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Phoenix Rising |
*Her thoughts..... not mine... *
Why men mistreat women "I don't understand why women complain that men don't treat them well. The only reason why men treat women poorly is because women allow them to get away with it". The guy I am dating now said this to me a few days ago and he's said it before. He says it's simple: if women wouldn't tolerate shit from men, then men would be forced to treat them well. My thoughts: it's not that simple. It would be nice if it were because then women would have complete control over how they were treated. This comment rubbed be the wrong way both times he said it, but I've had a difficult time articulating why or explaining to him why I disagree. Let me preface this by saying that this guy has treated me like a Queen for the past month. He's considerate, respectful, gentlemanly. I don't think I've acted particularly different around him than other guys I've dated (who have treated me poorly) so his comment isn't an excuse for his own treatment of me. It's his general philosophy on the situation, which he likely developed by looking at other relationships, or hearing past girlfriends' stories of their relationships. If a woman is being treated poorly, taken advantage of, or disrespected by a man, it's easy for an outsider to say "well just leave him then" or "don't put up with that". But usually these types of situations are a lot more complex. While some women could easily do this, many women don't even realize they are being treated poorly. Or, they don't see it as black-and-white. Perhaps the guy originally treated her well, and she saw many great qualities in him, and once he started to disrespect her, she's already seen too many positive traits to leave him. What if the man is lying to the woman and she doesn't even know it? How is that her fault? What if she's being taken advantage of but she can't see it because she's blinded by her love for him or his other positive traits? What if thinks she deserves this kind of treatment because she hasn't been treating him well, or she simply has low self-esteem? I can think of many situations where I "tolerated" mistreatment from guys, particularly when I was in college and shortly after. These experiences shaped my view of men, relationships, how I act in relationships, and what I want in relationships. I've learned a lot, but when I reflect back on these experiences, I still don't blame myself and think "he was an ass hole because I let him be." No, some of these guys were real jerks who lied to me, disrespected me or took advantage of my niceness me without me even realizing it. These situations caused me a great deal of pain, and even though I am "over it", it's important to me that I don't blame myself for these experiences. I've gained a great deal of strength and self respect since then, but I still don't think it would be impossible for me to be taken advantage again without even realizing it. I guess what bothers me most, then, about this guy's comment is that if I were to open up and tell him about some of these past experiences, he wouldn't understand my feelings or he would tell me how I could have acted differently to prevent them. I used to beat myself up for what happened with these guys on a daily basis, so I don't need reinforcement of it. But he encourages me to be open with him about my feelings and not be secretive like a typical Scorpio would be. Maybe I'm afraid that if he doesn't understand my point of view on this topic, that he won't understand me. With John, he wasn't disrespecting me, but he certainly wasn't treating me the way I deserved to be treated in a relationship. I decided I wouldn't tolerate it anymore, and now he's out of my life. I suppose it's for the best, but it wasn't like this was an easy decision for me. Ideally, he'd just change and be able to give me what I wanted in the relationship. I didn't "put up with it", so now he's no longer around. He seems very firm in his belief that men only treat women poorly because women let them, and he seems unwilling to explore other possibilities. Yes, on a basic level, he's right. But he's not taking into account all the complexities that relationships involve, and he doesn't seem to understand why a women wouldn't be able to simply walk away or speak up for herself. I used to think to myself "I don't understand why women stay in abusive relationships and marriages. If their husband hits them, why don't they just leave?" It seemed very simple to me. But then I saw some real life examples of this and I realized just how hard it can be for a women to remove herself from a situation like that. The guy I'm dating isn't saying that men can't be ass holes. He acknowledges that there are plenty of jerks out there. But if women didn't tolerate their behavior, they would be alone and not have anyone to be an ass hole to. That, or they'd be forced to change.
Peace, Khalliqa "The Goddess emerges as the evanescence of the inferior dissipates.... " |
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Phoenix Rising |
Just a
  Peace, Khalliqa "The Goddess emerges as the evanescence of the inferior dissipates.... " |
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C5 |
Men mistreat women, especially Black men, because of the disrespect men have for women. This has not always been the case for Black men. We, the Afrikan men in ameri-kkk-a, are emulatinig our european enslavers; that is, we do exactly to our women what we see the european man do to theirs. We have become the europeans counterpart. In the mother land, prior to slavery, the Black man and Black woman had a relationship where mutual respect was the norm. Men had his place and women had theirs in Afrikan society. Women were not expected to compete with men and vise versa.
