.

Input: rap music, masculinity, blackness, poverty
Result: misogyny, crime, violence, institutionalization etc. etc.

This is what I gathered from you. It's a poor example, but I'm trying to point out the fact that it is false to believe that just because you throw "blackness" into the make-up of someones character doesn't mean that the person loses integrity.

IMO Blackness = Awareness = Consciousness = Soulfulness

'...I'm trying to point out the fact that it is false to believe that just because you throw "blackness" into the make-up of someones character doesn't mean that the person loses integrity.'---HeruStar

Exactly.

'blackness' is used to fill all voids.

When in doubt....'blackness'.

When rationale fails...'blackness'.

When alternatives are lacking...'blackness'.

Debra Dickerson was expressing the realization of the futility of such mentality, and calls for an end to 'blackness'.

My point is that she offers no alternative.

Though it is satisfying to realize the need, and call for an end to 'blackness', no service has been done when no alternative is provided.

We, as a people, need to satisfy the natural drive of all humanity that demands identity; the need for definable uniqueness.

If 'blackness' is all that one can determine for himself/herself, take it and use it until your perception of self expands, grows, incorporates more of the sovereignty of your humanness.

When that happens you can, and will, demand more of yourself in identifying yourself.

PEACE

Jim Chester

quote:

Debra Dickerson was expressing the realization of the futility of such mentality, and calls for an end to 'blackness'.

My point is that she offers no alternative.

Though it is satisfying to realize the need, and call for an end to 'blackness', no service has been done when no alternative is provided.

I'm glad you wrote what you wrote, James, specifically, this part: "..no service has been done when no alternative is provided.."

I caught Debra on CSPAN earlier this year where she discussed exactly what you said she hadn't provided--a service. I do not remember the exact particulars of the discussion but she talked to the effect of calling black professionals to take six months to a year's leave of absense from their jobs, and engage themselves in various projects in selected inner city areas of Baltimore and New York, where they can mentor young black males--teach them work ethics, social wellness and personal accountabilty.

She talked to the effect of not only having accomplished lawyers, euntreprenuers, and doctors volunteer their time, she also discussed the involvement of college students volunteering their time to work with the various mentoring organizations that Debra is either affiliated or familiar with. Now, just because I am not in the position of copying and pasting exact details, facts, and direct quotations in this discussion doesn't mean I'm lying nor should it make what I'm saying any less valid.

Now, as far as 'blackness' is concerned, I discussed that, to some degree, with Ricardomath as well as you, James:

quote:

It just doesn't make sense for a person to have to have street credibility or have to have fallen in some kind of way in order for the black masses to respect them i.e. Bishop T.D. Jakes, Judge Mathis, Mayor Marion Berry, however, people like Condoleezza, Colin, Obama and Mfume are perceived as sellouts?

There is a culture amongst black people that you have to have a certain 'blackness' in order to be credible--it affects high profile blacks across the board--even Reggie Miller of the Indiana Pacers has attested to being treated unfairly by his peers because he doesn't share the same humble beginings of the typical black NBA star.

People like Condoleeza Rice, Colin Powell, John McWhorter, Quaze Mfume, Debra Dickerson, and, well, any black republican, for that matter (I'm an independent by the way), are considered sellouts, whereas, people like Al Sharpton, Jessie Jackson, Bishop T.D. Jakes, Judge Mathis, and Mayor Marion Berry are, for the most part, are unconditionally embraced.

Even Thurgood Marshall was generally painted as being a communist and a sellout in the height of his career as a lawyer as he worked tirelessly to abolish Jim Crow, whereas, Martin Luther King was embraced--even now, in recent years, Martin Luther King Jr's credibility has been attacked by some of his own surviving supporters, who were closest to him.

Believe me, James, I've been taking notes too since I first came to this site. I investigated many other websites, as well as this one, before I chose to take an active role here, and also bring four other new members, qty226, HeavenlyBody_77, AVISUNSHINE, and xxGAMBITxx here.

This is why I've always said, don't make snap judgements of people before you take the time to get to know them.

quote:

How has the notion of "blackness" bamboozled African Americans into an unhealthy obsession with materialism, violence, misogyny, crime, institutionalization, self-degredation and infidelity?

See, here's where my unorthodoxed sense of humor comes into play--I purposefully wrote that passage WITHOUT stating the source--the inside flap of Debra Dickerson's book, "The End of Blackness," which is also why I suggested reading the book. You are coming to find out VERY quickly that I purposefully write with the intent to raise eyebrows, otherwise, my postings would have basically gone unoticed.

With all due respect, anyone, particularly someone that would frequent a site that is considered to be of "intelligence.black.unity" would at least casually stroll over to their favorite bookstore, and at least seek out the book, crack it open and skimm the sleeve.

IRONHORSE:

I don't know what makes it necessary for you to repeatedly go back to this 'street credibility' thing.

I understand what you have said about one group of notables versus the other. Unfortunately, that is true.

I have found that this behavior is just another in the list I made for alternatives to 'blackness.'

With this thinking, and when all else fails, the argument reverts to; 'You ain't street.' 'You ain't 'black'. or 'You ain't 'black' enough.

And the list goes on.

You don't owe me credentials.

You say Debra Dickerson did offer alternatives to 'blackness' with her challenge to professionals to do stuff.

That is not an alternative to 'blackness.'

It is a challenge to a different lifestyle.

'Blackness' has become an identity for many.

Social service is great, but it cannot be an alternative for 'blackness'.

If you were making a list of social services, surely you would put 'blackness' on that list.

By the way, I agree with you about this site. I have said many times is the class of the African American focus on the Internet.

MBM gets credit for that.

He does an excellent job of controlling the crab grass.

And stimulating healthy growth.


PEACE

Jim Chester

Okay, James, we're both intelligent men and understand there are two different definitions of 'blackness' both being true by afrocultural standards which, in laymen's has been loosely identified as being "black" and being a "nigger."

I liked the way Chris Rock and his mother explained the difference in "blackness" in an interview on the 60 minutes:

quote:

"I consider myself to be black...a nigger will sit at home, watch you leave your home, go to work, rob your home while you're gone, and when you return he'll say, "I heard you got robbed!....I wouldn't want a nigger living next to me."