6 Ways To Tell Your Girl To Lose Some Weight
By Chris Lumsdon
Relationship Correspondent - Every other Monday

Many moons have passed since the first man threw his coat over a puddle for the daintier sex to walk across. Gender relations have been moving upward ever since. We have mastered small talk and we have succumbed to putting toilet seats down. We open doors, we pay for dinners and we smile nicely for surly old grandmothers so that when the right time comes, our deeds are currency to buy favors of our own.

We are not fools; the crow we have been eating for years has all been by design. Soon we will get what we want. And in this instance, you want your girlfriend to lose a couple of pounds. If she were thinner, you would desire her more, uh, she'd be more attractive, uh, what I really mean is that her clothes would fit better, which means... damn.
risky business
To embark on a mission to tell your girlfriend to lose some weight is among the most taboo rituals in the history of he said/she said. One false move, and you will forever live in infamy as the man who destroyed the hard work of many men accomplished over many, many years. On the other hand, if you successfully coerce your lady friend into shedding a few pounds with some slick tongue trickery, prepare for immortality. You'll never need to blow kisses at bloated grannies again.

Speaking openly with your girlfriend about her weight is an intricate science. Women fall into two very distinct categories: those who feel fat but look great, and those who feel fat and are fat. It is crucial that you are mindful of this when walking the fine line between helping your princess become the sculpted beauty she can be, and poking her insecurity buttons with a sharp stick.

For you, it can be the difference between happiness and an untimely death. Treat it with the belief that every male is watching your every move. Because we are.
make her want to do it
As much as we men have tried to reserve the right to fiddle and fuss about the shape of the missus, we must remember that our opinions about our women are just that: opinions.

One man's lump of coal is another man's diamond. If she is active, healthy and happy with her size, you best file your misgivings away. The worst thing you can do is swing below the belt. But if she is overindulgent and lazy, and her figure has paid the price, she may need a little help getting a weight-loss regimen into full swing.

There are many backhanded ways to put the seed of becoming svelter in the mind of your honey.

1- "I don't like the way that outfit looks on you anymore."
Every woman has a go-to getup. If you don't know it, you don't know her well enough to discuss her flabby stomach. The only thing that could ever change the way an outfit looks is the way it fits. Tell her you aren't sure why it looks odd, suggest a looser knit, and watch her forever skip the nachos with cheese.
2- "I can't get over how fat I feel."
Women have been commiserating with each other for eons about the thickness of their thighs. If you launch a pity party of your own about how heavy you feel, and let her know at every turn, she'll become fat-obsessed by osmosis. Women have been doing it to each other since the dawn of public washrooms.
3- "Your friend isn't nearly as attractive since she gained that weight."
Be careful. Delivery is everything. Pick her homeliest friend and you can let your most outrageous BS fly. Pick an attractive pal and you'll be explaining your wandering eye until you give her a ring. Focus on the improbable target, and she'll be thinking that if you find her bookworm buddy hefty, perhaps a diet should be on her docket.
4- "I have a new female trainer at the gym."
She won't suggest fewer trips to the gym, but it will drive her bonkers to think that another woman is spotting your squat thrusts. She'll sign up and be there within 24 hours just to keep an eye on you.
5- "The saleswoman said it was for smaller women."
If you want your girl to shed some baby fat, spend a couple of bucks on a nice little fashion piece a couple of sizes out of her reach. If she thinks she is thin in your eyes, and the only thing telling her otherwise is a piece of clothing, she'll work morning, noon and night to fit into that cursed thing.
6- "Let's help each other lose a couple of pounds?"
Let's face it. If you tell your girlfriend to lose some weight, she'll withdraw your all-access pass to her wonderful folds. But an honest commitment to work together to become fitter and shed some unwanted girth can only be met with the excitement that your investment in her is the same as what she is willing to invest in you. Losing weight is no small task. Make her sure you're worth it.
keep her thin
Remember men: To influence her decision to lose weight while avoiding any sore feelings is to make everything about you. How you feel, what you think, what your opinion is -- these are the things that will separate you just enough from the battle that is ultimately hers. The minute you make it about what you think she's doing wrong, you're dead meat, and we're all coming after you.

Weight loss takes time, so be patient. Now, all you have to do is keep that weight off yourself so you have a leg to stand on.

