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A BLACK MATHEMATICIAN TALKS ABOUT RACE
by PHILIP EMEAGWALI
Chicago. June 16, 2001

I am normally introduced either as a mathematician or a computer scientist. But one surprising and little known fact about me is that I am also a dancer. Three years ago, I studied African dance with the Sankofa Dance Theater of Baltimore. The reason I became interested in African dance is that I found the drumming and music to be both therapeutic and invigorating. Many mathematicians, myself included, believe that music inspires their creativity and helps them solve mathematical problems. Similarly, mathematics can help you become a better musician. In fact, many musicians believe that music and mathematics have a lot in common. In an interview, Bob Dylan said that his "songs are all mathematical songs." Someone once described dancers as poets in motion. I believe that dancers are mathematicians in motion. My dance instructor always closes each lesson by explaining the cultural and historical significance of each dance. He explained to me that Sankofa is the name of a fabled African bird whose head is always turned backwards. The origin of the word is from the Akan language of Ghana, west African. "Sankofa" means "Go back and retrieve." In a symbolic sense, the Sankofa bird is "facing the past." It symbolizes the African adage "Always remember the past for therein lies the future..." In the spirit of Sankofa, I will like to begin by reflecting on the past to understand when, where and how the intellectual foundation for the Digital Age was laid. To understand where we are or where we are going or what directions we should take require that we review where we have been.

AFRICAN ORIGIN OF MATHEMATICS
I will begin by telling you a short story. Twenty years ago, I met a famous white mathematician who told me that Africans did not make any significant contributions to mathematical knowledge. When I told him that I disagreed with him, he challenged me to name some Africans who made important contributions to mathematics. "Sure," I said. "But I want you to first name some Europeans who made contributions to mathematics." "Fibonacci is the greatest mathematician of the Middle Ages," he quickly replied.
"Is Fibonacci European or African?" I asked him. "Fibonacci is European," he answered.
"No." I corrected him. "Fibonacci was born, raised and educated in Africa.
When he emigrated to Pisa (Italy) , he became famous for being the first to solve a set of difficult mathematical challenges compiled by Emperor Frederick II. Fibonacci is most known for book, Liber Abaci (Latin for "The Book of the Abacus"). The Book of the Abacus was a hefty 15-chapter 459-page tome. During the Middle Ages, Book of the Abacus was the most widely used mathematics textbook in Europe. Also, Fibonacci died 800 years ago. We do not have a true portrait of any person from that era. Therefore, we do not know if Fibonnaci is an African or European."
In his book "Liber Abaci," Fibonacci wrote that he was taught by African mathematicians. Therefore, his African teachers had to be as good as their student Fibonacci. In a symbolic sense, Fibonacci is African. In fact, Fibonacci acknowledged that he stood on the shoulders of African mathematicians.
In his classic book Liber Abaci, Fibonacci wrote:
"All that was studied in Egypt, in Syria, in Greece, I investigated very carefully. I wanted to write a book of 15-chapters with nothing left out and this I did so that the science might be easily understood and the Latin people should no longer be deprived of it."
The mathematician was surprised by my answer. Again, I asked him to name another famous white mathematician. "Euclid," he replied. "Euclid," he explained, "is the most influential mathematician of all times. Euclid's book, 'The Elements,' is the second most reprinted book in history. It is second only to the Bible."
"Is Euclid European or African?" I asked the white mathematician. "Euclid is European," he answered.
"How do you know Euclid is European?" I asked him. "I saw his photo," was his answer.
"The photo of Euclid you saw is fictitious," I corrected him. "Euclid died 2,300 years ago, in Africa. We do not have any true photograph of any person that lived before Jesus Christ."
As far as we know, Euclid never traveled outside Africa. Therefore, we should assume that he is an African.
Again, he was shocked by my answer. Then I finally asked him to name a few more famous white mathematicians who lived before Euclid.
"The authors of the Moscow, Berlin and Rhind papyri," he answered. These papyri are the oldest mathematics textbooks in existence.
"Are the authors of those three papyri European or African?" I queried.
"There are all Europeans," was his response. Again, I told him that he was wrong.
The Moscow papyrus was excavated in Africa. It was renamed after the city of Moscow.
The Berlin papyrus was excavated in Africa. It was renamed after the city of Berlin.
The Rhind papyrus was excavated in Africa. It was written by an African named "Ahmes" but it was renamed the "Rhind Papyrus."
Ladies and gentlemen, the scientific tradition is to name a book, a discovery or an invention after the author, discover or inventor.
Why then was the "Ahmes" papyrus renamed after Alexander Rhind, a Scottish traveler that purchased it in Africa?
Why then was the oldest mathematical work written by an African mathematician renamed after a European traveler who is not even a mathematician?
Why then was the most important mathematical document excavated in Africa renamed after the European cities of Berlin and Moscow?
The French emperor, Napoleon, might have the answer to this question. "What is history?," Napoleon asked.
"History is nothing but a lie agreed upon!," he answered his own question.
One such lie agreed upon by historians of European ancestry is that Africans are intellectually inferior to Europeans. Therefore, Euclid, the world's greatest mathematician, must be European.
Thomas Jefferson, the third president of the United States, was one of the most learned man of his time. Jefferson argued that it will be impossible for an African to understand the work of Euclid.
In his book "Notes on the State of Virginia" that was published in 1781, Jefferson wrote:
"Comparing them by their faculties of memory, reason, and imagination, it appears to me that in memory they are equal to the whites; in reason much inferior, as I think one could scarcely be found capable of tracing and comprehending the investigations of Euclid: and that in imagination they are dull, tasteless and anomalous."
Thomas Jefferson's view was widely held by prior and later United States presidents.
For example, Abraham Lincoln, who allegedly freed the slaves wrote:
"I agree with Judge Douglas that he (Negroes) is not my equal in many respects, certainly not in color, and perhaps not in moral or intellectual endowment. "
Again, we do not have a true photograph or portrait of Fibonacci, Euclid and other great mathematicians that were born, raised and educated in Africa. I agree with the respected historian, George Sarton, who wrote:
"I do not believe there is a single ancient scientist of whose lineaments we have any definite knowledge; thus to publish "portraits" of Hippocrates, Aristotle or Euclid is, until further notice, stupid and wicked."
Then and now, most people who were born in Africa were considered to be negroes. I believe that Fibonacci, Euclid and Ahmes were African by birth and heritage. The significance of the latter statement is that Africans laid the foundation to what we now call modern mathematics and computer science.
Sir Isaac Newton, the greatest physicist of all time, acknowledged the contributions from Africa.
Every mathematician knows that mathematics cannot develop in a vacuum: a new theorem is based on known theorems, lemmas and axioms. Ahmes wrote that the mathematical knowledge contained in his Papyrus had been known for 200 years before his era.

