OK & OK.

I thought you were arguing semantics instead of intent - the word nagging seemed to put a roadblock in the way of addressing his point - The reply seemed to focus more on that word than the intent of his post.

Also, anyone can critique anything. Whether their opinion is valued is another issue entirely. I submit that your knowledge of Kurtis Blow is irrelevant. Today's youth know of RUN DMC only because Rev Run has a show on TV. They don't know Big Daddy Kane, BDP, or Juice Crew. And you don't know Field Mob, Jean Grae, or Madlib.

No worries though.

We just see it differently and I'm cool with that. I hope the young men & women you engage with your approach respond favorably to it. Perhaps we'll arrive in the same place while taking different paths.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ddouble,

------------------------------
R.I.F. (Reading IS Fundamental)...



"There are five dangerous faults which may affect a general:
(1) Recklessness, which leads to destruction;
(2) cowardice, which leads to capture;
(3) a hasty temper, which can be provoked by insults;
(4) a delicacy of honor which is sensitive to shame;
(5) over-solicitude for his men, which exposes him to worry and trouble."
-Sun Tzu

quote:

To rise, we have to find some way to be warriors with compassion. To continue along the path of "Brothers ain't nothing... Slave this - Bucking that - I don't care what happens to that artist" is just as wrong as the marginalizing images of African America as a whole in "gangster" rap.

Ok, I got it!

RAPPER REHAB

I believe we are basically trimming tree limbs, and not dealing with the root. The problem is not just the rappers they are very easy targets the problem is the culture of drugs and violence thats so deeply entrenched in american culture. Someone need to de extensive research on the impact crack cocaine had on our community in the 1980's. When we look at it from this perspective we will see how this decay occured. What we have is a whole generation of people tied to the crack game as well as the prision industrial complex.You cannot deal with bitch , ho, nigga without dealing with the climate in which these terms come out of.I dont think we are being honest here!

Zakar,

I could see how that whole crack scene could lead to the commercialization of the ghetto. The devastation that drugs, and drug dealers reaped upon their community has been mass reproduced as a tantalizing "product" for white suburbanites to enjoy. But when you still got people who refuse to see ho-ism and thug-ism imagery as a problem that needs to be addressed, how can it be approached.

DDouble's issue about the age divide could be a partially valid one and maybe it's an opportunity for hiphop oldheads and newbies to come together.

"Zakar,

I could see how that whole crack scene could lead to the commercialization of the ghetto. The devastation that drugs, and drug dealers reaped upon their community has been mass reproduced as a tantalizing "product" for white suburbanites to enjoy."

Not only this but we must deal with the overall impact this drug has had on the whole commuity, as well as the individual families within the community.

quote:

Originally posted by Sigmasteel:
We know sex,and violence sells. If that it was it takes for these artists to make a dollar then let them "sell out" but not at the expense of African-American women. The degredation of "OUR" women will only perpetuate direspect, disharmony, and disheartening in the relationships between African-American men and women. How can you display love to your wife, mother, daughter, sister, etc. and turn around and allow someone to call them a " bitch" or a "hoe" in the name of "art." Is that gonna promote any type of change in the ills of this racist society we live in... I don't think so! Crack, like rap music is mostly consumed in white communities but distributed by "us" in order to make a dollar. There are children all over the place because the Black woman are treated like doormats to be walked upon in between "visits." Instead of rapping about uplifting Black women and raising Strong Young Black Men, these "gangsta" rappers are building an army of "thugs" who are aiding in our "genocide." How are we going to raise up Strong, Black LEADERS if they aren't being fed the knowledge necessary to LEAD!

G.O.M.A.B. to the board

quote:

Originally posted by ZAKAR:
You should see how some of these sistas act when they are in the club and the most degrading music possible comes on. They are standing on couches grinding over mens faces, all in the middle of the floor bending over gyrating.

