Oh dang, kresge ...

First of all, let me thank you fornot telling me exactly what a "tip drill" is or means. I think I can pretty much surmise ... but I really would rather not go there!!

Secondly, I'm trying to put the words "positive" and Pimpjuice" together in some comprehensive light ... but, you're going to have to give me a minute ... I'm having a little bit of trouble making that connection!

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
[QUOTE]If change is to happen the entire culture would have to change and no one seriously wants that to happen, because maybe someone would have to stop smoking blunts, or popping their booty in the air or glorifying guns or speaking sado machistically about harming Black women in particular during sex, or excusing ignorance....or displaying their cartoonish prowess....this wouldn't be, well, fun.

Virtue,

I would expect this observation from an obnoxious conservative white analyst or critic that was paid to demoralize the black youth. But coming from my own, it's pretty saddening. I don't know. Maybe you didn't grow up where their was a liquor store on every other corner, and a church on the corners where the liquor store wasn't. The Hood. That's cool. But I have to disagree with your views on our culture. Read the topic {Black Identity and Unity}

---
Let's, see what is it that you object to? Somehow I do not understand Black youth (of which I am one, by the way), because I did not grow up around liquor stores and churches on the corner? (which I did by the way). Well, let's see what is it that I have mis perceived. Hmmmm...So I am wrong about the high presence and promotion of drugs in hip hop culture? So young girls are not promoted as the sexual toys of young Black male hip hop artists? Oh, I must be blind when I see the videos, they must be dressed in modest attire and are the epitome of elegance and role models for young women. And this must be the majority. Forgive me. And guns do not feature prominently in the lyrics and imagery of these artists. I must be mistaken. I learned what a glock and an Ak-47 was from watching just a few videos in rotation......but according to you....maybe not. Maybe it wasn't urban violence promoted and glorified maybe they were just talking about hunting and self-defense against THE REAL criminals. Oh. And perhaps, again I was mistaken when brothers(?)talk about "hittin it from behind" and demanding women bend over to get a better view and etc. etc. What they were actually saying was "Excuse me Miss. What's your name. May I take you out tonight?" Oh, but I guess to clear my myopic view of PREDOMINATE hip hop culture, I need a liquor store and church. Brother, please.

And I do not have to be white, or obnoxious to see how the acceptance of destructive behaviors destroy us all. I am simply stating that, as you are proving, that some people, no matter what they say do not truly want change. I simply addressed both sides of the coins.

quote:

A bachelor's degree is not needed for direction and character. However, leadership with the qualities of insight, empathy, discipline and character is a necessity. This is what our generation lacks.

This positive movement that you guys implied was not authoritative or paternalistic. It's mommy and daddies job to instill discipline and character.

---
Here is where you are correct, Sir. It is mommy and daddy's job to instill discipline and character. Do you know how that's done? They make it easier for their children to maintain their virtues by requiring that the environment reflect a wholesome situation with which to raise their children. Just like some people would prefer a less stressful way to exist in a society that does not judge their drug, sex and violent habits....Many parents long for less stress in raising children in an environment that does not condemn them for wanting to raise their children with dignity, Sir. The way to do this is to request that those who oppose virtue see the error of their ways. Unfortunately, our previous generation did not do enough of this.....But you can't have it both ways. You can't say "understand, that I have a problem" and when someone empathizes and says "yes, you have a problem" you say, " see, you're wrong for pointing that out".

quote:

Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Virtue ...

That was an extremely astute observation!

There's not much I can add to it, but as far as the wisdom thing, it's not that you're not absolutely correct ... however, there is more truth that goes along with it.

No matter how much you know or are able to comprehend, there are some things that only experience can impart knowledge. That is why the saying goes as it does. It's not that a 25-year-old can't be "wise" but, it's hard for one to be as wise as a 35-year-old, because there are things that the 25-year-old simply hasn't gone through yet ... the 35-year-old has 10 additional years worth of time to have gathered that information. And the more you know, the more you know. You know?

