n/t

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Malik,

"The easiest thing in the world is to heap undeserved scorn on Black folks. And the saddest thing in the world is that half of them will applaud you for it."; http://tiny-seed.com

I do not understand how same sex marriage affects black fatherhood.

In and of itself, it doesn't, and I didn't say it did. It's the arguments being made for the legitimacy of same-sex marriage that affect Black fatherhood. Rather than simply make a claim that marriage is a private choice (and to the extent that marriage represents a civil union, I don't necessarily dispute that), same-sex marriage proponents are asserting that the very concept of traditional family life is inherently oppressive, i.e. "patriarchal and heterosexist." Hence, in "progressive" circles, a family where the biological father is married to the biological mother of a child and is fully engaged in the child's growth and development, has gone from being a moral and survival imperative to being something that's "okay, if you go in for that sort of thing." Any assertion to the contrary is treated as a display of bigotry. Not only is that stance morally and intellectually bankrupt, in the context of the crisis that's afflicting Black males in America, it's suicidal. That stance, taken together with the propaganda about Black males that circulates in progressive circles, makes Black men who take a stand for Black fatherhood targets for the worst kinds of vilification. We're in a war to save the Black family and our Black boys, and same-sex marriage advocates and their allies have made it their business to snipe at our soldiers on the front lines. It can't go down like that.

quote:

Originally posted by Malik:

That stance, taken together with the propaganda about Black males that circulates in progressive circles, makes Black men who take a stance for Black fatherhood targets for the worst kinds of vilification.

What propaganda specifically are you talking about?

Just curious.

Not that I travel in circles that would make this kind of consideration, but I have never heard anyone say that marriage is patriarchal (although I do see where that can be considered a truth) and hetrosexist (what the hell is that?). WHile I support gay marriage, I have never heard these arguments made. If there are people on the fringe of this issue making that argument, well they are free to do so. But I do not hardly take it as an affront to black fatherhood. And I say that as a black father of three.

Black men have done more to marginalize themselves when it comes to fatherhood than anything a bunch of fags and dykes could ever say or do, and they have done this by siring children they will not take care of. Deal with that and then you can verbally attack all the sissies you want to.

I am not against gay marriage.

However, I do seem to have noticed that nowadays it seems easier to find media depictions of gay love ... than heterosexual black love. And heterosexual black love has never been a major item on the media agenda.

I do find that distressing.

Not because I'm against gay love. But because I'm pro black heterosexual love.

Then maybe my eyes are selective?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: HonestBrother,

I'M AN ELITIST TOO.

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

quote:

Originally posted by Malik:

That stance, taken together with the propaganda about Black males that circulates in progressive circles, makes Black men who take a stance for Black fatherhood targets for the worst kinds of vilification.

What propaganda specifically are you talking about?

Just curious.

quote:

And where does this depiction of black hypermasculinity ultimately lead?

Well, in the first instance, it leads to the likkle yewt (aka the wannabe bad bwoy) ostentatiously pimp rollin' down London's Peckham High Street or Johannesburg's shanty towns, bouncing along as if he has dislocated his pelvis, belligerently kissing his teeth in some old granny's face because he thinks his respect has been compromised by her accidental nudge or stray glance. Result: intimidating or risible, depending on your point of view.

On another level, the endemic gun violence in the black community can be directly traced back to the wholly irresponsible image of black masculinity which is fed to us through music.

I will happily wager that Miles Davis Birth of Cool or George Benson's The Guitar Man are not the musical accompaniments of choice in the majority of drive-by shootings in South London (auto-tuning into Classic FM by accident not-with-standing).

Ceaseless macho posturing and the absorption of violent imagery results in the playing out of violence in real life. Art mirrors life, but also life mirrors art.

As a direct result of the hypermasculine lyrics in garage, grime, hip hop or ragga music, we are witnessing a culture of deeply-ingrained self-loathing which is imbuing in black youngsters the notion that to be black means to be physical, violent, homophobic, and uber macho (with at least three women). From Ludacris' I've got hos in different area codes to Beenieman's Nuff Gal, the hypermasculine predominates. Anything else is seen as quite frankly effeminate.

In Search of Notorious PhDs

quote:

Originally posted by Wiz:
Not that I travel in circles that would make this kind of consideration, but I have never heard anyone say that marriage is patriarchal (although I do see where that can be considered a truth) and hetrosexist (what the hell is that?). WHile I support gay marriage, I have never heard these arguments made. If there are people on the fringe of this issue making that argument, well they are free to do so. But I do not hardly take it as an affront to black fatherhood. And I say that as a black father of three.