But the members of the Rutger's team weren't grinding themselves in front of mens' faces and they were gyrating in a night club, yet they were still called nappy-headed hoes, which again means that Black women's behavior doesn't have anything to do with the negative attributes that we are assigned. In other words, we are called hoes simply because we are Black women. And I think it would be sad and disappointing if we start demonizing Black women in this discussion in order to justify Imus' comments.

quote:

Originally posted by ddouble:
IMO, many of the approaches mentioned by others are not holistic. If you have young people that aren't conscious and you take away their income stream (music) without creating a new avenue, you have simply shifted the problem.

If you are waiting to read a single, holistic approach that will solve multiple, systemic problems that are deeply-rooted in our community, then you are going to be waiting for a very long time. I didn't want to get this deep into the discussion because I knew where it would lead: into a another exhausting discussion about what to do with the disadvantaged segments of our community that are uneducated or undereducated, unemployed or underemployed, lacking few or no role models, and too few opportunities outside of the confines of a ghetto prison. I mean, we are talking accumulated problems that require many on-going, seemingly neverending discussions and planning. Authors like Tavis Smiley have made attempts to address these problems in several books, but he hasn't even scratched the surface. But again, not all rappers come from disadvantaged homes and communities with limited resources. As I said before, some of these entertainers are fully aware of how their music is impacting society, and they simply do not care.

And whether these entertainers rap about criminal activity or actually do criminal activity, they are STILL harming the community. They are making it difficult for African Americans outside of the entertainment industry to be seen as REGULAR people, not criminals, not hoes. And Because African Americans are a minority in this country, many people outside of our race listen to these rappers in order to get a glimpse into what Black life and Black people are about. So we can't make excuses or feel sympathetic for these entertainers, because apparently, they are only thinking about themselves.

Instead of feeling sorry for them, I will make a choice not to financially support entertainers who communicate and act in ways that conflict with my values. Others can do the same. Perhaps then, these entertainers will start to use their talent in more socially-responsible ways.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rowe,

quote:

And Because African Americans are a minority in this country, many people outside of our race listen to these rappers in order to get a glimpse into what Black life and Black people are about.

If some idiot uses rap as a glimpse into black life, why should we be concerned?

Because of this here...

quote:

They are making it difficult for African Americans outside of the entertainment industry to be seen as REGULAR people, not criminals, not hoes.

and its effect on our interpersonal relationships, and access to opportunity based on the perception that we are "hoes,pimps,bitches, and thugs", not regular people.

The Rutgers bball women epitomize this. Here are 10 women who ascribe to "middle class american values" in every way and yet, were crudely reminded that no matter what, they are black women, and thus jigaboos and nappy ho's by media elites who hobknob with those in power. And those in power agreed until $$$ was affected.

But even with all this, I have to go back to my original posts, which says Imus is the problem. Yes, HipHop must hold itself accountable,

But what about the media elite, politicians, newsmen, writers, and other notables who appeared on the show and found nothing wrong with the constant ridiculing of black people? What does it say about the mindset of a tim russert? a rick santorum? a joe leiberman, a dick cheney?

Like Ddouble, I think we've gone round and round about 4 times, but

HeruStar,

a few pages back, I believe you mentioned capitalism... Does that mean you believe the continuance of capitalism rests upon the perception of black women and men as booty jiggling ho's and bling teef thugged out drug dealers? In other words, does capitalism need to discount us in order to survive?

IF so, this means we need to be constantly mentoring/guiding our young sistas and brothas

As well as

organizing against the corporate entity who prospers from this.

Agree?

quote:

Originally posted by negrospiritual:
EbonyRose,

I disagree with the premise that we are not part of the "hiphop" generation. HipHop began to be prominant in the late 70's and early 80's making the genre roughly 27-33 years old. A wide range of black people were either born into it or influenced by it. 80's era twenty-somethings who were dancing to hip-hop beats would be late 40's and early 50's today. A lot of 50 yr olds know the lyrics to sugarhill gang and curtis blow. Not knowing some of the technical jargon of music production doesn't exclude someone from the hiphop era.