Peace and Blessings Ebony,

You are correct. I stand corrected. Or more accurately....enlightened.

Peace,
Virtue

While I haven't been following this thread closely, I think it applies.

Published on Wednesday, May 4, 2005 by the Boston Globe
Kenneth Clark's Unfulfilled Dream
by Derrick Z. Jackson

The most twisted moment of Kenneth B. Clark's historic psychological research was when he showed a black doll to a black boy in Arkansas. Clark said the boy pointed to the doll, smiled, and said, ''That's a nigger. I'm a nigger."

That was the lowlight of groundbreaking findings in the 1940s and early 1950s by Clark and his wife, Mamie Phipps Clark, who found that black children in both the South and the North overwhelmingly said white dolls were nicer and prettier than black dolls, and black dolls were bad. The tests were so traumatic, Clark said, that in Massachusetts, some black children refused to participate, running out of the room in tears. This evidence of pyschological damage was so searing that the Supreme Court cited it in its 1954 Brown v. Board of Education decision outlawing segregated schools.

The damage was so deep that in the mid-1980s, as the optimism of the civil rights movement was stripped by the Nixon and Reagan retrenchment, Hofstra University researchers Darlene Powell-Hopson and Sharon Gopaul-McNicol found that two-thirds of black children in the United States and three-quarters of black children in Trinidad still preferred white dolls over black ones. The secretary general of the Trinidad and Tobago teachers union responded to the findings by saying: ''Even in Trinidad, where 85 percent of the people are black and we have a black government, we have not recovered from 400 years in which blacks knew the white man as the boss."

The damage was so deep that in a 1995 interview with The New York Times, Clark was asked what would the doll test would show today. His said, ''The doll test today probably would not be that much different."

That is the most horrible part about thinking about the death this week of Clark at the age of 90. On this issue, time has stood still since that black boy in Arkansas. A half-century later, black boys all over America call themselves the n-word.

The context makes it much worse. That boy in Arkansas knew that if he dared to suggest that he was not the n-word, that if he dared to express manhood, he risked a lynching. Today, black men shout the n-word to announce their manhood. Short of physical suicide, it is the ultimate defeat, dehumanizing themselves among themselves in the streets and declaring themselves to be less than human to all of white America. White Americans now make up the majority of purchases of the hip-hop/rap genre.

Clark did not work hard to see black people sell themselves cheaply. Sure, racism, bad public schools, and lack of jobs in central cities continue to play a terrible role in depressing black opportunity. But that cannot excuse the fact that all 10 of Billboard's Top 10 rap singles artists at the close of 2004 use the n-word on their uncensored albums.

The rapper known as 50 Cent, the number one rap artist at the end of 2004, is currently causing a stir at school dances with his misogyny. What should be of equal concern is that America's youth, of all colors and in the privacy of their headphones, are under a racial assault. On the same album that has parents aflame about lewd sex, 50 Cent has a track that has 23 uses of the n-word. To be clear, the rappers take the n-word and substitute ''as" or ''az" for ''er." Some say it's just harmless friendship talk. The last time I checked in the dictionary, the n-word means, ''a disparaging term for a black person."

James Baldwin once wrote, ''You can only be destroyed by believing that you really are what the white world calls a nigger." When all Top 10 rappers use the n-word, including Kanye ''Jesus Walks" West, that is a depressingly wide swath of destruction. Many of the top rappers and hip-hop artists who use the n-word were in the Top 20 of the general Billboard 200 at the end of 2004, such as West, Outkast, Jay-Z, and G-Unit. Often, the n-word is used in conjunction with glorifying violence.

