While listening to a hip hop station a few days ago I heard one aficionado say that "hip hop is dead". Is this the case? How would you characterize the state of hip hop these days?

Can it be dead? Can it please? In the family of black music, hip hop was the whiny little brother, now it is the grown ass boy still living in his mama house.

Perhaps because it was something born out of pitiable self-aggrandizement, it is always asking "How do I look? Do I look dead to you?"

Never in my life have I been so ready for the next iteration of black music, of course there is the fear that it will be even less musically inclined and more self-involved than hip hop is. It probably will be. I'm going to start listening to more blues.

Yes, Hip Hop/Rap is dead.

Is it probably due to corporate music structure and the $$$ bottom line? What sell versus what's good.

Gangsta Rap & Hip Hop has saturated the African Americans airways (along with cross-over appeal)for the last 30+ years and the money has been made and the well is drying up. To me it boils down to what sells (sampled, assembly line, computer generated Rap/Hip Hop music) versus artists with real meaning & musical talent.

Hip Hop/Rap took the assembly line money making route and shunned/lacked development and experience of true musical talent.

The White music corporate (along with it's Black music executives) wanted to and made billions with the profanity & booty shaking and they rode this horse until it did a "Big Brown" and broke a leg.

They were never interested in true musical talent & substance which takes time, effort and heart between songs & CD's (via contract) to create. They treated the industry like drug delaers. Recruit them young, starving, hungry, throw them a few bones ($$$, bling, p+ssy, cars, a house) and worked them wet like rented mules until they were put out to pasture with nothing left.

Also, don't forget about Russell Simmons, Jay-Z or Diddy. They are major players in the Hip Hop/Rap pimping game. They will continue to eat steak and drink Moet while many artists still are and will continue to eat bologna.

And the pitiful part? Neo-Soul artists and others probably can get an extensive record deal if they compromise and sell out their values for the almighty buck and fleeting fame, becoming more of a cartoon character where the video diva/personal drama (Miriah Carey, Rhianna, Boyonce etc) becomes the larger part of your career persona than your supposed skill, talent & musicianship.

Gangsta Rap & Hip Hop has stopped making money, it is fading into the background and is no longer has that cross-over mainstream appeal (to the White boys & girls), what will be left of Black music? A small percentage will probably be left when White corporate makes a U-turn (and it will) when the music climate changes, they are going to ask, "this is what we want and need, "what else do you have?" All the clothing line(s) will discontinue, the video, the bling promotions & the movie roles fade away and what's left? Very little if any.

Age will not be kind to Rap/Hip Hop music

Can/will a Rap/Hip Hop artist transform and become a future John Legend or Alicia Keyes? I don't think so.

I hope that these artists get it together. We just lost several others musical heavyweights within the past 5 years and they are not being replaced. Rap/Hip Hop is at it's end had lost it's luster years ago.

Can you just imagine L'il Wayne, 50 Cent, Snoop Dog & others at age 40-55+ (grandparents) and beyond, all tattoed up on stage in concert rapping with their 40-50+ year old fans (grandparents) all tattoed up rapping along?

Visualize L'il John at age 50+ or the late James Brown's age rapping "Get Low"

Just think how f+ucked up that will be? It will be a downright shame.

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Originally posted by MBM:
While listening to a hip hop station a few days ago I heard one aficionado say that "hip hop is dead". Is this the case?

It's an exaggeration.

Of the sort that no one would ask of any other art form ... no matter how commercially compromised.

It's like asking about the state of black America and focusing on the underclass with the excuse that the underclass is most visible.

In fact, I believe that the question shares many of the same underlying motives.

I frankly wonder why intelligent black people insist on asking it.

People say that rock and roll is dead, too. Jazz is dead. Country is dead. The blues is dead. If a "musician" doesn't put out something that sounds like everything else, nobody is going to buy it.

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Originally posted by HonestBrother:

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Originally posted by MBM:
While listening to a hip hop station a few days ago I heard one aficionado say that "hip hop is dead". Is this the case?

It's an exaggeration.

Of the sort that no one would ask of any other art form ... no matter how commercially compromised.

Not so. I've been hearing recently about how neo-soul is dead. And back in the early 80s, the big thing was about how "disco was dead."

Now, this is not very scientific, but according to Radio & Records' Urban National Airplay chart, there's only one straight hip-hop cut in this week's top ten -- "Whatever You Like," by T.I. There are some other songs that have hip-hop elements, especially with featured artists. But 5 years ago, there would've been 7 or 8 hip-hop cuts in the top 10.

Seen another way, according to the relevant Wikipedia entries, this year rap songs and hip-hop driven R&B songs have held the #1 spot on Billboards "R&B & Hip-Hop" chart for 14 total weeks out of the year. In 2002, 2003 & 2004 it was 39 weeks, 34 weeks, and 30 weeks, respectively.

So from the money-making standpoint, hip-hop does look like it's fading... It couldn't happen soon enough, if u ask me.

Creatively, IMO it's needed help for years.

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Originally posted by Vox:

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Originally posted by HonestBrother:

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Originally posted by MBM:
While listening to a hip hop station a few days ago I heard one aficionado say that "hip hop is dead". Is this the case?