There was no need for male chauvinism because the woman was not expected to do the same things expected of men. The woman was the head of the 'household' and raised the children. The man was the head of the 'house' and was the bread winner. Lust for men or women was not in the equasion because they were in-tune with and in balance with nature. The respect for women was essential for the well being of the clan. That is the reason 'it takes a village to raise a child' was the accepted rule. Boys were taught to become men by men and girls were taught to become women by women. Today this system has been taken out of our hands and run by various governmental organizations who say how to raise them, when to raise, where to raise them and on what to raise them. When we were stolen and brought to this country, Black men were made to witness the way european men treated (or shall I say mistreated) their women as well as ours. He had no respect for the woman and used her for his lustful way of life. Sex, to the european, is a entertaining way of life; that is, an accepted way their society embellish the relation between men and women, regardless if they are single or married. Sex sells and the lustfullnes in this country is one of the most money making ventures of all enterprises. Because the european had our women as chattel he could do everything under the sun to them. Black men were powerless to stop them. The european slave master, his son, his father, his brother, his friend, or any other european could come into your home, snatch the woman or girl up, rape her and then leave. The man was powerless to stop this carnage because there were absolutely no laws to protect them. What the european was able to do to our women he could do also (with his sick mind) to our men or boys. This showed the Black woman that Black men were powerless to help them in any situation and the european, thus, had the right of way. Eventually the Black women begin to depend on european men for their salvation. Also, it helped them in raising their childred although they came to realize that they may eventually lose them to the slavery system and never see them again. Additionally, because some slave men and women were bren like dogs and cattle, their alligence to one another was lacking. You also have to understand that the welfare system created multiltudes of problems between Black men and women and never solved anything. It just created more and more problems. The woman on welfare was told that she could not have a man in her house, even the childrens father. Then, the europeans would blame Black men for being absententee fathers or that the children were raised in a fatherless homes. Being on welfare was akin to being in the military (so to speak). This brutal system still exists today and is still creating many, many problems between Black men and women. It has allowed generations of families to be raised in 'projects' (called low income housing for non-Black people) without breaking this cruel spell. This system breeds crime because you cannot put poor, powerless and neglected people together like rats and expect them to behave like humans. Some women, who depend on the welfare system, come to believe that men are only good for one thing: sex. This system (and I don't mean the welfare system only) ensures that Black women become the head of the house and the household. This system ensures that some Black woman get educated and jobs. It also insures that the Black man get little if any education, no jobs, and jailed or prisoned thereby no Black babies are forth coming. A unique system of genocide. Creates untold problems within the Black race. When you watch various television programs where men are murdering women, it is nearly always a european doing the killing. Nearly all of your serial killings of women are by european men. Most of the brutality of women are by european men. Yet, the Black man, who is emulating his european counterpart, is more likely to be vilified than the european man. The Black man is doing what he was taught to do by his european slavers. Willie Lynch, in his letter to slave masters, told slave masters how to circumvent the process of Black women being loyal to their Black man by destroying the Black man in front of her. This insured more dependence on the powerful european man by the Black woman and less dependence on the powerless Black man. In short, my Beautiful Black Sisters, the reason why some of our women are mistreated by some Black men is due to the system under which we live (survive). Black men never mistreated his Queen until he became a slave. Prior to that his woman was put on a pedestal. After he was dehumanized by his slave owners, he became exactly what they (the slavemaster) were. PIGS. This is not to say that all Black men are like that. Quite the contrary. This system needs to use women in a negative way because negativity' in this aspect, sells. Whem women decided to compete with men for things men had taken for granted, they became less feminent and more masculinent. This allowed men to do what they have always done to women: use and abuse them. Hotep My Beautiful Black Brothers and Sisters, listen to www.wblr.com and learn the truth. E-mail me at:cpohio1940@aol.com. Again, HOTEP (Peace). |
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Phoenix Rising |
Thank you for your response... It seems well thought out and was informative as well.... The presentation of the influence of the larger society upon the social values and tolerances of our (Black people's) mind are not something most people can really accept, unfortunately.... Many people, not just men, live in a very temporal world, demanding complete peace and satisfaction in this world that they do not rule.... Your points, I thought were good starting points in this direction.... May I ask... What then do you think should be the mindset of brothers who see sisters in degrading situations... suppose she's desperate? suppose she obviously has low self esteem? suppose she's throwing herself at him? Should he laugh at her... be disgusted and dismiss her? take advantage of her weakness and get some? should he thumb his nose at his sister.. in this condition? should he be angry at her? loaded questions yes... my "agenda" in this particular post is "obvious".... what do we say of brothers that keep choosing to be with women that are obviously not in a healthy state? I'm asking focused on male responsibility in these situations as opposed to female responsibility because this is the den... Perhaps the Answer to the problem of Black male and female relationships is for brothers to find comfort in women that are non Black....? That will definitely prevent them from having to deal with the problems their own women face.... Peace, Khalliqa "The Goddess emerges as the evanescence of the inferior dissipates.... " |
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The Watcher |
Please "unload" the questions. Give us an opportunity to thoughtfully answer without wading through "other" stuff. It appears that you have asked a question and answered it yourself all in one post.