This cannot bode well for the future. Schools a half-century after the Brown decision have become more segregated. The image of black males in the privacy of headphones is more perverted than ever. At some point a black child hears the n-word enough and decides -- through bad grades, pregnancy, or crime -- to destroy himself or herself. At some point a white boy or girl hears the n-word enough and decides -- when they become adults and leaders of industry -- that those people are not worth their time. Clark tried to show us a twisted mirror a half-century ago. It is time for parents, civil rights groups, and America to pick up this mirror and smash it to bits.

© 2005 Boston Globe

Heru, I've been meaning to tell you that I appreciate your addition to this conversation, as I do with everyone who has posted, and the lyrics you have contributed. Its good to have multiple views on this issue.

LaShanda Henry
Urban Dynamics

EbonyRose

quote:

“I do know how to appreciate that that deserves appreciation. But I simply cannot appreciate (I believe I heard it was 50 cent) or any other artist swiping a credit card down the crack of a girl's ass, and then being told there's nothing wrong with that and that I should understand the sentiment behind it.

You continue to say, "yeah, there's negatism, but ... " or "Yes, some of what is going on may not be quite moralistically acceptable, but ..." or "Yes, we allow ourselves to be exploited, and will even exploit ourselves, but ..." And I would submit that if you were to defend what comes before the "but ..." as intensely as you defend what comes after it, then perhaps this generation would be able get a little bit farther toward actually making this movement move, on their own even, (due to the negligence of the preceding generation to educate) -- taking into account the high level of talent and prowess that does exist within this generation.”

Kregse

quote:

“Is Puffy any better or worse than say Berry Gordy.

Note to blackoutloud: I just can't go with you on your assessment of Puffy as being a politically conscious, socially responsible business man. Kudos for his raising money for children. Yet, I can not dismiss "Making the Bands" which at times looked like a new age minstrel show. Moreover, while he may employ African Americans, I am not impressed with what I have seen of his managerial style or the image he projects and the products he purveys”

Less criticism, more construction, no buts.