See ... for me, NS, there is a definite distinction between rap music and hip hop. "Rap" music started in the '70s and "hip hop" is just an evolution gone bad which has morphed into what we have today! It's like the difference between the caterpillar and the butterfly ... from each other, but there's really no resemblance between the two.

I definitely see hip hop as a generational thing. And as this generation's cultural thing as well. Every generation of youth thinks that they know best ... and that the previous generation knows nothing ... until that youth generation becomes the "previous" generation, and then it all becomes clear.

As one of the rap-era generation, I don't think I believe that I have to have intimate knowledge of hip hop to be involved it. It is a part of the community, and I think I only have to know what I need to know. I can appreciate the sentiment of those whose concern is the (young) artists themselves and I believe the question of 'what to do with them' is valid. And that that should definitely be a focus of the solution, and a point of attack, if you will, but only one part. All I need to know is that it is damaging to the collective, and my part to act on will be different because of that. I think my generation feels we need to stop the damage ... and the younger generation needs to learn (with our help, of course) how to handle their business, look out for each other, and take care of their own.

quote:

Originally posted by EbonyRose:

See ... for me, NS, there is a definite distinction between rap music and hip hop. "Rap" music started in the '70s and "hip hop" is just an evolution gone bad which has morphed into what we have today! It's like the difference between the caterpillar and the butterfly ... from each other, but there's really no resemblance between the two.

Ebony, I agree with a lot of the sentiment in your post and I will say Kudos , but I would only add that Rap is a form of hip-hop and evolved from hip-hop. Hip-Hop is the mother that gave birth to gangsta rap, conscious rap and hip-hop soul. Rap cannot be separated from hip-hop anymore than 40 and 50 somethings can be separated from the discussion.

quote:

Does that mean you believe the continuance of capitalism rests upon the perception of black women and men as booty jiggling ho's and bling teef thugged out drug dealers? In other words, does capitalism need to discount us in order to survive?

I mentioned capitalism hoping that we would get an understanding on how absurd it is to make capitalism an OPPONENT. Fighting against capitalism is like standing on the beach throwing rocks at a giant whale.

No capitalism does not discount a whole race. Nor does a few rappers hiding behind capatilism discount a whole race. The idea that I was trying to bring forth was this...

quote:

IF so, this means we need to be constantly mentoring/guiding our young sistas and brothas

Yes I definately agree with this.

but this...

quote:

organizing against the corporate entity who prospers from this.

Wasted energy

quote:

Originally posted by negrospiritual:
... but I would only add that Rap is a form of hip-hop and evolved from hip-hop. Hip-Hop is the mother that gave birth to gangsta rap, conscious rap and hip-hop soul.

Not where I'm from, NS! MC's were "rapping to the beat" before there was a hip hop anything! To the best of my recollection, it actually all started by brothas standing on the corner "rhyming" for spare change and was turned into "rap" once it got put to music and started being recorded. I didn't hear anything about "hip hop" until it became some supposed type of social consciousness that had to do with expressing the "real" urban life experience to the world!

So, I would believe that the 40 and 50 y/o of today who grew up with rap music are/should be involved in the discussion about hip hop insofar as that it affects us directly as a community. It seems to me that hip hop is mainly supported by the under 30 crowd .. and those artists that get to 30 and over are usually looking for something "better" to do with themselves ... because they eventually live and learn.