Is this about health reason. Or is this about him trying to have a trophy gf/wife. I read it and it seems more trophy then health. #6 was ok. But sitll trophy centerd.

As a big girl myself (5'7,192 pounds) neither unhealthy or unattractive(if I may say so myself) . I find that kind of insulting. Some of those "rules to follow" could get a man cut. If a man thinks a woman should lose weight for health reason he should be man enough to just come out and say it. But if the woman is happy with who she is no mater what size and he wants her to change her physical to be more appealing to his eye, he might just need to move on.

Whoa now, before you all start sharpening the machetes and readying the torches for a lynch mob, cut RR some slack. Let me just say, Raheem, that #6 is the only one I ever tried, but the rest of your list is food for thought. Personally, I enjoyed the tone of your post and thought it was witty.

I'm about to do a big "no-no" according to the man code and directly talk about weight. But this is the Den, and if we can't respectfully talk about it here then what's the point of having a Den. Aside from obvious health reasons to stay fit, what's wrong with wanting to look good for your significant other or wanting your S.O. to look good for you? Lets assume two people love eachother and have long seen past the physical to see her inner beauty. Why is a man automatically jumped on if he thinks "Baby, you only come up to my shoulder, but you weigh significantly more than me.. let's go work out." Before ripping into RR, can't you see that by trying to disguise his language and use euphemisms, he's showing tact with the subject matter that he knows is dangerous ground. As a man, I wouldn't get offended if my girl told me "Mmm, that LL Cool J is somethin delicious. Why don't you work on a six pack?" Is she wrong for finding LL attractive (smile and toned abs all)? Does she love me any less for bringing it up to me? For me the answer is no on both counts.

If one says that their qualm on the matter comes into play with the fact that a man isn't concerned with his lady's health so much as her aesthetic, I ask one to consider the fact that the two are not mutually exclusive. But addressing the aesthetic aspect, if a man was unshaven, didn't have a haircut, possibly unbathed yet had a sparkling personality would a woman give him the time of day? Maybe. But would she try to change those things about him? I should hope so. Now, before you lady readers get angry, I'm not equating weight with hygiene. One can be the cleanliest person in the world and be overweight. However, I am drawing parallels on the issue of self maintenance and image.

At 24, I fluctuate now between 180-185 at 5'11. I played soccer, basketball, ran track, and plan on restarting practicing capoeira. Comparing exercise habits of males in their youth (10-21) to females of the same age range, there is a discrepancy. Growing up, for all the boys that went outside and played.. what did the girls do? I believe that discrepancy is cultural, not necessarily exclusive to african americans, but cultural none the less. I believe the habits formed during youth are the basis for childhood obesity and that they carry into adulthood.

If it seems I'm painting this jaded, hateful panorama against women then I'm sorry. Weight isn't a woman problem. It's an american problem. I'm sure you've all seen the stats that a bit more than 50% of americans are overweight. If you break it down by sex, the numbers become even more skewed. (Warning: thin ice ahead) If you further break it down by race and by sex I believe some 60% of black men, while some 80% percent of black women were classified as overweight(to say nothing of "obese stats"). While statistics like these are culturally biased(i.e. black men like their women thicker, and what a white man thinks is fat a black man may think is the incarnate avatar of a goddess) those stats are still all too scary. And it can't all be blamed on genes and "thats just the way black people are made." I lived in Brasil and the black people there don't follow the same trend. It's cultural. It has to do with lifestyle choices(diet and exercise). And we need to stop being afraid of the dialog as long as it's respectful.

Nice post Paet-

#6 is the only tactic I'd try. Personally, I've just asked ladies to come workout with me. I didn't say I needed to lose a few like #6. It usually works. Now, why they don't last more than 3 months working out with me is a completely different topic...

tie a piece of ham to her waist and let some hungry pitbull 'follow her' to fitness

"Six Ways To Tell Your Girl To Lose Some Weight"

1. "Get off me! I can't breathe!!!"

2. "When are you going to stop leaving all those empty Bon-Bon boxes under the bed?"

3. "No, baby, maternity wear is not the new look."

4. "Why do you always look like you just stepped out of the shower after going to the mailbox?"

5. "Baby, I'm getting tired of having to get the passenger side front and rear wheels balanced and rotated."