Thanks for your consideration. ------------------------------ R.I.F. (Reading IS Fundamental)... "There are five dangerous faults which may affect a general: (1) Recklessness, which leads to destruction; (2) cowardice, which leads to capture; (3) a hasty temper, which can be provoked by insults; (4) a delicacy of honor which is sensitive to shame; (5) over-solicitude for his men, which exposes him to worry and trouble." -Sun Tzu |
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Phoenix Rising |
No... You DO have an opportunity to thoughtfully answer the questions.... you don't have to wade... you are perfectly capable of comprehending the question.... No one is forcing you to wade.. or to answer... ummm... I decided since I'm almost ALWAYS accused by you of having an "agenda" I decided to have one and show you... if you choose not to answer.. so be it... just read it and stroll on.... consider it a statement and either absorb what the other person is saying ALONG with the emotions behind it, which by the way is a key part of communication, or ignore it.... I am not going out of my way to get you or anyone else to understand me in this thread anymore than you are trying to get to know me by dictating HOW I communicate my frustrations.... In other words... if you say "Khalliqa don't ask questions you seem to have the answers to"... then you shouldn't dialogue with people that have presumed answers.... or emotions... You could simply say... "No, sister we don't think like that... here is what we think"... Or "No sister, when we say we want women outside of black women its because of...." these would generate dialogue without you trying to control how I express myself....and it allows me to retain the dignity of having emotions negative or positive.... Or you could just go with your standard offensive directives of "I need you to restate all your questions in a way that I feel comfortable answering them" ummm... nope... I'm very capable of stroking a man's ego.... you've seen me do it numerous times.... of restating questions to make them more palatable... you've even stated that I'm a master of it... but I get tired.... of considering.... and not being considered.. Peace, Khalliqa "The Goddess emerges as the evanescence of the inferior dissipates.... " |
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A1 |
Men can mistreat women because we also can be subconsciously emotionally unstable. Consciously we can tell ourselves that "this is the woman of my dreams", and at the same time subconsciously be apprehensive and paranoid. Women can be viewed as a high-risk investment, as far as investing one's heart is concerned. With that high-risk comes high reward, and a crazy paranoia for losing all that is invested. Women are more stable in this regard because barring heinous crimes like (cheating, beating...) women can tolerate alot of blows to what she feels is her man's value. I say some men are unstable, because something as simple as her hanging up the phone in his face, or comparing him to other men, can subconsciously make her stock plummet. With this tremendous decrease in value, she becomes less appreciated, and thus either neglected or mistreated. (<--kinda the same thing huh?) For these men, there needs to be a tremendous conscious effort to constantly remind themselves of her value.
THAT TYPE OF HONESTY IS BELOW MY PAYGRADE. |
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Phoenix Rising |
Damn Heru... ouch... I think I actually can see that... that hurts a little bit though.... because I've been on the receiving end of that before... but I see your point.. I think women sometimes in response will try to play the same game.. (tried to do that too)... tried to pretend like I didn't care... it didn't work... it got worse.. and worse.. because my pretending not to care made him more reserved... only when I was honest and free with my emotions did he respond in kind.. but it was a highly vulnerable position for me to be in because I kept expecting him to just call everything off.... so I would intermittently go into reserve mode myself... that was one of the worst relationships I'd ever been in.... I think honesty is important... but so is chemistry... and so is timing... I have known men who have not been so reserved.... and emotionally unstable.... perhaps its just timing... I had a brother completely call off a courtship because other brothers were interest in courting me.... that wasn't my fault, however, it made him insecure and he would say the meanest things to me... I spent my whole time trying to convince him that it was he that I wanted and the other half trying to figure out why I was tolerating all his crap.... He would hang up on me if my phone beeped.... stuff like that.... Peace, Khalliqa "The Goddess emerges as the evanescence of the inferior dissipates.... " |
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C5 |
... in the future, maybe try asking him about his mother...
 if he has a complex, it will come out in the wash. |
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A1 |
I'll comment on a a part of this posting...