THE DIGITAL AGE
I was asked to speak about "Prospering in the Digital Age." The reason I digressed is that without digital computers, we would not have entered the Digital Age. The abacus is the oldest computing equipment and the forerunner of all digital computers. Again, the first computing textbook was published in Africa. It was a description of computing techniques developed in Africa by Africans. It was called "Liber Abaci," which is Latin for "The Book of Abacus." I wanted to, first, return to mathematics and computing techniques developed in Africa by Africans so that we can understand and appreciate how Africans laid the intellectual foundation to what we now call the Digital Age. I am doing this, not to prove that Africans contributed more than Europeans, or vice versa. I just wanted us re-capture some of what was excluded in your history books. During the era of Fibonacci, Euclid and Ahmes, Africa led the world in technology. If Africa once led the world, it can lead the world in the future again.

DIGITIZATION
There are 30 billion embedded digital processors worldwide. Therefore, to state that the Digital Age has arrived will be repeating the obvious. Our letters are digital. Our conversations are digital. Our books are becoming digital. The human beings of the future will be digital. We will be replaced by robots, androids and cyborgs. I will explain how we will become digital in the later part of my talk. Digital is now a metaphor for most things. Information is now reduced to bits. The word bit is an acronym for binary digits. That is, either "zero" or "one." Your e-book will be reduced to "zero" or "one." Your telephone conversation will be reduced to "zero" or "one." Your television shows will be reduced to "zero" or "one." Metaphorically speaking, all things digital are either "on" or "off." We the people of African descent will be either "on" to the Digital Age or "off" to the dark Industrial Age. Those nations that are "on" will become more affluent and those that are "off" will remain poor.