It's an exaggeration.

Of the sort that no one would ask of any other art form ... no matter how commercially compromised.

Not so. I've been hearing recently about how neo-soul is dead. And back in the early 80s, the big thing was about how "disco was dead."

Notice in each instance it's a genre a black music.

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Seen another way, according to the relevant Wikipedia entries, this year rap songs and hip-hop driven R&B songs have held the #1 spot on Billboards "R&B & Hip-Hop" chart for 14 total weeks out of the year. In 2002, 2003 & 2004 it was 39 weeks, 34 weeks, and 30 weeks, respectively.

So from the money-making standpoint, hip-hop does look like it's fading... It couldn't happen soon enough, if u ask me.

I wasn't talking about the money making standpoint.

I thought that was clear from my reference to "visibility".

Even if every black listener of hip hop only listened to folks like Mos Def or Common .. but yet the wider market fell away ... then we'd still be talking about the "death of hip hop" from a commercial pov.

I find it odd that we bemoan the effects of the pursuit of "cross over" appeal on the art... and then go on to measure the health of the art by "cross over" appeal instruments.

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Originally posted by HonestBrother:

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Originally posted by Vox:
I've been hearing recently about how neo-soul is dead. And back in the early 80s, the big thing was about how "disco was dead."

Notice in each instance it's a genre a black music.

But as Nuggyt said, they also have talked at various times about how rock & roll is dead. Certainly, you remember when Alternative rock was being declared "dead" as well.

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I wasn't talking about the money making standpoint.

I guess I was going by the OP. I assumed that the person MBM was talking about meant it from that standpoint. The reason being, I wasn't hearing people saying hip-hop was dead back in 2002, when all you'd hear all day was 50 Cent & Ja Rule. So if hip-hop is being declared dead now that it appears to be less popular than it was, it seemed like a logical assumption that they were talking about it commercially speaking.

We both made different assumptions, but we can't really know which one is correct unless MBM can flesh that out for us...

But even creatively, the argument that it's "dead" holds a lot of weight, IMO. I know you like to draw the distinction. You're big on saying that we can't judge hip-hop as a genre by the commercial version. I disagree. Just because there are a few underground artists still doing what we would consider "true" hip-hop, doesn't mean we can't criticize hip-hop as a whole. The vast bulk of today's hip-hop is in the direction of what you and I would consider garbage. If 90% of hip-hop was underground (and good), you'd have a point. But how many aspiring rappers do you honestly believe, out of the millions out there, want to be like Afu-Ra instead of Li'l Wayne?

Look, I don't try to argue that r&b today is any good just because Kindred the Family Soul has a great new album out.

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Originally posted by MBM:
While listening to a hip hop station a few days ago I heard one aficionado say that "hip hop is dead". Is this the case? How would you characterize the state of hip hop these days?

We can only hope so.

And I would think that the recent attention and effort focused on an exorcism of the obsessive cursing, violent and misogynistic lyrics from it, helped in it's speedy demise!

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Originally posted by EbonyRose:

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Originally posted by MBM:
While listening to a hip hop station a few days ago I heard one aficionado say that "hip hop is dead". Is this the case? How would you characterize the state of hip hop these days?

We can only hope so.

And I would think that the recent attention and effort focused on an exorcism of the obsessive cursing, violent and misogynistic lyrics from it, helped in it's speedy demise!

And hopefully it will take the "What Have You Done For Me Lately?," busting-windows-out-the-car, misandronous R&B along with it.

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Originally posted by Vox:

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Originally posted by HonestBrother:

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Originally posted by Vox:
I've been hearing recently about how neo-soul is dead. And back in the early 80s, the big thing was about how "disco was dead."

Notice in each instance it's a genre a black music.

But as Nuggyt said, they also have talked at various times about how rock & roll is dead. Certainly, you remember when Alternative rock was being declared "dead" as well.

That maybe so ... But it comes up with a disturbing regularity within the context of black music.

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I wasn't talking about the money making standpoint.

I guess I was going by the OP. I assumed that the person MBM was talking about meant it from that standpoint. The reason being, I wasn't hearing people saying hip-hop was dead back in 2002, when all you'd hear all day was 50 Cent & Ja Rule. So if hip-hop is being declared dead now that it appears to be less popular than it was, it seemed like a logical assumption that they were talking about it commercially speaking.

We both made different assumptions, but we can't really know which one is correct unless MBM can flesh that out for us...

I spend a lot of time in alternative music stores and reading alternative sources.

I remember once a few years ago reading a review of a new soul album. It was in an alternative publication written by a white reviewer.

The reviewer weighed in on the often used trope of an artist claiming to "resurrect the art" or produce "real music". He basically said: Turn of the damn radio. If you want "real music" stop being lazy, go to a store, and buy it. Basically: Stop letting the mass market dictate what is and is not artistically viable.

Forget the large concert scene.

Check out the small clubs.

