I meant, Rowe is usually the one to tell us TO CHILL, reminds us of the community guidelines, and tells us that the menfolk deserve respect. Correcting a typo in the quote. my bad.

quote:

Originally posted by negrospiritual:
"How did you get this filter, which allows you to see most black women in a particular way, especially considering we are not monolithic" is a legitimate question to ask and is not indicative of a lack of compassion.

The brotha said nothing about black women being monolithic.

The question was more about how you can regain proper perspective after having some very nasty experiences.

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

quote:

Originally posted by Rowe:
And so, you cannot say that ghetto customer service representatives represent all service representatives, just as I cannot reach the conclusion that the majority of Black men in this country are violent simply beause a large number of Black men in D.C. are killing one another. If I opened a topic saying:

I don't think anyone was trying to generalize to all customer service representatives.

What I don't understand, sister Rowe, is how is it possible for you to understand women's emotional reactions ... which may result in stereotyping all black men based on a few severe experiences ... as in

quote:

Originally posted by Rowe:
As a Black woman, I can give you a litany of reasons why Black women might have "bad attitudes", and in many cases, they have every right to have bad attitudes. Many of them grow up in environements that are unsafe and unprotected by the men in their community. Often times, it is the men who are supposed to protect them and their families that are the predators. As a result, these women develop a festering distrust of men, and in some cases, this distrust is what ultimately protects them from being abused, raped, prostituted, or used again. Some might ask the question why do these women "allow" themselves to be treated this way? Why don't they just "choose" better lovers, better fathers, better uncles, better brothers? But this type of criticism usually comes from people who never grew up in severely impoverished areas. They don't know what it's like to live with family members who are addicted to alcohol and/or drugs. Or to be trapped in a transgenerational cycle of poverty and abuse.

... but don't seem to be able to summon the same compassion for men?

You ought to try moving to one of these God forsaken towns in the south or midwest ... where you have neither friends nor family .... and see what a profound effect a few severe experiences can have on your outlook.

Brother Honest, you would have to enter the discussion just after I annonced my leaving. Ultimately, I just don't think that ANY type of racist, sexist, or blanketed criticism or stereotype can be taken seriously. Sure, I've encountered Black women with attitudes, but I'm never going to be so ignorant as think that all, or even the majority, of the Black women in this country have bad attitudes. I'm sorry, but that is absurd.

The majority of Black women are Religious, now THAT I can believe, because countless studies have shown that Black people in general are notoriously religious and spiritual. But I've never read a single study that confirmed Black women in general had "bad attitudes". I think people are just allowing the media (like the insightful Brother Zakar suggested) influence their views about Black people. Anyone can find something if their minds have been prepped to be receptive to it. I forget what it's called, but there is a psychological term for this type of thinking. Anyway, a similar experience happens, according to RESEARCH, when White teachers teach a classroom full of predominately African American children. Because many White teachers have very little interaction with Black children, and with Black people in general, they develop negative and provincial ideas about Black children and their potential to learn. Essentially, their minds have been geared to believe (and expect) Black children to perform poorly in school, to fail, and to be unruly in the classroom. Not surprisingly, on her their first days of school, they notice that "every" Black child in the classroom has met her low expectations and is doing exactly what they assumed they would, overlooking little Denise or little Eric, or little Ryan who are staying on task, being attentive, and DOING THEIR WORK. I think a similar experience is taking place with Brother Axm, and so many others who look for behaviors in our community that will confirm our negatively influenced views of Black people, whatever they may be. In other words, they (the American majority) has trained us to look for and emphasize the negative in one another, rather than the positive, because that's what they do when they are among us and portraying us.

Anyway, my goodness it's late, I didn't mean to get into this topic to this extent.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rowe,

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

I would agree.

But maybe we should be asking women to check out their own filters ...

Instead of giving a blank check to feel as they like as in:

I too agree. I frequently post about how we (women) can easily access and retreat into the bitter battle ax role with a quickness. We (generally) use our tongue as a defense mechanism.

I didn't interpret Rowe's post as a blank check for women to feel as they like. Rather, she gave some compelling statements about why a black woman MIGHT come off as having "attitude" or might distrust men.

Make no mistake about it, these roles that "some" black women retreat into and the roles that "some" black men take on as a result of dealing with hurt, abuse, pain, and rejection must be healed if our communities are to move forward as a collective.


Which parts did you perceive as invalidating the male perspective while being accepting of female reality?

All im saying is black men and black women in these days are having a very hard time socializing in this current environment. For some strange reason we have turned on ourselves.These gender wars only benefit the system of white supremacy.

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

quote:

Originally posted by negrospiritual:
"How did you get this filter, which allows you to see most black women in a particular way, especially considering we are not monolithic" is a legitimate question to ask and is not indicative of a lack of compassion.

The brotha said nothing about black women being monolithic.