DIGITAL DIVIDE
The gap between people and nations that have or lack access to computers and Internet is called the "digital divide." I prefer the term "knowledge divide." Computers and Internet are merely tools and a means to the end. Knowledge and Information is the end. The goal is to bridge the "knowledge divide" between people of African and European descent. We do not want to create a "knowledge apartheid" in which children from underdeveloped nations will be eating the crumbs from the dinner table of the digital age. The Information Age is an era in which intellectual capital is more important than financial and natural resources. Intellectual capital is the engine that drives economic growth. Knowledge is more important than food. There is an old saying: "Give someone a fish to eat today and you must give him a fish tomorrow. Teach someone to fish, and he can always have food." Poverty cannot be reduced by giving fish to the poor. It can be reduced by teaching the poor how to fish. It can be reduced by bridging the "knowledge divide."

THE PARADOX OF AFRICA
The knowledge divide has create unusual paradoxes in Africa. The Catholic Church discourages the use of birth control in Africa, without explaining to us how the average African family can feed seven children on ten dollars a month income. South Africa spends 10 percent of her budget to build an army to defend her from her weaker neighbors, but spends 1 percent to defend her from HIV virus will eventually kill one in four adults. Nigeria has learned how to exploit her natural resources, but not how to develop her human resources.

RACISM IN HIGH-TECH
One of my frequently most asked question is: "Is it more difficult for Africans and African-Americans to become dot.com millionaire?" My answer is yes. I believe that the obstacles we encounter in the field of education is also encountered in the field of business. First, a person of African descent who wants to succeed in this field will improve her chances by moving to Silicon Valley. That is where most venture capitalists live and operate from. Second, she may need to raise about $20 million dollars from white venture capitalists and hire 100 talented people. The fact is that white venture capitalists are not comfortable funding a project headed by a black person. I know of cases where a black entrepreneur is the brain behind a company but he was forced to step aside and allow a less qualified white male to head the company. There are thousands of dot.com companies in Silicon Valley but I can count the number headed by women or African-Americans on my fingers. Finally, a successful African-American in high-tech will be pressured to quit as she becomes more successful. I will give one example. Do you know that Network Solutions, the company that assigns US domain names was originally owned by an African-American. As soon as the Internet took off, he was forced to sell Network Solutions for about $4 million dollars. Last year he told Emerge magazine that the company that he sold for $4 million is now worth more than a billion dollars! The lesson: The United States courts and congress will not allow a black business person to have the monopolistic control that Bill Gates now has.
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Black History:
Lost, Stolen or Strayed

Transcript of Black History Month keynote lecture delivered by Emeagwali. Part 1 was delivered at Arizona State University West, Phoenix, on February 17, 2003. Part 2 will be delivered in February 2004. The third lecture entitled "To Be Young, Gifted and Black" will also be available in 2004 BHM.

About the Speaker
Book the Speaker

Thank you for the pleasant introduction.

When I was ten years old, living in Africa, my father posed the following question to me:

"The story or the warrior, which is mightier?"

"The warrior!" I replied."

My father shook his head in disagreement.

"The story. The story is mightier than the warrior," he said to me.

"How can that be?" I asked him.

"The story lives on long after the warrior has died," he explained.

This month is Black History Month. We celebrate it by telling stories of the contributions of black Americans to America.

Also, today is President's Day. We celebrate it by telling stories of the contributions of American presidents to America.

We tell stories about Thomas Jefferson, the third president of the United States. We tell how Jefferson coined the phrase "All men are created equal." A phrase written in the Declaration of Independence.

Jefferson wrote, "All men are created equal." But he meant, "All white men are created equal."

Jefferson did not believe that white women are equal to white men. He did not believe that black men are equal to white men. Not much has changed two centuries later. As they say, the more things change, the more they remain the same.

In his one and only published book, called "Notes on Virginia," Jefferson explained why white men are intellectually superior to black men. Jefferson wrote that it would be impossible for a black person to understand the mathematical formula in Euclid's famous book called "The Elements."


Jefferson wrote in his book "Notes on Virginia" that Africans are intellectually inferior and cannot understand mathematics.

Euclid wrote his book, called the "The Elements," 2,300 years ago. It is the second most reprinted book in history. It is second only to the Bible. And Euclid is, perhaps, the world's greatest mathematician of all time.

To the ancients, Euclid's Elements was a notoriously difficult textbook. The story is told about a discouraged student that asked Euclid:

"What shall I profit by learning these difficult things?"