Black men have done more to marginalize themselves when it comes to fatherhood than anything a bunch of fags and dykes could ever say or do, and they have done this by siring children they will not take care of. Deal with that and then you can verbally attack all the sissies you want to.

First, there's no point in being incivil about the matter. That just distracts from the real issue at hand, and if you think I'm raising this issue because I have some sort of personal animus towards people who are sexually attracted to individuals of the same sex, you're fishing in the wrong pond. Second, it's far from a fringe argument. In fact, it's a basic element of modern feminism and it's increasingly insinuating itself into Black activism. For example

quote:

The Pat Parker Queer Caucus of the Black Radical Congress will present a more comprehensive statement of our principles on the BRC website in the near future. In the meantime, we present a condensed version of our main points:

* Homophobia is a problem in the Black community.

* Homophobic violence in the Black community is Black-on-Black violence and contributes to the collective autodestruction of Black people.

* Homophobia, heterosexism, and heteronormativity are divisive forces within the Black community, as is the denial of their existence.

* All systems of oppression are interlocking and none can be eliminated without the other, hence we cannot minimize the significance of homophobia and heterosexism.

* Instead of problematizing the anger produced by homophobia and heterosexism, we must problematize the incidents that produce such anger and we must recognize that the anger produced by homophobia and heterosexism is similar to the anger produced by racism, sexism, and classism.

Black Radical Congress

Third, dealing with this issue is part and parcel of dealing with the issue of fatherlessness. Same-sex marriage advocates' stance toward the issue has affected the political environment as well as social attitudes within the Black community, and folks who promote initiatives for supporting traditional families not only have to struggle for attention and support, they increasingly have to contend with the charge that not only is Black fatherhood, in and of itself, irrelevant to the core issues confronting Black America, but they also have to deal with the bizarre claim that insisting that Black fathers are essential to the health of Black families and communities is tantamount to bigotry.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Malik,

"The easiest thing in the world is to heap undeserved scorn on Black folks. And the saddest thing in the world is that half of them will applaud you for it."; http://tiny-seed.com

pssst.....pssst. I'm gonna step in this for one moment and put my two cents in just to say a couple of things....first I do believe marriage is a patriarchal...and historical has been an attempt to control women, their offsprings and property....just based on history and MEN being in charge....secondly, while I do not have anything AGAINST gay marriages per se, I do believe that we as a Black family....have a lot of work to do as hetersexuals when it comes to raising our children. I'm not saying that if you're gay, you do not have what it takes to raise children, I'm saying that our history shows as hetersexuals we have ALLOWED massa and his boys to CONTROL what happens to our children: gangs, DRUGS, violence AND dysfuntional behavior and PRISONS-all designed by Massa to make that MONEY! Black men HAVE always been Massa's target-gay or otherwise. And since we know that...WHY oh WHY do we continue to play his game? Gay or not...as a community of blackfolks we SHOULD be on it BETTER than what we are NOW! We are in fact intelligent people...but do we use that intelligence? Hell to the Nawl....we don't. Instead, we give in to it and allow Massa to do what he will. He has been ADAMANT long term about keeping the black family BROKEN. At one while, we couldn't MARRY without his permission. And at one time BLACK men were used as BUCKS...to keep the population of slaves ongoing. This mentality has travelled to what we have NOW. So in defense of Black Fatherhood, I don't think it has ANYTHING to do with whether you're gay or not as much as it has to do a lot with how MASSA has managed to manipulate us to the point that we are HERE....struggling to raise our children and not realize that for some black men they do not and has NEVER had the tools to do it in the first place. Just like Massa ordered. People don't believe that slavery, jim crow and lynchings have anything to do with how fatherhood is seen presently....I totally disagree. We as a people have to CHANGE how we view each other and to understand that we have been MASSA's target for over 400 years...and it's not gonna ever stop until WE realize that we have a lot of work to do in terms of our men as fathers as well as with our women as MOTHERS cuz really.... for a lot us we never had that opportunity to be parents in the real sense of the word.....cuz it's been TOO many distractions and haphazards that have continuously pulled many of us away. I'm just sayin'. Okay....I'm stepping out

I am not being less than civil about this, I just do not see a valid connection between the two issues, which I see as pretty exclusive of each other.