6. "Don't you think one box of Sweet N' Low is enough for a cup of coffee?"

quote:

Originally posted by Romulus Burnett:
"Six Ways To Tell Your Girl To Lose Some Weight"

1. "Get off me! I can't breathe!!!"

2. "When are you going to stop leaving all those empty Bon-Bon boxes under the bed?"

3. "No, baby, maternity wear is not the new look."

4. "Why do you always look like you just stepped out of the shower after going to the mailbox?"

5. "Baby, I'm getting tired of having to get the passenger side front and rear wheels balanced and rotated."

6. "Don't you think one box of Sweet N' Low is enough for a cup of coffee?"

here's the funny thing. many a man on this site has said that the problem between black men and women stems from the black woman buying into white culture ideals about relationships and courting. interesting.

you see, traditionally, black women have always been big. sure you have your skinny ones, but traditionally (ask your grand daddy, and uncles), black men liked their women big and curvaceous. james brown liked them fat and proud. many a man wanted a woman with something to hold onto. african men still appreciate big girls too i've seen this in action. many a carribean and african man seem to lust after big girls the same as small. there are still tribes in africa that literally fatten their women up to make them more desirable for marriage. this wanting a black woman to be thin buys into white culture ideals about beauty. that whole throwing a coat over a puddle thing is traditionally a white concept. black men and women have always been equals from africa to the cotton fields and now. black women have always worked outside of the home long before white women thought it would make them liberated.but the same men who accuse the women of buying into white cultural norms, don't seem to recognize it in themselves. it's to the point where black men seem to think that a big girl does not deserve any love, affection or dates. black men put big girls down, but then get up in arms if black women complain about how too many of them are in jail, on the down low, or generally ain't *hit. maybe everyone needs to take a closer look at their attitudes, huh?

i was talking to a friend about this topic, you know, how black men are wanting their women to be thin. my friend said that this is possibly a black male backlash because black men feel women make them feel inadequate. black women are going to college and getting higher paying jobs in larger number than black men (for whatever reason, we all know the theories, that's not my point). so, the only thing that can make a black man feel better is to try and make black women feel inadequate because we may make money like white folks (or the perception is we make more money than them anyway), but many of us don't live up to the white beauty standard. frankly, the idea is that it's the only thing they can hold over our heads as a reason why we shouldn't be loved and appreciated.

though i think it's a bit militant a perspective, and i'm pretty sure i know what the men in the den think of that opinion, i can understand the inclination to think this.

quote:

Originally posted by little minx:
here's the funny thing. many a man on this site has said that the problem between black men and women stems from the black woman buying into white culture ideals about relationships and courting. interesting.


**most black women are overweight because they overeat and under-exercise**


you see, traditionally, black women have always been big. sure you have your skinny ones, but traditionally (ask your grand daddy, and uncles), black men liked their women big and curvaceous. james brown liked them fat and proud. he also loved many white women that were NOT large...what's your point??? I don't know the last Mr. Brown was the authority on black male desires...who knew??

many a man wanted a woman with something to hold onto. african men still appreciate big girls too i've seen this in action. In parts of Africa, like in many parts of the world, Obesity meant wealth. Fat people could be rich because the lower class people were serving their needs hand and foot. Just like Budda.

many a carribean and african man seem to lust after big girls the same as small. seem to?? yeah, that 'seems' like a ringing endorsement. where are your facts on this claim??

there are still tribes in africa that literally fatten their women up to make them more desirable for marriage. this wanting a black woman to be thin buys into white culture ideals about beauty. there are also tribes in Africa that silence their women and force them into brutal female circumcisions rituals. Are the tribes in Africa the gold standard for treatment of women??? I hope not.

that whole throwing a coat over a puddle thing is traditionally a white concept. black men and women have always been equals from africa to the cotton fields and now. Please prove this. I await your reply on this topic

black women have always worked outside of the home long before white women thought it would make them liberated.but the same men who accuse the women of buying into white cultural norms, don't seem to recognize it in themselves.

so being fat and sloppy is a good thing?? tell your doctor about that doing your next physical. Maybe they can encourage you and other black women to 'double up' on your meals so that you too can look like this...
SEXY!!!


it's to the point where black men seem to think that a big girl does not deserve any love, affection or dates.