Euclid, visibly angered, said to his assistant:

"Give this boy a penny, since he must make a profit out of what he learns."

Because The Elements was notoriously difficult to understand, Jefferson wrote that it would be difficult for a black person to understand the work of Euclid.

He believed that only people of European ancestry could understand the subject of Geometry.

As an African mathematician, I studied and understood geometry. There was nothing in my experience that could lead me to believe that whites have greater mathematical aptitude than people of other races. Yet, that stereotype persists among white mathematicians.

While researching the origins of the Euclid's work, I was surprised when I learned that Euclid never even traveled outside Africa.

"How could Euclid be Greek, if he was born, raised and educated in Africa?" I asked.

It occurred to me that Euclid, the greatest mathematician of all time, was neither Greek nor white. It occurred to me that he was probably black and full-blooded Negro.

I found the best explanation in a book on "History of Mathematics." The author explained that ancient Egypt was not in Africa. "Egypt was part of Greece," he added.

I was curious about how Euclid looked in person. As I probed further, I discovered a widely circulating photo of Euclid. It was the photo of white male that seems to be 90 years old.

I asked: "Is this a true portrait of Euclid?"

Upon reflection, I realized that it was a fictitious portrait. It was drawn 2,000 years after Euclid died.

Euclid died 2,300 years ago in Africa. And we do not have any true portrait of any person that lived before Jesus Christ. We do not have any true portrait of any person that lived even 500 years.

I later learned that many Greek scientists of ancient times were born, raised and educated in Africa. And I still wonder if those Greek scientists were actually black Africans.


This false portrait of Euclid as a white male reinforced Jefferson's views that mathematics could only be comprehended by whites. Since there is no proof that Euclid ever travelled outside Africa it makes sense to assume that he is full-blooded Negro.



Our history books are full of erroneous statements.

Black History Month is a period for us to re-examine the erroneous statements in our history books.

A period for us to challenge these erroneous statements in our history books.

A period for us to teach our children the truth. Teach them that Euclid was not Greek. That he was not white. That was born, raised, educated and worked in Africa. That he is African.

A period for us to acknowledge that science is the gift of ancient Africa to our modern world.

If Euclid never traveled outside Africa, we should assume that he is African. Which raises the profound question:

If Euclid is African, then Thomas Jefferson must be wrong when he argued that an African couldn't understand the work of Euclid?

Euclid was the warrior and Thomas Jefferson was the storyteller.

As my father taught me, the story is mightier than the warrior.

The story lives on long after the warrior has died.

Thomas Jefferson's belief that an African cannot understand the subject of geometry lives on 200 years after Jefferson has died. It lives on in the belief that whites make better mathematicians than blacks. It lives on among historians of science who are reluctant to acknowledge the contributions of Africans to mathematical knowledge.

When I was young, I believed that the warrior is mightier than the story. I did not understand that the pen is mightier than the sword.

As a young man, I believed history is about the truth.

As an older man, I learned that history is both truth and illusion.

I learned that the value of my scientific discovery is in the perception of those evaluating it.

I learned that the black student considers me to be his role model.

I learned that the up and coming white scientist is reluctant to accept me as his role model.

I learned that the established white scientist considers me to be an anomaly. Considers me to be a "freak of nature." Considers me to be the anti-Christ. Considers me to be a scientific vampire that sucks on the white race. Visualizes me as a monster with couple of horns on his head.

I learned that what I am is not as important as what I am to you.

I learned that when you ask me: "Who Are You?" that you really meant "Who Am I?"

I learned that you are searching for yourself in me.

Twelve years ago, a magazine hired a white man to prepare an illustration of a supercomputer wizard riding an ox. I was supposed to be the supercomputer wizard. But the white illustrator, who knew that I am black, portrayed me as a white person in his published illustration.

I learned that the white illustrator was searching for himself in me.



The first draft of a portrait that depicted Emeagwali as a supercomputer wizard driving a carriage powered by thousands of chickens (a metaphor for his 65,000 weak processors that performed the world's fastest computation). The "Negro Emeagwali" (shown in this illustration) was rejected and replaced with a "Caucasian Emeagwali" (shown below).


A "whitened" Caucasian portrait of Emeagwali was acceptable and widely published. One illustrator argued that Emeagwali has a trace of Caucasian blood and said that he could see the "Caucasian look" in his face.