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But even creatively, the argument that it's "dead" holds a lot of weight, IMO. I know you like to draw the distinction. You're big on saying that we can't judge hip-hop as a genre by the commercial version. I disagree. Just because there are a few underground artists still doing what we would consider "true" hip-hop, doesn't mean we can't criticize hip-hop as a whole. The vast bulk of today's hip-hop is in the direction of what you and I would consider garbage. If 90% of hip-hop was underground (and good), you'd have a point. But how many aspiring rappers do you honestly believe, out of the millions out there, want to be like Afu-Ra instead of Li'l Wayne?

Look, I don't try to argue that r&b today is any good just because Kindred the Family Soul has a great new album out.

If I applied that criterion uniformly I'd have to conclude that ALL of "black culture" is dying.

Across the board.

From music (all genres) to literature to the visual arts.

And I really mean that about the visual arts. That's a scene I'm trying to work myself. It's so stagnant as to be beyond belief.

In fact, a lot of my commercial work has been with "underground" musicians.

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Originally posted by HonestBrother:

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Originally posted by Vox:
...they also have talked at various times about how rock & roll is dead. Certainly, you remember when Alternative rock was being declared "dead" as well.

That maybe so ... But it comes up with a disturbing regularity within the context of black music.

But disco did "die," in that the form ceased to be popular & fell off completely. Dance music went back underground & morphed into something else (something far funkier, in my opinion). Same thing with neo-soul. "Neo-soul" is a marketing term. It should never have been born. Alternative R&B still exists, and it's still da-bomb...

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I spend a lot of time in alternative music stores and reading alternative sources.

I remember once a few years ago reading a review of a new soul album. It was in an alternative publication written by a white reviewer.

The reviewer weighed in on the often used trope of an artist claiming to "resurrect the art" or produce "real music". He basically said: Turn of the damn radio. If you want "real music" stop being lazy, go to a store, and buy it. Basically: Stop letting the mass market dictate what is and is not artistically viable.

Forget the large concert scene.

Check out the small clubs.

That's my philosophy entirely. That's why D'Nell, Alice Russell, & Jazzanova are dominating my iPod these days.

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...But how many aspiring rappers do you honestly believe, out of the millions out there, want to be like Afu-Ra instead of Li'l Wayne?

Look, I don't try to argue that r&b today is any good just because Kindred the Family Soul has a great new album out.

If I applied that criterion uniformly I'd have to conclude that ALL of "black culture" is dying.

To be honest, I'm not sure you'd be entirely off base. At least if we're talking about African-American popular/creative culture. You're describing the arts' version of anti-intellectualism, and we ought to take it seriously, IMO.

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Originally posted by Vox:

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Originally posted by HonestBrother:

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Originally posted by Vox:
...they also have talked at various times about how rock & roll is dead. Certainly, you remember when Alternative rock was being declared "dead" as well.

That maybe so ... But it comes up with a disturbing regularity within the context of black music.

But disco did "die," in that the form ceased to be popular & fell off completely. Dance music went back underground & morphed into something else (something far funkier, in my opinion). Same thing with neo-soul. "Neo-soul" is a marketing term. It should never have been born. Alternative R&B still exists, and it's still da-bomb...

Disco was almost by definition a "cross over" phenomenon. Unlike hip hop it wasn't culturally "organic" IMO. It was a music fad that just so happened to have roots in black musical forms.

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Originally posted by HonestBrother:

Disco was almost by definition a "cross over" phenomenon. Unlike hip hop it wasn't culturally "organic" IMO. It was a music fad that just so happened to have roots in black musical forms.

Yup. Disco probably "jumped the shark" when Cher started putting out disco cuts. Either that or the "Disco Duck."

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Originally posted by Huey:

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Originally posted by EbonyRose:

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Originally posted by MBM:
While listening to a hip hop station a few days ago I heard one aficionado say that "hip hop is dead". Is this the case? How would you characterize the state of hip hop these days?

We can only hope so.

And I would think that the recent attention and effort focused on an exorcism of the obsessive cursing, violent and misogynistic lyrics from it, helped in it's speedy demise!

And hopefully it will take the "What Have You Done For Me Lately?," busting-windows-out-the-car, misandronous R&B along with it.

Amen to that, Huey!!

Stupid question alert:

Is there a difference between rap and hip hop?

Or is hip hop and rap one and the same?

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Originally posted by EbonyRose:

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Originally posted by Huey:

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Originally posted by EbonyRose:

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Originally posted by MBM:
While listening to a hip hop station a few days ago I heard one aficionado say that "hip hop is dead". Is this the case? How would you characterize the state of hip hop these days?

We can only hope so.

And I would think that the recent attention and effort focused on an exorcism of the obsessive cursing, violent and misogynistic lyrics from it, helped in it's speedy demise!

And hopefully it will take the "What Have You Done For Me Lately?," busting-windows-out-the-car, misandronous R&B along with it.

Amen to that, Huey!!

Just my 1/2 cents. Hip Hop is NOT dead....it is evolving. Soon there will another music genre born. That's like saying Gospel is dead....not! It is still a billion dollar genre...so. Hip Hop is doing what most music genres do....it is transforming.....into what? We will have to just wait and see. Also, hip hop is/was the voice of Generation X. Now that this generation X is maturing....a new voice/era is emerging to reflect the spirit of these times. Watch!