On the topic of negativity in hip hop, I never say “but”, I explain why. I’m not here to make excuses for the glorification of baby mammas, wanna-be pimps and women with more dollars on their mind than sense. Folks like Snoop dog wouldn’t know about pimps and hos if he didn’t grow up on Super Fly and all the negative sixties/seventies sexism that oozed out of black exploitation films. I don’t validate the video hoes and the rappers they cling to, I verbalize how all this content is negative baggage from the past recreating itself on higher levels in our present. I try to explain where these urban youth’s minds are at, and where they are coming from to create a passageway for some level of understanding and communication between our generations. Unfortunately that is not what you all want. You all want to exasperate the fact that there are pimps and hoes in the videos, with no more than two sad words on the fact that these young kids don’t have enough parents to drag their butts off the video sets. No body wants to talk about the fact that we were born in negative debt, or how previous generations aren’t taking whatever finances they have to steer this industry or these kids in a different direction. You want to constantly remind us that this generation has no morals, and conveniently ignore the fact that previous generations didn’t have significantly more morals than we did, or any money for that matter. If they did, how come this generation went astray? If these youth are the downfall, where did they learn their negative traits? Is this all just an act of rebellion? Are they not products of their society? Does everybody just want to ignore my comments about poor schools and unemployment, because it’s so much easier to blame the videos? It’s so much easier to focus on the image, without once taking the time to explain where that image originated from. If you feel that I’m dismissing the negative side, or making excuses for it, explain to me why you are dismissing the positive side and downplaying it? Puff Daddy is not a saint, but he has done a lot more for his community and opened more doors in the cooperate world than Barry Gordy! Yes he is wealthy, and you are right some of Puffy’s business tactics are not as sanctified as we would like it, so because we don’t like his business savvy we are going to ignore the fact that this man has enough skill to rally kids to vote and get over 2 million dollars in funds for education. You are going to downplay the fact that the hip hop generation has enough political clout to get blacks to claim their voting rights as American citizens and come out in an historical number because there was no preaching, protests, or perhaps because democrats and republicans alike saw that hip hop had the potential to spark influence in a political movement. Oh I’m sorry was I naïve to use the term “political.” After all it’s too hard to hear young people protesting poverty over that loud music. But hip hops only been around for a couple of years, and these kids are young. They have done more damage than good, or perhaps their struggling to do both as most humans do. You’re going to ignore the fact that young hip hop kids of this generation are not only taking the time to tutor urban youth but busting their entrepreneurial butts to start youth programs and generate black business so they don’t have to suck up to white faces in the pursuit of white money. They don’t have to worry about getting stuck on that corporate ladder as lesser qualified white peers pass them by because their too busy trying to pave their own way and get their own piece of the American pie. Hustling is wrong, right? White people don’t make their way to the top by any means necessary in an attempt to make it and support their own. They make it to the top the white – oh I’m sorry, the right way, so I guess all those hardworking black boys who keep getting scammed by “security certification companies” and job agencies telling them their too black, under qualified, and have too much hair, they should keep on keeping on up that white ladder. Or perhaps seek advice from black business owners in their community who are not busy trying to play white, or make sure they are the only minority within the minority of financially better off. Your going to tell me street thugs transforming themselves into hip hop Celebs who try to educate kids about the harsh realities of the street, and create forums like the hip hop summit to give these kids a voice and a space to learn financial responsibility is ok, BUT not that important seeing that apart from youth programs, socially conscious lyrics, and a handful of interested adults, these kids have no one to turn to. What part of that is not political or economic? Explain to me how it’s not commendable for someone watching their family starve to go around promoting their albums and turn the worst aspects of being poor in America into a financial tool for helping the poor. But that’s not a strong argument right, because for the first time in their lives they have enough money to enjoy themselves in the way they see fit, and it’s bringing down the whole race because the addition of rappers and apparent subtraction of parents does not go hand in hand. Explain to me how it’s so easy to focus on the political gains our previous predecessors have afforded us, while ignoring that they didn’t make enough financial gain to create spaces in which their children wouldn’t have to be exploited by white media. If today is such a modern day minstrel, explain to me our historical group of mass media puppets who not only personally capitalized on their wealth but developed businesses and figured out at some point they had to take the black face off and put a black suit on. I have much love to myself and every hardworking black youth who made it to college, but explain to me how you expect my young sisters and brothers to do the same, to remain educated and work their way to decent jobs when they get caught up in the hood life of which these rappers speak; when they have more substitute teachers than real ones, their academic institutions place them in high school and they can’t even read or write. Explain how they can get a decent job in today’s society where your class of “labor workers” no longer exist, so young people either need a degree to work in today’s technologically advanced service industry or they suck it up and fill out that McDonald’s application, and spend the rest of their lives making $5 bucks an hour because they were born into poverty. Explain to me why this infuriating term “bling-bling” overshadows the possibility that maybe this generation is striving to acquire a financial stability that the previous generation did not. And maybe their tactics aren’t as moral as they should be but where do they learn morals they were seldom taught and how do they work without a system meant to keep them down? Explain to me this present day America that has created so much positivity that we can see hip hop’s negativity as a savage product of itself with no connections to anything but its own demise. Explain to me why I should defend, or invest 10% of my energy on music videos, when I’m too busy thinking about the fact that there’s no parent there to turn the TV off, or better yet sit down, listen and filter the good from the bad explaining all the madness in between. I’m more interested in listening to rappers on interviews, when they tell you that half the video props are rented, and at the end of the day you have to know more about business than music to survive in the rap game. I’m more interested in supporting young black business seeing as how we seldom support our people, young or old in any major financial ventures they do. Rather than get a Russell Simmons credit card and support a man who devotes a portion of his time and money to teach urban youth about finances and income taxes, lets just go with the white businesses, they don’t help us but those rap videos are bad. Let’s forget about the cigarettes, the FDA approvals of medicines that don’t medicate the billion and one white industries we regularly support but seldom criticize because they aren’t doing anything to our communities but continually depleting our resources and brainwashing our children. Explain to me your politics. Explain to me the positive images this generation should be living by when no body gives 2 nickels about them yet they are some how managing to acquire more financial status than their predecessors without the help of an educational system and a government created to hold them back. Ask of us young black intellectuals, ask of me, how hard it is to climb that academic ladder with people stripping at your culture the further you go out and friends dieing at your side every time you go back. From putting on suits, to selling out of cars this generation is filled with young people trying to make up for the fact that in addition to not getting morals from our parents, we didn’t get any money either. But you know what it doesn’t matter how I put it, how heru puts it, or how any of us put it, because we are all saying the same thing. Still everyone wants to get hung up on the videos. It would be too hard to give these cats some credit for rising above the educational system that pissed on them. It would be too much to acknowledge the youth programs, the deep lyrics, or our political contributions because they just aren’t political and after all you don’t think our businesses will last. If you think its enough to quote a few personally liked rappers, claim allegiance, and say “they raise ALITTLE money that’s nice”… your missing my points. My factual data, my articles, my lyrics, my examples haven’t turned one head away from the booty shaking videos, but that’s all we are to you. So give me some facts now. Tell me how the past was significantly better; tell me what they left behind to build on. This generation is everything to me, but apparently we aren’t “anything” enough for you? So tell me, what are we, where did we come from, and how do we rise above/change a system we did not create in ways that are aesthetically pleasing, politically conscious, and financially beneficial to us all?