HB, you are right, media depictions of a black man loving anyone are rare.

Koco, while I do not doubt that we are still impacted in a very negative manner by the legacy of our enslavement, there are some issues we need to own, if for no other reason than the benefit of ownership. Our current dearth of fatherless children is one of them. It is one thing to be prevented from being a father, it is something else all together to choose to not be a father, especially when you have opted to sire a child.

That goes without saying. Of course we have things we have to own up to. Without a doubt. I'm just saying that in order to move forward we have to reveal the CAUSE to treat the symptoms that reflect the behavior and legacy of black parenthood....first. Many of us DON'T even talk about the woes that plague our community. And one of 'em is this whole relationship among some black men in terms of fatherhood. The Buck mentality is prevelant in our community and describes CLEARLY how many black men can inpregnate a woman and move on...without any thought to the child left behind. That's been our legacy in many black neighborhoods across this country. It's a SLAVE behavior fast forwarded into today's world. We have to address this behavior first. And seriously. Many of our men have traditionally been ABSENT from their children. Why? We need to answer this QUESTION if we are to own up to anything in terms of our responsibility to each other as human beings and especially as parents to our children...we need to own up to WHY this type of dysfunctioning behavior keeps reoccuring in our community.. cuz it is this behavior that is the HEART to many of our past and existing problems. BUT! JMHO...is all.

quote:

Originally posted by Wiz:
I am not being less than civil about this, I just do not see a valid connection between the two issues, which I see as pretty exclusive of each other.

I was referring to your use of pejoratives. That's not necessary. And I understand your perspective. I would offer that if you do a little research on the issue of heterosexism and the nuclear family, you may understand where I'm coming from. One place you could start is here:

Gay Marriage: An American and Feminist Dilemma

quote:

Originally posted by Kocolicious:
That goes without saying. Of course we have things we have to own up to. Without a doubt. I'm just saying that in order to move forward we have to reveal the CAUSE to treat the symptoms that reflect the behavior and legacy of black parenthood....first. Many of us DON'T even talk about the woes that plague our community. And one of 'em is this whole relationship among some black men in terms of fatherhood. The Buck mentality is prevelant in our community and describes CLEARLY how many black men can inpregnate a woman and move on...without any thought to the child left behind. That's been our legacy in many black neighborhoods across this country. It's a SLAVE behavior fast forwarded into today's world. We have to address this behavior first. And seriously. Many of our men have traditionally been ABSENT from their children. Why? We need to answer this QUESTION if we are to own up to anything in terms of our responsibility to each other as human beings and especially as parents to our children...we need to own up to WHY this type of dysfunctioning behavior keeps reoccuring in our community.. cuz it is this behavior that is the HEART to many of our past and existing problems. BUT! JMHO...is all.

I don't buy any of that "cultural pathology" BS, whether it's leftists talking about "Black male hypermasculinity", conservatives talking about "oppositional culture", or so-called Black radicals talking about the "slave mentality". That's just three different ways of sayin' niggas ain't shit.

This intra-racial classist mindset that so many Black folks promote is every bit as anti-Black as white supremacy. Let's drop the dumb rhetoric and deal with what's really real. Although undoubtedly some men are irresponsible (and that's not a function of their race), the roots of the problem are institutional, not attitudinal:

quote:

As shown by research reviewed in this volume, especially the Parent's Fair Share study (Martinez and Miller 2000), poor young black men who are only sporadically employed and have criminal records actually want to have a good job and want to be good fathers--even if they rarely see their children. The discrepancy between values and behavior is a pattern seen frequently among low-income families (and even, it is rumored, among wealthier families). Mothers on welfare tell interviewers they want to work; mothers and fathers who have had children outside marriage say they want to be married; poor fathers say they want to work and support their families.

Good news, especially about black men, is to be savored. That even absent fathers want to work and support their children is encouraging. Helping them would be much more difficult if poor fathers were as uncaring as they are often portrayed. They want to be helped; policymakers want to help them; professionals and volunteers want to help them. Under these circumstances, progress is possible.

Black Males Left Behind

Even absentee fathers want to be good fathers. But that's hard to do if you don't have any real opportunity to acquire marketable skills, steady work, and effective mentorship from an experienced and mature Black male. Those are the issues we have to confront, not some fatuous theory of Black pathology.

quote:

Originally posted by Malik:

By allowing the proponents of same-sex marriage to infiltrate the movement for Black uplift, to appropriate its language, and to set its agenda, not only are we debasing ourselves, we are courting disaster.