The problem is, the masses, meaning the overwhelming majority of African people around the world are suffering, including inside these United States. Then you have the so called elite few,who havebought into the vaules of the european, taking advantage of the sacrifices the poor made so that they can have an opportunity to gain access to mainstream society. Once this happen these few people abandoned the masses. So what you have is a huge group of impoverished undereducated people and those who come from them that have gained some access to the mainstream but still hold strong to the masses. They people are the ones in direct conflict with the elite blacks. You see its these blacks who are embarrashed by the masses and mad at those africans that choose to identify with the masses instead of the elite.AT this time drugs are flooded into the inner cities and the rural areas. Since all the old black business left with the black elite as well as the abandonment by industrial and manufacturing based jobs, there became a rise in the so called underworld economy, filled with pimps, prostitutes,drugs,guns and acohol. So now you have about 4 to 5 generations of people growing up in this environment. Then you see in the 80' the influx of crack cocaine, coupled with Ronald Regans trickle down economics. What happed when all the social programs were defunded and many affirmative action programs defunded the bottom really began to fall out. So now you have a huge population tied to the criminal justice system and hooked on drugs.So to come back and think these people will some how pull themselves up by their bootstraps is rediculous. So when you talk about disrepect and looking like baffoons, understand the history.It didnt happen over night and its not gonna be fixed until those with the means invest their dollars in their own people instead of fleeing to the suburns giving all their money to people that dont look like us.Thats why Imus can say what he says and thats why most white people feel like that feel, they know we are the only people on the face of the earth that spend all of our money with people other than ourselves. Not only are the poor ignorant, but the so called educated are even more ignorant, they are "Miseducated". Yes these sisters ar Rutgers did not diserve to be called "nappy headed hoes" but when so many black men and women display these types of characteristics the few that have so called made it will be lumped into the same boat as the masses. So until you deal with "White Supremacy" and the legacy of slavery and disenfranchisment of black people in this country, it will never make sense or ever be corrected. We have to love ourselves,invest in ourselves, educate ourselves and protect ourselves. We have got to stop depending on other people to provide our necessities.

A lot has been said about this, but as far as hip-hop is concerned..the ones who don’t spit like that were not the ones in question, and the ones who DO spit like that don’t care about what Oprah OR ANYONE ELSE thinks, for that matter, INCLUDING myself and any other poster or blogger either in cyberspace or outerspace.

The LOVE of money is the root of all KINDS of evil, and though hip hop is not evil - it loves money.

There is a market for schit in every sector. Don Imus got rich putting out schit day after day for 30 years. People who have an acquired taste for it will pay for it.

That segment of the rap industry knows that there are all kinds of tastes and people pay for it. It seems that, for some odd reason, a whole lotta people love to consume schit on the regular and so these cats are getting rich as a result.

It’s about MONEY. People gotta eat. Don Imus had to eat. Lil Wayne gotta eat. Jenna Jameson gotta eat. Larry Elder gotta eat, and as much as people may not like it Oprah Winfrey gotta eat too. Whether you like what they are serving, it’s on YOU not to spend money on it. If you order collards and a side of bullschit, and pay for it.. don’t be mad at the cook.

Oh and on the Don Imus “nappy headed hoes” statement. He said that because he’s been getting paid to say that and all other kinds of outrageous crap.

The issue was between he and the sisters at Rutgers. Nothing wrong with being nappy headed. I’m down with showing your true glory as an African woman, but I woulda stepped to Don in a completely different way. Truth is a lot of women (no matter what race or background) are actually WHORES and BITCHES, the question is what did that have to do with the sisters from Rutgers.

If my daughter was one of the Rutgers girls, the confab would have been different.. it would have been live and direct to Don Imus..the challenge would have been the same as the challenge to male rappers:

‘Who are you calling a whore? You don’t know me and who I lay down with, just as I don’t know or care who the fizzuck you lay down with! And having nappy hair just eliminates me from your eurocentric concept of beauty that makes me less than the black queen that I am. And I’m better than your white women who engage in UNGODLY self mutilation on the regular just to prove themselves worthy to white men who are woefully unworthy of any such thing!’

But guess what? Plastic Surgeons gotta eat to, and if these women will PAY to be mutilated and have their organs and tissues reconstructed out of vanity and conceit, then is the surgeon gonna hide his scalpel under a bushel? Naw, he's like Jeezy..he gonna get paid for his DISservice.