LHenry
Urban Dynamics | Search Urban

Blackoutloud,
When you say that hip hop has only been around for a couple of years, what are you basing that assertion on? From where do you date its genesis. I believe that it is well documented that it goes back to the 70's and is approximately 30 years old as I stated in an earlier post. Thus in accessing hip hop as a movement or way of life, I think that there is ample evidence out there for investigation.

Again, if you are suggesting a radical break or paradigm shift within the tradition that would indicate a substantive change in the affirmative over early periods, I would be interested to know.

I do not think that anyone here wishes to give up on the youth. I was a college administrator for 12 years who is working on a PhD in order to go into the classroom full-time. At my last job, I had a number of students from inner city Detroit. I and others did our best to help them succeed, and fought to create a space for them in the academic community. We helped some and probably failed others. In the position before that, I was involved as a community liaison in two maximum security prisons were I dealt a great deal with young adult offenders.

I do not intend to romance the past or the present. I think that if we are to advance as a people, that we must not shy away from asking tough questions and holding people accountable, ourselves included. To not do that, is not doing anyone any favors, in fact, to not hold persons accountable is in my opinion to deny their humanity, it is to assert that they (we) are somehow less than. That is unacceptable to me.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: kresge,

Truth is undoubtedly the sort of error that cannot be refuted because it was hardened into an unalterable form in the long baking process of history... Michel Foucault

Hope begets many children illegitimately and prematurely. Allie M. Frazier

Beware the terrible simplifiers... Jacob Burckhardt

blackoutloud ...

That was quite a mouthful

But, I only have two comments ...

First of all, I'm not understanding what part of "I will reiterate that I don't find the entire concept of hip hop as a total undesireable entity." are you not grasping?

Let me put it to you point blank. I do not and have not ever condemned the hip hop generation as a whole. I know too many of every kind of youngster who is a part of it. But ... the rap video/entertainment/music industry part of is more so than less disgusting and void of any sort of social redeeming quality. I find it indefensible and morally repugnant. And that's the long and short of it.

So now ... we are left, in our conversation, with -- we obviously agree that the entire realm of the hip hop generation is not doomed to hell. And we either agree or disagree on the opinion that, generally speaking, rap videos and (and the artists who perform them) present a negative, stereotypical image to the world of the Black community. I am of the opinion that it does. What say you? Yes or no?