[b]interesting point...i'll attack this later


black men put big girls down, but then get up in arms if black women complain about how too many of them are in jail, on the down low, or generally ain't *hit.

Very interesting parallel...so we non- jail, college educated, professional, childless, single black men should 'date' with a big fat woman because it's hard for her to find a man. Let's do the very logical 'flipping of the script'...so should thin, sexy black women deal with men that they do not desire and have relationships with them because there are so many [a majority actually of] fat black women?? I agree with this one, hook me up with Meagan Good, because she owes me a relationship.


maybe everyone needs to take a closer look at their attitudes, huh?

interesting. It's somehow everyone else fault that their are so many undesireable, nearly undateable black women out in the dating arena...not, let's say, those black women fault they are that way...but society's fault. Interesting...very interesting. So let's say that this big fat black woman loses the extra 100+ pounds that 'society' put on her and she re-enters the dating market place...is it also society's fault if she finds a man and gets married??


i was talking to a friend about this topic, you know, how black men are wanting their women to be thin. my friend said that this is possibly a black male backlash because black men feel women make them feel inadequate.

black women are going to college and getting higher paying jobs in larger number than black men (for whatever reason, we all know the theories, that's not my point). so, the only thing that can make a black man feel better is to try and make black women feel inadequate because we may make money like white folks (or the perception is we make more money than them anyway), but many of us don't live up to the white beauty standard. frankly, the idea is that it's the only thing they can hold over our heads as a reason why we shouldn't be loved and appreciated.

So let me get this straight...your friend was elected to be the thinker of the male gender, subgroup black male, and they decided that black men feel inadequate about a lack of educational attainment and have chosen to punish big fat black women by not dating them???...my questions to you is about your friend...what's her name?? and how much does she weigh?? . I posted education stats in a reply to Rowe's rant in the sister spot. the actually numbers for education differences between black men and women were very little and less than 20% of black women have college degrees...which means than over 80% of black women don't. However by comparsion, about 70% of black women are overweight {http://www.obesity.org/subs/fastfacts/Obesity_Minority_Pop.shtml } . So is your friend saying that the majority of black men are refusing to date big fat black women due to the less than 20% of black women that have college degrees?? Could it be that those men simply are not attracted to chunky curves?? Your friend makes about as much sense as George W Bush right now pushing for more troops for the war in Iraq.

though i think it's a bit militant a perspective, and i'm pretty sure i know what the men in the den think of that opinion, i can understand the inclination to think this.
I understand the inclination too...it's called not have the ability to face facts and an addiction to blame others for your issues and problems. Next she'll try to link black men obessions with big, shapely booties with black women's inability to push away from the dinner table. I like this kind of thinking because it shows that this is just one more 'issue' black women have manufactured to blame a black man again....I'll have to add this to the long list which now includes Chloro fluro carbons, ozone layer problems, geo-politics, problems in the west bank and gaza strip, and of course the two parent home that condi rice grew up in that made such a sellout to her people {one parent is better than two as shown earlier in another thread}

Homework time....please review the link below and see if you can find a BIG FAT BLACK MAN in the posted pictures here?? http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/40070883/m/9611076443

I haven't even seen all the pics and i can just about guarantee you that father from the fresh prince is not posted....neither is TD Jakes, or al roker...why aren't there any pictures of men with the Fat Albert body type??


why is it ok for black women to prefer a thin, toned, in shape body type, but not black men?? please explain. Again, I await your reply.


RR


P.S. maybe you should post your comments in the Sista's Spot or in Essence because Black women like to hear nonsense like that, i.e. the Essence Issue with Terrence Howard on the cover has an essay written by a tall brother that prefers fat girls....I wonder why he didnt submit that essay to Cosmo??

Speaking as n=1, this is completely off-base. It has nothing to do with psychological games. African-Americans have higher incidents of type 2 diabetes, hypertension, stroke, and other preventable ailments. There is a big difference between being obese, excessively overweight, rail thin and "thick" (or whatever word you wish to use). To rationalize an unhealthy lifestyle in the manner you described is rediculous.

African-America as a whole needs to exercise more and eat healthier.