The question was more about how you can regain proper perspective after having some very nasty experiences.

the brotha said something akin to that when he posted a litany of black women he has had these experiences with, leading us to believe that having nasty interchanges with black women is the norm for him, or rather pervasive. He even invokes the bond of brotherhood by reminded the brothas in the thread that they know what he's talking about.

again, i really tried to stay out of the thread, when i saw that he was going to be coddled instead of challenged.

The best way to disarm a troubling thought is to challenge the irrationality of it and replace it with something more rational

ie

I have had some nasty experiences with black men/women, but I cannot rationally allow that to bleed over into how I view most black women/men i come into contact with.

How is this man's statements different than those of a certain male poster who loves to generalize about black women?

quote:

Originally posted by Rowe:
Sure, I've encountered Black women with attitudes, but I'm never going to be so ignorant as think that all, or even the majority, of the Black women in this country have bad attitudes. I'm sorry, but that is absurd.

I wasn't attempting to defend the idea that the majority of black women have bad attitudes.

quote:

The majority of Black women are Religious, now I can believe that, because countless studies have shown that Black people in general are notoriously religious.

Which, in my case, is plenty of enough reason to be resentful ... with or without bad attitudes ...

quote:

Anyone can find something if their has minds have been prepped to be receptive to it. I forget what it's called, but there is a psychological term for this type of thinking. Anyway, a similar experience happens when White teachers teach a classroom full of predominately African American children. Her mind has been geared to believe (and expect) Black children to perform poorly in school and to be unruly in the classroom. Not surprisingly, on her first day of teaching, she notices that "every" Black child in the classroom has met her low expectations. I think a similar experience is taking place with Brother Axm.

This might very well be true.

However, though I recognize the reality of "self hate" ... I don't think it solves anything to bring it into every discussion as if it were a magical cure all that puts everything right just by announcing it.

quote:

I didn't interpret Rowe's post as a blank check for women to feel as they like. Rather, she gave some compelling statements about why a black woman MIGHT come off as having "attitude" or might distrust men.

Well ... can't you think of a set of circumstances under which a black man might distrust women?

quote:

Make no mistake about it, these roles that "some" black women retreat into and the roles that "some" black men take on as a result of dealing with hurt, abuse, pain, and rejection must be healed if our communities are to move forward as a collective.

Agreed.

quote:

Which parts did you perceive as invalidating the male perspective while being accepting of female reality?

Well ....

quote:

in many cases, they have every right to have bad attitudes.

Let us be clear ... while she is not saying that every (or even the majority of) black woman has a "bad attitude" ... she is saying that some do ... and indeed have a right to it.

Can the same concession be made for some men?

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

quote:

Originally posted by Afro Saxon:

quote:

Originally posted by axm:
I guess you're right Afro Saxon. I could be, yet, another brother that up & say "fuck it". But how do I rid myself of these venomous thoughts & predjudices towards black women, long after parting ways?

No disrespect, but, I'd appreciate you do not call me brother. Why change your thoughts? We all have prejudices. Your's is against Black women and by extension Blacks, assimilate into the other side and bad mouth Blacks with the rest of them.

With all due respect, the brother was honest about his feelings. And he did so in a respectful manner. I can respect that.

Brothers have pain and experience abuse and disappointment as well. They grow up in the same environments.

We cannot acknowledge and embrace the pain of sisters ... and then ignore (even marginalize and deny) that of brothers at the same time. Doing so will help absolutely nothing very fast.

If it makes sense to say that some black women feel threatened by and distrust for men (as Rowe was suggesting the brotha try to understand)... then surely the feeling has got to be real on the other side.

This black men don't have a right to feel ish has got to stop.

JMHO.

Respectfully or disrespectfully matters little to me. I gave him an honest response to his statement. I was respectful as I could possibly be with someone I have no respect for.
I never said Black men couldn't have feelings. I actually said he should maintain his feelings but simply assimilate into another's group. You can fight for the right for some to resent my mother, sister, future wife and future daughter, I'll leave you to that.

quote:

owever, though I recognize the reality of "self hate" ... I don't think it solves anything to bring it into every discussion as if it were a magical cure all that puts everything right just by announcing it.

IF SOMETHING IS AT THE CORE OF THE PROBLEM AND YOU CONTINUE TO REFUSE TO DEAL WITH IT.IT ONLY ADDS TO THE PROBLEM AND YOU ARE NEVER ABLE TO DEAL WITH OTHER PROBLEM. WHO ARE WE? HOW DO WE SEE OURSELVES? THESE ARE THE THINGS WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH. IF NOT WE WILL CONTINUE TO GO AROUND AND AROUND THE BELTWAY TO NOWHERE.

Times like this I wish this was the cocoalounge. The women there would have the self pride to dismantle this fool.

quote:

Originally posted by Afro Saxon:
You can fight for the right for some to resent my mother, sister, future wife and future daughter, I'll leave you to that.