Five hundred years ago, Leonardo da Vinci was commissioned to paint his masterpiece "The Lord's Supper." Before the Renaissance period, many paintings of the Madonna depicted a black woman. The infant God or Christ-child was depicted as black. But Leonardo da Vinci was searching for himself in Jesus Christ. He re-depicted Jesus Christ as white.

The Bible did not tell us what Jesus looked like. But we know that he lived in the Middle East or an eastern extension of Africa. We know that the Hebrews sojourned into Egypt and Africa. We know that Moses had a Cushite (Ethiopian) wife. When we put the facts together, we know that Jesus likely looked like a dark-skinned Palestinian, Yemenite or Egyptian.


CHrist on a Roman Coin

Michelangelo used his family to pose for Jesus Christ. Michelangelo was searching for himself in Jesus Christ. During the Renaissance, the mother of Christ became a white woman.

I learned that King James wrote the Bible the way he believed it was supposed to be written.

I was trained by white mathematicians. I read books about History of Mathematics written by white authors. I learned in schools controlled and dominated by Eurocentric thoughts.

Considering where I came from, it was heresy to suggest that Euclid was African. Psychologist named this phenomenon "cognitive dissonance." I call it "The Fear of the Truth." We are afraid of the truth that the real Jesus Christ is dark-skinned. We are afraid of the truth that the real Euclid was an African and a full-blooded Negro.

I learned that Euclid was portrayed as a European to instill a sense of pride in white students. To embed a feeling of intellectual supremacy into their collective subconscious. I learned that European mathematicians were searching for themselves in Euclid.

I learned that Africans are the pioneers in many other fields of study.

I learned that the modern chemist is not aware that the word "chemistry" meant "black man's science."

I learned that the word chemistry was derived from the word "Kemet." And that Kemet is the ancient name for the land we now call Egypt. And that Kemet translates as "land of the blacks." And that "chemistry" means "black man's science."

Yet the story of black people's contribution to the science of chemistry is not included in chemistry textbooks. As my father taught me, the story is greater than the warrior.

We Africans have to tell our story. We underestimate the power of the story.

"What happened to the black people of Kemet," the traveler asked the old man.

"For legend had it that the people of Kemet were black? What happened?"

"Ah," wailed the old man, "they lost their history and they died."

Isaac Asimov is the author of more than 500 books. One of his books called "Biographical Encyclopedia of Science," is standard reference in many libraries.


Isaac Asimov, the most prolific science writer, acknowledges that mathematics, science and technology are the gift of ancient Africans to our modern world.



The Encyclopedia of Science:

Acknowledges that an African named Imhotep is the Father of Medicine.

It acknowledges that an African is the Father of Architecture.

It acknowledges that an African is the first scientist in recorded history.

It acknowledges that the earliest Greek scientists were educated in Africa by Africans. That they lived and worked in Africa. That they were even born in Africa.

If the earliest Greek scientists lived in Africa, then it leads to the profound conclusion that Greece is not the birthplace of Western civilization. It leads to more logical conclusion that Africa is the birthplace of civilization.

The oldest mathematics textbooks are called the Rhind, Moscow and Berlin papyri.


The ancient papyri are our primary source of information about the mathematics of Nile Valley civilization. A page from Ahmes papyrus which is about one foot tall and 18 feet long. This book was renamed "Rhind Papyrus."

The Rhind Papyrus was not written by Alexander Rhind --- the Scottish traveler that purchased it. It was written 4,000 years ago by an African named Ahmes. But it was renamed after a non-mathematician that purchased it.

The Moscow Papyrus was not excavated in Moscow. It was excavated in Africa. But it was renamed after the city of Moscow.

The Berlin Papyrus was not excavated in Berlin. It was excavated in Africa. But it was renamed after the city of Berlin.

Ladies and gentlemen, we should give credit where credit is due. Scholars name a book after its author. Scientists name a discovery after the discoverer. And technologists name an invention after the inventor.

Why then were African textbooks Europeanized by naming them after European cities and persons? The reason is that the story is mightier than the warrior. Ancient Africans were the ancient warriors and modern Europeans are the modern storytellers.


A digital facial reconstruction of a mummy believed to be Queen Nefertiti. The British forensic experts that performed this reconstruction were astonished when the image of a black woman emerged on their computer screen! (Image courtesy of USA Today, August 13, 2003)



History is called "his story."