Don't talk psycho-babble to justify unhealthy living.

i agree ddouble, there's definitely a difference between thick, thicker and obese. i don't think anyone should be obese either. but i do think black women are naturally more curvy and thicker than white ladies. (side bar- a hispanic co worker got nailed to the wall for suggesting that hispanic women invented the bootylicious butt. lol, sisters had that down waaay before j.lo)

i notice that when black women are athletes, they are thicker than their white counterparts. you're mistaking my opinion for psycho babble. you can then accuse the whole board of talking psycho babble.

raheem, the friend i spoke of is thin, professional, beautiful and yes, single. however, she had a brother sitting there cosigning on everything she was saying. he said he agrees with her theory, and thinks too many brothers are insecure and taking it out on sisters.

i was just making a point that black men want to reference africa when it's convenient. thought i'd do the same. just for kicks. yup, you've got a point with the negative side of the way africans treat their women. frankly, there's alot about african culture i can't get with.

but even if you take away the references to africa, i'm still just making the point that traditionally, men didn't expect their women to look thin like the girls on tv, and in movies.

on another note,

i'm sure there'd be some grumbling if a woman started a thread stating "how to tell your broke a** man to get some ambition" or "how to teach a man to commit". so why so surprised that the women are responding to your thread? you are steady posting stuff in the sister's spot. you're there more than i am. so you should be used to the female perspective by now. . .

quote:

Originally posted by little minx:
i agree ddouble, there's definitely a difference between thick, thicker and obese. i don't think anyone should be obese either. but i do think black women are naturally more curvy and thicker than white ladies. (side bar- a hispanic co worker got nailed to the wall for suggesting that hispanic women invented the bootylicious butt. lol, sisters had that down waaay before j.lo)

i notice that when black women are athletes, they are thicker than their white counterparts. you're mistaking my opinion for psycho babble. you can then accuse the whole board of talking psycho babble. black women have higher levels of Testosterone than white women { http://www.anthropogeny.com/Testosterone%20and%20Socioe...20in%20Mortality.htm }


raheem, the friend i spoke of is thin, professional, beautiful and yes, single. [b]...yet a woman speaking/thinking on behalf of men....just like i thought

however, she had a brother sitting there cosigning on everything she was saying. he said he agrees with her theory, and thinks too many brothers are insecure and taking it out on sisters.
what else can he do, he's outnumbered...plus men never lie do they??

i was just making a point that black men want to reference africa when it's convenient. thought i'd do the same. just for kicks. yup, you've got a point with the negative side of the way africans treat their women. frankly, there's alot about african culture i can't get with.


* wow, could this be an actual agreement between you and i?? you are lucky you are here in the Den...the 'ladies' of the Sista's Spot would have your head for that!!! *



but even if you take away the references to africa, i'm still just making the point that traditionally, men didn't expect their women to look thin like the girls on tv, and in movies.

on another note,

i'm sure there'd be some grumbling if a woman started a thread stating "how to tell your broke a** man to get some ambition" or "how to teach a man to commit".


*please review the numerous threads started by bitter black women...my personal favorites include a sister that gave her phone number to the same guy three times...the thread was titled something like, "men are weird"...you see he was weird because, in her mind, he lost her phone number two times, so she gave it to him again...Yes, she approached the same guy three times, but men are the 'weird' ones.

Another thread not to be missed is the one titled something like, 'are black men scared of a strong educated professional black woman'. In it a 40 something professional believes that her income and professional status keeps men away...and not [as i argued] her age....enjoy!!*

My new, current favorite is the 'I hate men'...i can't wait until more women chime in there


so why so surprised that the women are responding to your thread? you are steady posting stuff in the sister's spot. you're there more than i am. so you should be used to the female perspective by now. . .

[b]i'm not surprised at all....i am surprised that I only get three or four negative emails a month on here. My all-time favorite [from calendar year 2004] had the theme of 'go somewhere and die'. I've been called just about everything but my name [i get positive ones too, i guess 'real' women understand that i'm 'just tellin it like it iz' I plan to stay here for a long long time

raheem,

i just can't get cross with you. i find you endearing sometimes.

let's see:

if black women have more testosterone than other women, there should be no confusion whatsoever about why black women are not as dainty or submissive as white women. that's interesting, i've never heard that testosterone thing before. what are you complaining about then? ofcourse black women would hold out for "the best", and expect a fine man even if they don't measure up to their own standards. . .do black men have more estrogen or progesterone than men of other races?