I'm not fighting for anybody's right to resent anybody.

But the resentment is real - on the part of some men and some women - and you're not going to accomplish jack by wishing it away or wishing someone to assimilate to another group.

I don't think that you're giving approval of something by simply acknowledging it.

That's called living in denial.

quote:

Originally posted by ZAKAR:

quote:

owever, though I recognize the reality of "self hate" ... I don't think it solves anything to bring it into every discussion as if it were a magical cure all that puts everything right just by announcing it.

IF SOMETHING IS AT THE CORE OF THE PROBLEM AND YOU CONTINUE TO REFUSE TO DEAL WITH IT.IT ONLY ADDS TO THE PROBLEM AND YOU ARE NEVER ABLE TO DEAL WITH OTHER PROBLEM. WHO ARE WE? HOW DO WE SEE OURSELVES? THESE ARE THE THINGS WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH. IF NOT WE WILL CONTINUE TO GO AROUND AND AROUND THE BELTWAY TO NOWHERE.

Other things are at the core of the problem.

I know that, as a Black Man, expressing my feelings & asking for help is just a big social blunder in many circles, so shame on me; but that gives you an idea of the depths of my desperation.

Strength? I understand where Black Viking & Rowe is coming from, but projecting REAL strength IS NOT a problem for me. In fact, I find myself "Checking" many black women - constantly - b'cuz they would get out of line without any provocation on my part. But talking louder, and throwing my weight around just wasn't workin. I'm tired of arguing, and anticipating conflict - it's just no way to live. Thus, I appeal to you all.

Many of the insightful things that have been said will be taken into deep consideration; reviewing these key points will definitely help restore faith in my ability to better-address my problem. Thank you.

quote:

Originally posted by ZAKAR:
IF SOMETHING IS AT THE CORE OF THE PROBLEM AND YOU CONTINUE TO REFUSE TO DEAL WITH IT.IT ONLY ADDS TO THE PROBLEM AND YOU ARE NEVER ABLE TO DEAL WITH OTHER PROBLEM. WHO ARE WE? HOW DO WE SEE OURSELVES? THESE ARE THE THINGS WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH. IF NOT WE WILL CONTINUE TO GO AROUND AND AROUND THE BELTWAY TO NOWHERE.

At the core of this problem that is the subject of this particular discussion is a failure of men and women to adequately and successful understand each other. While I could enumerate the reasons for this misunderstanding, I will just say that it has nothing to do with "the white man" or his racist behaviors towards us. This is simply and wholly between "us" - Black women and Black men -- and the inevitable misconception that happens between the two genders.

It's a plain and simple as that!

quote:

Other things are at the core of the problem.

DOESNT MATTER IF A TREE IS BIG AND STRONG WITH BEATIFUL LEAVES. IF THE ROOTS OF THAT TREE DIE, THE WHOLE TREE IS DEAD!

Hey there, AXM! I figured we had run you off!

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

quote:

in many cases, they have every right to have bad attitudes.

Let us be clear ... while she is not saying that every (or even the majority of) black woman has a "bad attitude" ... she is saying that some do ... and indeed have a right to it.

Can the same concession be made for some men?

interpretation is a mugg, ain't it?

I am indeed "making concessions" for brothas when I talk about the roles that they take on as a result of pain, hurt, rejection, racism, DWB, etc. Sistas are asked to make concessions for a man's ego all the time.

I thought she was saying that those who have been abused, hurt, daddyless, raped, etc have a right to their pain, and that it may not have anything at all to do with Axm's approach but rather the context.

Also, you must acknowledge that the version of reality he is trying to assert is somewhat, unusual given that on any random day, you are likely to encounter some ice queens, some battle axes, some sweetie pies, some good neighbors, some comediennes etc.

Is it really credible that he is meeting mostly "nasty attitude" black women? Or is this some aspect of hurt and pain that he is bringing to the picture as well?

quote:

I will just say that it has nothing to do with "the white man" or his racist behaviors towards us. This is simply and wholly between "us" - Black women and Black men -- and the inevitable misconception that happens between the two genders.

HOW CAN YOU SAY SOMETHING LIKE THAT? EVERYTHING THAT GOES ON IN THIS SOCIETY HAS TO DO WITH WHITE SUPREMACY. EVERY SINGLE ASPECT OF THIS SOCIETY! NOW HOW WE DEAL WITH THIS SOCIETY IS ANOTHER STORY. BUT I REJECT SOMEONE PUTTIN ME IN THE MIDDLE OF THE OCEAN AND TELL ME MY CORE ISSUE ISNT HOW TO DEAL WITH ALL THIS WATER AROUND ME.

quote:

Originally posted by Afro Saxon:
Times like this I wish this was the cocoalounge. The women there would have the self pride to dismantle this fool.

I'm going to igg this attempt to say the women here don't have "self pride".