It is a story told from the perspective of the storyteller. From the bias of the storyteller. With the prejudice of the storyteller.

"What is history?" asked Napoleon, the conquered French emperor.

"History is nothing but a lie agreed upon!" Napoleon answered.

Carter Woodson is the name of the historian that founded Negro History Week in 1926. Woodson wrote:


"When you control a man's thinking, you do not have to worry about his actions."

"You do not have to tell him not to stand here or go yonder. He will find his (proper place) and will stay in it.

You do not need to send him to the back door. He will go without being told.

In fact, if there is no back door, he will cut one for his special benefit. His education makes it necessary," said Woodson who was the son of former slaves.

Someone asked me: "Why don't we have a White History Month?"

"Every month is White History Month." I explained to him.

However, our goal is to make every month Black History Month. Our goal is to include black history into American history. And to include African history into world history.

African history is a search for answers to profound questions. Universal questions such as:

Who are we? Where have we been? And how did we get here?

History is the compass that tells us who we are, where we have been, and where we are going.

We now know that Africa is the birthplace of humanity. It is the Motherland of all people: black or white.

We should teach our children that:

Science is the gift of ancient Africa to our modern world.

Finally, and most importantly, we should remind them that

Africans were the carriers of light.

Africans were not waiting in darkness for others to bring light to them.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to share my thoughts with you tonight.



Emeagwali

Emeagwali won the 1989 Gordon Bell Prize, which has been called "supercomputing's Nobel Prize," for inventing a formula that allows computers to perform their fastest computations - a discovery that inspired the reinvention of supercomputers. He was extolled by then U.S. President Bill Clinton as "one of the great minds of the Information Age" and described by CNN as "a Father of the Internet;" and is the most searched-for scientist on the Internet.
For more, see www.emeagwali.com

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Oshun Auset,

Egungun, Egungun ni t'aiye ati jo!
Ancestos, Ancestors come to earth and dance!

"I'm sick of the war and the civilization that created it. Let's look to our dreams, and the magical; to the creations of the so-called primitive peoples for new inspirations."
- Jaques Vache and Andre Breton

"Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone."
-John Maynard

"You know that in our country there were even matriarchal societies where women were the most important element. On the Bijagos islands they had queens. They were not queens because they were the daughters of kings. They had queens succeeding queens. The religious leaders were women too..."
-- Amilcar Cabral, Return to the Source, 1973

Great piece. It gives me rebuttal evidence for a discussion on a "racialist" site that I visit from time to time.

Keep it coming!

You may want to explore his link, it has many good articles...

http://www.emeagwali.com/index.shtml

I edited the origional post to add the pictoral evidence...Hope that gives you more amo...

Locked and loaded.

I hit the site with much of the info (without pictures or citations) that you've so graciously supplied; their response ... "It's all a lie."

Without responding, I provided the pictures and citations.

Their response, "Well, the exception doesn't disprove the rule." [Can you believe that? I guess logic escapes them.]

My response was simply, "I guess you're right. Lies are being told. Please google Johann Joachim Winckelmann."

The moderator purged the whole thread.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
Locked and loaded.

I hit the site with much of the info (without pictures or citations) that you've so graciously supplied; their response ... "It's all a lie."

Without responding, I provided the pictures and citations.

Their response, "Well, the exception doesn't disprove the rule." [Can you believe that? I guess logic escapes them.]

---

Logic is rejected by them because they have to keep up the lies of his-story so the historical and current exploitation and oppresssion they support and encourage has a reason to continue...

quote:

---

The moderator purged the whole thread.

---

Sounds like what they did with our-story...Not much has changed(in the mentality of some) I see...No bother...It's more important that we know this information...

Googling Winckelmann will point to his intellectual dishonesty.

For all his ingenious insight, Winckelmann's view of the antique arts was somewhat one-sided and biased, as characterized by his often-quoted dictum on the "noble simplicity and quiet grandeur" of Greek sculpture. Besides, his observations derived almost entirely from later Hellenistic works or Roman copies of Greek masterpieces. The world of Greek art, like the land of Greece itself, remained for him always an ideal more of the mind than of the eye.

I agree that it is much more important that we know than that 'they' know.

I spend zero time arguing, or trying to convince any person who is not African American, or of African ancestry, about the validity of African civilizations.