Secondly, of all of those social ills that you mentioned and especially the ones you attribute to the previous generation leaving and creating for you, how many songs/videos have been made that are not only articulating all of that, but offering a solution to cure it? And who are they?

In other words, okay, the school system is failing. How many videos are or have been that address fixing the school system? Or the deficit? Or the lack of adequate parental guidance? Or not enough jobs? Or poverty ... Who has videos detailing how to overcome poverty? You intellectuals ... who has made a video about them? Is the industry not big enough to perpetuate the good as well as the bad? Is balance unnecessary because it is non-existent? Why can't I see all the good things about the hip hop generation on a video, instead of hearing about them from you?

At any rate, I have to reiterate ... it's not just what you do, but how you do it. If you do not understand what that means, it's okay ... because someday you will. Of that I have no doubt. It's just a matter of whether that time is now or not!

Oh, and one last thing ... throughout this thread, some names of artists that you have referred to as "leaders" of your generation have been mentioned. And I got to thinking this morning about some of them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but ...

2Pac and Biggie, were both violently killed by gun violence perpetrated by their own kind, weren't they?

And R-Kelly ... isn't he indicted on child molestation charges?

I believe 50 cent and The Game are involved in some kind of dispute that has encompassed gunfire, aren't they?

And Puffy ... wasn't he the one in that shootout at a club, who reportedly convinced his body guard to take responsibility of unregistered gun in his vehicle?

And who is the young girl going to jail for perjuring herself in front of a grand jury? Isn't she pretty popular?

I'm assuming that the conscensus for the dissent is that Hip hop artist should be "held accountable" for the harm they are causing our culture.

What?

If anybody should held accountable it should be the parents for not having the time to teach their children the "art" of self-expression. Shame on the parents that filter the Black art, depriving their child of understanding self-expression, keeping him/her close-minded and socially detached from the black existence.

As I've said. Hip hop is a form of escapeism. The most compelling and fascinating form of expression to this day.

Hardly any of the voices of hip hop are saints. Their real people with real problems, and mistakes. This makes them more tangible. This makes their expression more intimate. I can only think of one artist that blatantly disregards quality in character. For the most part however, these are good-hearted individuals, which IMO assures that they are making quality music.

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
I'm assuming that the conscensus for the dissent is that Hip hop artist should be "held accountable" for the harm they are causing our culture.

What?

If anybody should held accountable it should be the parents for not having the time to teach their children the "art" of self-expression. Shame on the parents that filter the Black art, depriving their child of understanding self-expression, keeping him/her close-minded and socially detached from the black existence.

As I've said. Hip hop is a form of escapeism. The most compelling and fascinating form of expression to this day.

Hardly any of the voices of hip hop are saints. Their real people with real problems, and mistakes. This makes them more tangible. This makes their expression more intimate. I can only think of one artist that blatantly disregards quality in character. For the most part however, these are good-hearted individuals, which IMO assures that they are making quality music.

Both must be held accountable unless you subscribe to some kind of infinite regress, i.e., at some point as adults, one has to take responsibility for their actions and not put it on someone else. That is what it means to be an adult and not just grown. That is what it means to be a person of character.

Also, I believe that we all need outlets for self expression and release, but escapism? That is a dubious proposition to my mind. How is escapism revolutionary? How is escapism socially transformative? Instead of something transformative, it sounds like it is an abdication of responsibility, an avoidance, and quietism.

Rebelling is our release. Revolution is our relief. The "entertaining" aspects of hip hop makes it a "form" of escapism.

No one is responsible for the misintrepretation of our ART except the ones who misinterpreted.

The last thing HIP HOP is, is apologetic. "We didn't land on Plymouth Rock..." So we have no reason to apologize for "our" trangressions and conform to social standards through our music. As I said, we rebel, and we clearly have a reason to.

I tried to right a rhyme pointing this out. Feel free to give me a critical analysis of "MY" interpretation of Hip Hop.