How are the proponents for same sex marriage problematic for Black Fatherhood? If two people love each other and wish to have their bond legally recognized, does this stop Black men from behaving as fathers to their children?

quote:

modern feminism and it's increasingly insinuating itself into Black activism. For example

Oh, it's the feminism is destroying the Black man argument redux...

quote:

Originally posted by Wiz:
I do not understand how same sex marriage affects black fatherhood.

As a father of 2 boys (one biological, one not) the opinions of those in same sex marriages have no impact on me and mine, nor anyone in my circle in general and specifically as it relates to being fathers. What does impact me and mine and my circle is when brothers wont be responsible for the children they create, be responsible to the woman they made that pact with and be responsible to the community at large.

Brotha Malik....you don't have to buy it. It is what it is. We can talk all this "intellectual jargon" and go back and forth BUT! the bottom line is there are FAR too many young brothas [and older ones too] who have NO PROBLEM abandoning their children without feeling GULITY or responsible. Many of 'em put that on the woman's shoulders...saying SHE is to suppose to handle her business. Where I stand....that's THAT SLAVE "BUCK" MENTALITY...where males go to plantation to plantation and "plant" their seeds [OR...drop their seeds] for MASSA without ANY thought or concern. Then...when they get OLD and unable to do the things they used to in their YOUTH....many of 'em slither [or try to] into the lives of their unsuspecting children and EXPECT them to welcome them with OPEN ARMS. This have occurred soooooo much [with the govt providing monetary care for abandoned children], that FINALLY the welfare system in MANY states passed legistation and began attaching jail time and monetary penalties for those men who failed to pay child support. PRIOR TO THAT, for several years....men [including white men] got away with NOT taking care of their children financially....Of course there are/were some women who failed to provide or be there for their children...BUT in the long run...there are more MEN than women who felt no need to take care of their children. Why? Some men have indicated that their fathers were not in the home for one reason or another and felt because of that they didn't KNOW how to be a father to their children-or father WAS in the home but was not an active participant in their development-or may have said to them "you're not my kid" without knowing FOR A FACT whether or not what they assumed was true. And since DNA makes it easy to determine paternity...many cannot say to the woman "oh how do I know it's mine?" Soooo for me, it is a subconscious resistance [or the ongoing effects of the slave "buck" conditioning passed on traditionally] as to why many BLACK MEN do not FEEL it's their obligation to care for their children....REGARDLESS if they are with the MOTHER or not. Why? I know [MANY] male mammals in the animal kingdom pratice this but it is NOT in their natural/instinctive ability to process or participate in the skills of parenthood. However, BLACK men are human beings WITH the ABILITY to PARTICIPATE in parenthood....and yet....many do not. My question again is....WHY? You have to look at the ROOT of a behavior pattern to determine what makes a person do this. I stand by what I said earlier. And because some BLACK men do not like to talk about things that cause them to behave dysfunctionally when it comes to THEIR children...that within itself holds some truth as to why we in the Black community are where we are presently in terms of dual parenting. But! JMHO....is all. BTW: This is NOT Black or cultural "pathology"....this is REAL life in America. And if some Black men don't want this RESPONSIBLITY of parenthood...I suggest the use of protection or WAIT until one's married before "procreating"....and then... problem solved...I'm just sayin'

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kocolicious,

OK, so let me get this straight...

Same sex marriage works against the African/Black family in Amerikkka, but simultaneously the legacy of slavery has nothing to do with some of our mentalities?

I don't think so...

quote:

the roots of the problem are institutional, not attitudinal:

Slavery wasn't an 'institution' that had lasting effects, not only on the former enslaved but the 'institutions' today?

I find it interesting that our brothers and sisters on the continent, although largely desperately impoverished(institutionally facing a harsher reality than here) via the legacy of colonialism, do not have the same 'familial issues' that we have here... I wonder what happened here to us that didn't happen there to them? We are the same genetically...

Like Koco said... "It is what it is."

And I would like to more clearly understand, from your point of view. I have mine but it does seem there is never a meeting of the minds here. On this forum. Of all peoples we should seek unity. Instead, the horrible way in which we demean, belittle, degrade...each other?