First' I am not expert enough to do my ancestry justice.

Second" They don't deserve my energy to fight their fixed opinion.

Third: They don't care.

However, I understand the temptation.

PEACE

Jim Chester

This all boils down to people believing what they want to hear.

I do not believe that any genetic aspect of a person on the scale of ethnic group precludes understanding of science, math, or the like. The idea that "primitive" cultures could not understand science was mistakenly attributed to the "race" of the people but now we know this is not the case.

The origin of mathematics is of no great importance to me. It matters not what skin color or genetic makeup the first person was who "discovered" mathematics.

It is, however, inconceivable that the First Man, Adam, knew nothing about math. Adam was the Father of all the living, both black and white (and all shades in between). He was neither "black" nor "white" and was probably what people might consider an amalgamation of all possible traits in the heterozygous position. It is impossible to determine if he first lived in Africa or anywhere else, because that world was destroyed in the flood and many places which were formerly underwater are now dry land, and vice-versa. Therefore, it is nonsensical in both a genetic and locational sense, to insist that Mathematics initially were discovered by "Africans". I have no vested interest in claiming that either "blacks" or "whites" originated anything. I follow where the evidence and records lead. One should not use what they like to hear in order to gain "self-esteem" and consider it the only other option. You guys are forgetting "option #3".

The truth about what people could "understand" lies not with their genes (barring some catastrophic genetic problem interfering with brain development, for instance Down's Syndrome or some other such random, non-racial-specific situation), but with their religion. As my old friend Dr. John Mackay told me, "If you get the wrong kind of religion, you get the wrong kind of science." Animistic beliefs as well as any belief system that views the whole of Nature as "divine" will tend to discourage scientific discovery, depending on the taboos associated with various deities associated with the different aspects of nature. If doing things to water offends the Water god, or digging in the ground offends the Earth god, then naturally people aren't going to investigate water or earth, as things considered "divine" or having divine nature or protection are beyond the reach of scientific inquiry.

Let me give you a "f'rinstance": On Vancouver Island, there are the Horne Lake caves. These caves are now a part of a Park, and people go in them. But the local First Nations ("Indians") did not go in these caves, for they believed an evil spirit resided therein. Why did they believe this? Because of the cold wind that flows out of the caves (especially the deepest one)! This is because they believe that spirits reside EVERYWHERE in nature. But scientists could tell you why cold air comes out of a cave and makes "wind", without attributing it to "spirits" of any kind.

Shebakoby,

"If you get the wrong kind of religion, you get the wrong kind of science." Animistic beliefs as well as any belief system that views the whole of Nature as "divine" will tend to discourage scientific discovery

The history of Christianity is one of suppressing scientific inquiry and using the power of the church to control/justify human conduct. As such, these "animistic belief systems" tend to be far more humane than the belief system that you purport to be the "Truth."

Why is it so difficult for you to understand/accept that mankind, throughout our history, has developed myths and stories to explain that which we don't understand. All of these myths, served as teaching points for subsequent generations, even though their original lesson has been blurred or forgotten. The Horne Lake caves example that you cite was no doubt a warning for folks to stay away from the cave because long time ago, something bad, or frightening, happened to someone there. The story of Adam, and the entire creation story, is merely man's attempt to explain how we got here.

Simple as that.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
Shebakoby,

_"If you get the wrong kind of religion, you get the wrong kind of science." Animistic beliefs as well as any belief system that views the whole of Nature as "divine" will tend to discourage scientific discovery_

The history of Christianity is one of suppressing scientific inquiry and using the power of the church to control/justify human conduct. As such, these "animistic belief systems" tend to be far more humane than the belief system that you purport to be the "Truth."

Why is it so difficult for you to understand/accept that mankind, throughout our history, has developed myths and stories to explain that which we don't understand. All of these myths, served as teaching points for subsequent generations, even though their original lesson has been blurred or forgotten. The Horne Lake caves example that you cite was no doubt a warning for folks to stay away from the cave because long time ago, something bad, or frightening, happened to someone there. The story of Adam, and the entire creation story, is merely man's attempt to explain how we got here.

Simple as that.

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You are asking him/her to think...That's obviousely not what he/she wants or aspires to do. He/she made the decision to close his/her mind to logical thought a long time ago. He/she would rather prostelatize. Even on threads that don't remotely call for it.