When it comes down to a choice of consciousness or putting food on the table.. people gonna do what they gotta do to eat, and the lowest common denominator in certain segments of hip hop don't have their minds renewed enough to even care. They aren't perpetrators, they are participators.

As I do agree with most of the statements said about rap, the Imus comment, and our solutions in response to these issues. I still feel it is necessary to bring up the point that rap, and entertainment is only one field of White Supremacy.

White Supremacy (what is incorrectly called racism) is “the local and global power system of organized behavior (thought, speech, and action) structured and maintained by whites for white supremacy domination in all areas of people activity (economics, education, entertainment, labor, law, politics, religion, sex, and war). The ultimate purpose of this system is to prevent white genetic annihilation on Earth.” – condensed from The Isis Papers. In addition to this definition, as an employee of the system one’s job is to establish it, maintain it, refine it, and expand it! Be warned that often times the employees aren’t always white!

quote:

I think Earl Ofari Hutchinson would agree.

***********************************
"If you do not understand White Supremacy (Racism), what it is, and how it works, everything else that you understand, will only confuse you" - Neely Fuller Jr.

This system has been imbedded into their culture and has been passed down from generation to generation. From this we see the why’s behind the degrading, and lust of the black female. We see the continued hate and jealousy of the black male. And we see the why behind their counting, and measuring acting, in all extremes of life!

Finally, I also must say that until we can collectivly define ouselves understand where we come from and our place in this world, we will continually be victims of this system. Cleaning up the milk is only part of the problem, we must also look at why it spilled, when it spilled, who spilled it and what for.

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:

quote:

Originally posted by negrospiritual:
Yes, Imus is the problem...


He is symbolic of the historic attitude of white males toward black female sexuality.


White males must either own or dominate or profit from black female sexuality (record company execs or slaveowners)

or

hold it in contempt.


Why intelligent brothas cannot see this, and become enraged about this, is perplexing to me.

Perhaps if you read the commentary you'd see another perspective. Imus was fired. So what? Have the institutional biases that created Don Imus also been eliminated? Of course not.

If you're seriously interested in improving the treatment of black women in the media then you've got to understand that Don Imus is a mere reflection of the problem. Let's now go after solving * the problem *!

This was a great commentary. However, I am a bit at a loss as to exactly what we've identified as "the problem".

As I see it, this "problem" is not one that is confined to either African Americans (although it's been practiced on us longer than most and without a doubt we suffer most) or to American popular entertainment (though it is undoubtedly the most visible manifestation).

It manifests itself in every form of mass media in this country. Including the nightly news.

For example, why is the news media less interested in keeping us informed (for example, on Iraq, on the intricacies of Middle Eastern reality, on the health care system, on any number of real problems) than it is in entertaining and distracting us through the exclusive lens of a (largely regressive and reactionary) white hegemonic POV?

Why should we expect corporations to give us progressive hip hop when they generally demonize any progressive stance (within or without the black community)? In fact, folks started saying "progressive" because "liberal" was the kiss the of death.

My point? Not only do we need to be enraged by Imus, we need to turn off to corporate hip hop and corporate dominated media generally. Because we will never be able to depend upon them for accurate representations of us (or of Native Americans or of Iraqis for that matter). That is not their function or their raison d'etre.

Corporations are there to make profit. And that imperative requires mass media that reinforce the myths upon which white North America sustains itself - myths both about itself and about others.

I believe that someone has already mentioned the film industry. I watched The Last King of Scotland recently and was struck by the soullessness of the thing. In fact, without the central white character, there would have been no humanizing content at all. I.e., even at it's best, western society needs to see itself (and not others) as the source of humanizing values (and I ask parenthetically if it's just a coincidence that here too this noble white man had his fill of enjoying black female sexuality?)

Bring "democracy" to Iraq? Isn't that such a noble and heroic undertaking? Especially against the resistance of an ungrateful native population?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: HonestBrother,

I'M AN ELITIST TOO.