my friend was making comment on men, you know, the way you like to make comment after comment about women. the way you like to theorize about women and why they do the things they do. you and my friend have alot in common. perhaps in fact you should meet. i'd love to pop the popcorn and watch the sparks fly at the dinner table. . .LOL

and now you're admitting that men lie in significant proportions? we HAVE made progress!

sillyness, we've actually agreed before. don't worry it's not the seventh sign. unlike some people, i don't have a problem with acknowledging merit in a statement someone else makes. i know you're making a funny though, because hanging out at the sisters spot the way you do, you sure enough know the sister's don't always agree with each other. perhaps they just tend to band against what they view is an offensive topic or statement. i'd imagine the men don't always agree either, unless they're banding against what they find is an offensive statement or topic. . cursed human nature!!!

the i hate men thread. . .do you really not understand why women feel that way sometimes? really? after admitting that men lie the way they do, you don't get it? actually that thread hasn't gotten much of a response as of yet. but sometimes it takes a minute for some of these threads to really get going.

there are plenty of bitter black male threads too about how hard it is to be male, because of women, or how tired black men are, how women should go about getting and keeping men according to men, wait. . .most of those are yours aren't they? nevermind. . .it's just that sometimes you and certainly other brothers can also come off as alittle bitter too. can't tell you how many "she'd rather be with a thug", and "she's too fat (this thread for example)" threads and discussions there are here.

go somewhere and die? that's cold. wasn't me was it?

yeah you will be here for a while, you seem to like it. i understand, i've been here longer on and off. i enjoy it here too.

attacking with reverse psychology tactics - this is why I've lost interest in this thread. It keeps turning into "yeah but [insert gender here] do it /can be guilty of/are just as bad as/too.

No matter what facts are presented somebody is going to choose to retaliate with generalizations, overexaggerated hypotheticals, unjustifiable justifications (fat ass women making up excuses to clog up their arteries with lard and telling men to "take me as I am" for one example) and distractor comments. All this bullshit because you don't want to face the facts and admit you need to bring yourself up to standards physically or mental health wise. Fuck this - it's not cute and it's not even entertaining to justify your own laziness, complacency and low self-esteem/low self-worth under the guise of women's lib.

You women win. All black men are losers that should be hated because of their dicks. End of story. Now go back to your "sista's spot" and cry about what black man did you wrong because you LET them over and over again. Leave us alone and make up your own topic in your own forum instead of depending on us to entertain you with this foolishness.

If you honestly gave a damn you wouldn't be bouncing back and forth with all this gender war shit - you'd think of a more positive topic to discuss in a new thread. Who's benefiting from this? No one. You can justify being fat, mentally ill, lonely and anything else by blaming men for your predicament all you want in order to dismiss the responsibility of improving upon yourself all you want - at the end of the day you will be the one going home to an empty house. You can ass around all you want but I'm going to clean my shakras of all this negativity.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Romulus Burnett,

I'd rather be hated for what I am than loved for what I'm not. - Chuck D.

quote:

Originally posted by Romulus Burnett:
{SNIP}
You women win. All black men are losers that should be hated because of their dicks.

At the risk of losing my "sista" card . . . Nooooooo!!!!! Or just let whomever continue "hating"; that leaves more for me.


You can ass around all you want but I'm going to clean my shakras of all this negativity.

romulus

yes, please stop with the negativity. good idea.

mentally ill, fat, lonely in an empty house? i think not.

i'm happily married. and you?

don't be angry or upset or whatever that people don't agree, and most folks are more interested in making their point than listening to someone elses. we've all been guilty of it, it's human nature, and it's part of debate on a discussion board such as this. if you stick to your resolution of staying away from negativity, you'll find that you attract a different kind of discussion. it's all good.

Let's just end this by saying, "Look, I don't care how many times you watch the movie 'Phat Girlz' or 'The Parkers' reruns, there's nothing sexy about morbid obesity. If you are breathing hard when STANDING, that should be a hint and a half to do some type of exercise immediately...every day!!!"

No excuse. Can't blame white people, skinny people, or food commercials. We can't even blame our ancestors for this. The reason why the slaves ate those foods, wasn't because they chose to, it was what massa gave them to keep from starving to death. Even Africans from the continent today, don't eat the stuff that our enslaved foreparents ate. Kenyans aren't fat. In fact, we're fatter than our slave ancestors because they worked i