"I guess what bothers me most, then, about this guy's comment is that if I were to open up and tell him about some of these past experiences, he wouldn't understand my feelings or he would tell me how I could have acted differently to prevent them. I used to beat myself up for what happened with these guys on a daily basis, so I don't need reinforcement of it. But he encourages me to be open with him about my feelings and not be secretive like a typical Scorpio would be. Maybe I'm afraid that if he doesn't understand my point of view on this topic, that he won't understand me." ===>>>I would recommend that she NOT open up about her past relationship situation. She will only add confusion to what could be a good current love relationship. I feel that she can be better served by, in her own mind, comparing her ex or her current and saying, again to herself, 'Wow, this guy is nothing like the jerks i've dated in the past....i'm loving this!!'...if she were to 'open up' her past, she might find that her new man could lose respect for her based off of the decisions she made then. |
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A2 |
This is specifically the problem that is faced right now: Too many black women refusing to take responsibility for the poor decisions they make in the partners they choose as well as other poor decisions. There is no "yeah but black men do it too" in this situation. The shortcomings and misdeeds of black men have been communicated in every way, shape, and form - in every prime time newscast, magazine, church, made for tv drama, movie, theatre production, talk show, and book. At the same time black women have been forever presented as the damsel in distress, the happless, innocent victim of circumstance, the sole protector and provider, and the universal, everlasting protagonist in these same venues. So many black women have baught into this brainwashing that many of them think they actually can do no wrong. There is no need to be accountable because black men are the designated scape goat. It's been portrayed by the media as if black women are incapable of doing wrong and the few mistakes they do make can be attributed to the negative influences of black men - as if black women weren't capable of thinking for themselves - as if they were mindless creatures, farm animals, trained pets with no will of their own. We are faced with the reality where women are surpassing men in entering prison systems around the country. However, the main cause for many of these women being incarcerated is being an accessory to a crime committed by their boyfriends and/or husbands. These women made the conscious decision to commit the crimes they committed - just because they were only a part of the equation doesn't make them any less accountable for the crime they committed yet the system chooses to make black men the culprit for black women becoming accomplices in these various crimes. The time has come and past for many black women to hold themselves accountable - deal with disparities in a proactive way instead of a reactive way. If I'm not performing to the best of my abilities as a man and as a citizen, then let me know. But I get sick and damn tired of hearing about what black men are doing wrong when I am not a contributor to these misdeeds. I also get sick and damn tired of hearing: "You're an exception to the rule" in other words what you do doesn't count because there aren't enough of you doing the same good deeds. Fuck all this "yeah but black men do it too" mentality administered by many black women - dismissing any and all misdeeds committed by them at the expense of black men. that's just a sorry ass case to justify stubborness, unwillingness, and noncompliance to break the viscious cycle that contributes to keeping the black community non-viable victims of society.
I'd rather be hated for what I am than loved for what I'm not. - Chuck D. |
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Phoenix Rising |
Then: "what do we say of brothers that keep choosing to be with women that are obviously not in a healthy state?" Peace, Khalliqa "The Goddess emerges as the evanescence of the inferior dissipates.... " |
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Phoenix Rising |
But she says she was already uncomfortable doing so... it was he that was imploring her to be more open... I think in general in the world of dating,I think you are correct, its a good practice not to... but in my culture it is the total opposite... We are open and completely honest about our pasts... and it does not detract from the relationships... but RR she also seems to be in a bind... if she opens up more, she will be vulnerable to his whims... if she remains quiet she will be vulnerable to his suspicions..
Peace, Khalliqa "The Goddess emerges as the evanescence of the inferior dissipates.... " |
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Phoenix Rising |
talking to his mother is standard in courtship.... It had nothing to do with sorting him out this way beforehand... there were other signs that were a little hard for me to read at first... they were ambiguous... but as the relationship progessed... his insecure characteristics got louder.... and I became more aware... Peace, Khalliqa "The Goddess emerges as the evanescence of the inferior dissipates.... " |
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The Watcher |
There was no accusation of agenda. Throwing that idea out there does make it easy to ignore a request for a straightforward, barbless discussion.
Paint me however you need to - if that helps you discard my views, cool. At some point, venting has to end to find the path to healing. There are plenty of people here that will continue to engage you in sniper mode. I'm out of that. Until we (African American men & women) try to understand each other and try to extend basic courtesy & respect to each other, this is simply venting and an exercise in futility. Romulus gave it to you raw, but one of the roadblocks to any productive end is both genders willingly acknowledging that both genders need to do things differently. Including the way we address each other... ------------------------------ R.I.F. (Reading IS Fundamental)... "There are five dangerous faults which may affect a general: (1) Recklessness, which leads to destruction; (2) cowardice, which leads to capture; (3) a hasty temper, which can be provoked by insults; (4) a delicacy of honor which is sensitive to shame; (5) over-solicitude for his men, which exposes him to worry and trouble." -Sun Tzu |
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Phoenix Rising |
okay..
Your interpretation is incorrect... Perhaps instead of dismissing the color of my "paint" you could try actually understanding it...
Look D... If you don't like the way I express myself ... IGNORE ME...!!!!  You are obviously not the type of person for someone like me to seek dialogue with... stop trying to explain how your inconsiderate ways are something I need to cater to....
buh.. bye... 
You talk one thing and practice another...
I suppose giving it to me raw (????? da hell???)... is acceptable... but having emotion in thought and venting is not... whaeva dude... Peace, Khalliqa "The Goddess emerges as the evanescence of the inferior dissipates.... " |
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The Watcher |
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