'Our Means'

Anyway neccessary
This is our means
We came over as slaves
But now we're praised as Kings
Got the American Dream
Got the glow and the gleam
As galantly as it seems
This is our means


I think it's pathetic
Just how much you're indebted
How you gon' steal from me
Without repercussion expected
Now my percussion is hitten back
In my ride sittin back
Ridin' through your neighborhood
Shaken your home, bass got you fearin' black
Television or prison
There's no where you're safe at
My race is taken it's rightful place
I know that you hate that
At first you stole all our culture
Then hung us out to dry
But you won't get ____ from this generation
So don't even try
Cause we created a style
That you can't comprehend
Makin' amends bout to transcend
So ____ you and CNN
I could care less if you think I'm violent
This is the violence that you bred
Roosters comin' home to hatch
Off the backs of my ancestors
That's why the star spangled red


Anyway neccessary
This is our means
We came over as slaves
But now we're praised as Kings
Got the American Dream
Got the glow and the gleam
As galantly as it seems
This is our means


Back then we was taken yo' lash
Now we taken yo' cash
By the dawns early light
Won't be nothin' left but yo ash
Tried to creat your own mix
When you needed a fix federally
Used and abused our women
Treated em' like a _____ literally
Now your litters flaunt it in your face
Won't admit you wish you could have a taste
Instead you turn up yo nose
Pretendin' your smellin' waste
But they the sexiest creatures
You try to manufacture their features
By puttin' fat in your lips
Now you want to show your glutes and hips
It's a trip how things changed
We go from being estranged
We came over in chains
Now we holdin' the reins
To what's hip and what's not
We make all your children hop
By shootin' beats and rhymes at they feet
They try to dance till they drop


Anyway neccessary
This is our means
We came over as slaves
But now we're praised as Kings
Got the American Dream
Got the glow and the gleam
As galantly as it seems
This is our means


Consider this revolution
As a just retribution
For your sins against humanity
And your unjust executions
Guilty of the guillotine
That you put on our fallace
You damn right there is mallace
Now we abatin' your pallace
Sniffed out your cowardess
And boastin our prowess
So deal with watchin your supremacy tumble
Watch the kings make you humble
If you didn't want your empire to crumble
Shouldn't brought the lion out of the Safari
And the tiger out of the jungle


Anyway neccessary
This is our means
We came over as slaves
But now we're praised as Kings
Got the American Dream
Got the glow and the gleam
As galantly as it seems
This is our means

guilty of the guillotine that you placed on our PHALLUS

sorry... got caught up

For Herustar,
How do you read Romans 14 in light of this conversation:

12 So then, each of us will be accountable to God.
13 Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another.
14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean.
15 If your brother or sister is being injured by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. Do not let what you eat cause the ruin of one for whom Christ died.
16 So do not let your good be spoken of as evil.
17 For the kingdom of God is not food and drink but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
18 The one who thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and has human approval.
19. Let us then pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.
20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for you to make others fall by what you eat;
21 it is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that makes your brother or sister stumble.
22 The faith that you have, have as your own conviction before God.

Kresge,

My only defense is that I feel like the stumbling block wouldn't exist if we had more understanding and perception of art. It's a weak defense, but it's a defense nevertheless.

Paul was way too precise and specific in these passages. I relent.

oh... and "infinite regress"

Hip hop is will become progress when we stop being misunderstood.

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
oh... and "infinite regress"

Hip hop is will become progress when we stop being misunderstood.

When their are artists like Dead Prez, Talib Kweli, and even old school artists like KRS-1...

What is being misunderstood? Hip-hop has turned into a mistrel show, run by the corporations, employing those who sold out the artform(the rappers), giving the youth the wrong image to immitate, while entertaining the white kids.

Most Hip-Hop has turned into blaxploitation. Period. The part that hasn't isn't commercially viable.

And I'm a former Hip-hop head.