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Founder |
I find myself quite perplexed and disappointed, although not surprised, by the current talk attacking "amnesty" for undocumented workers. Those of you who have read my "stuff" about the broader immigration issue know that I see these workers as being exploited completely - no different than the sweat shop worker in Bangladesh or the person in China manufacturing goods for an American company. It's all about minimizing labor expense and maximizing profit. Slavery 2.0! My general thought is that it is wrong to demonize and blame people who have been lured here by American companies to provide them with cheaper labor. Yet, at the end of the day, it's far easier for Americans to blame other people than American companies. This is especially the case when those people are different than they are.
The current cry throughout America is against "amnesty"; granting citizenship to the undocumented workers. Let's consider a couple of points about this: Since when is citizenship such a valued state in this country any way? Perhaps the greatest expression of citizenship is in civic participation and we know that most people don't vote. Moreover, polls are routinely done that show that large portions of our country have no clue about the most basic of facts associated with citizenship. For example, a recent Pew Poll shows that only only 21% of Americans can identify who Richard Cheney and Robert Gates are. Does this demonstrate a reverence to the concept of American citizenship by being wholly ignorant about major players in our government?  Second, to me, citizenship connotes membership. A citizen is one who is a part of a community. While there can be all sorts of legal requirements to define citizenship, at the end of the day, a true member of a community is one who contributes to the health and uplift of that community. Undocumented workers have more than contributed to the American community and deserve to be citizens. Think about it. By their being here they have put billions, perhaps trillions, of dollars in the pockets of Americans businesses. This has made millions of Americans richer via greater profits, salaries, dividends, etc. Moreover, their labor has enabled you and me to buy products and services at cheaper prices than might have been available without them. Undocumented workers have built our homes, processed our meat, farmed our lands, manufactured our apparel, landscaped our yards, taken care of our kids etc., etc., etc. - benefiting America far more than themselves. Former Federal Reserve Chair Greenspan said that undocumented workers pay more into the system through their taxes than they use - thereby effectively subsidizing Americas' use of government services. To me, the total impact of undocumented workers here represents an investment in this country that has bought them their citizenship. They've earned it! Sure, I recognize that their presence here has had a damaging effect on African America. We have certainly lost jobs. Many argue that the influx of Latinos in this country has also compromised our political stature as well. Nevertheless, blaming Latinos for getting sucked into the pipeline for cheap labor that has been created by the American and Mexican governments (and that feeds American companies' thirst for greater profits) is just simply misguided. It's flat wrong in the same way that it is nonsensical to blame the Indian or Chinese worker for their role in American companies outsourcing their labor away from this country. At the end of the day, in my opinion, it's just plain wrong for us to victimize undocumented folks in this country. Talk about creating what would have to be a police state-like effort to round undocumented workers up - breaking apart families in the process - and deport them is sheer lunacy. Even suggesting that they "get in the back of the line" with respect to the immigration process seems patently unfair. Again, these are people who have done much of the hard work in this nation and been the source of extraordinary profits to many. That it would be, somehow, "fair", to put them on the same level as someone who just now decides to come to the United States is laughable. These are folks who have put in their time. They have made life easier for all of us and they deserve their citizenship. There is no amnesty. They've already earned it! Right is right and wrong is wrong. It's just wrong to further victimize these undocumented workers. Beyond that, they're here: as African Americans it just makes sense that we be strategic and thoughtful about how to interact with them in ways that benefits us - as opposed to wasting time with bullheaded ideas about 'getting rid of them'. The absolute truth about this issue is made completely clear when one realizes that we never hear talk about amnesty on the other side of this issue. Not holding companies to account for their behavior in hiring undocumented workers is corporate amnesty. Where is the groundswell about penalizing them for their role - not just going forward, but for every illegal hire that they made to line their pockets? Beyond that, the government has not enforced the immigration laws already on the books. Why does it get a free pass in facilitating this issue?  Let's all move on. Undocumented workers are here looking to make a better life for themselves just like you and me. Also just like you and me - they were brought here because they could feed the profitocracy. The issue of denying (or even delaying) these folks citizenship is logically bankrupt and morally indefensible. If we really want to assess penalties, let's start with the companies who made trillions and with the government that let them!  |
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A2 |
Well why are you so concerned about these people who came across the border on there own. These people get to come here with no documentation, no past and get a fresh start on life. You and I have been here for 400 years, have we gotten a clean slate. Do we just get to start over? Hell no. What about all those millions of Africans, Haitian and other people of African decent getting deported everyday, what about them? No one is crying for them but these Latinos who come across under bid us for many many different types of jobs and we are suppose to assist in cutting our own throats. I think not!
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C4 |
How many illegal aliens can the U.S. absorb before it works on the environment, social services , housing and other benefits allowed citizens?
In 1986 3mil were granted amnesty now 12-20mil are on the verge of being given the same. What will it be in the future 40mil to be granted citizenship. My prevailing argument is that they came here of their own accord and not by force. Is the United States a giant hotel for check-in or check-out at your own convience? The U.S. is filled to the brim with unemployed brothas and sistahs by-passed by those who want to save an additional 5cents to purchase some apples. This debate should be consolidated into one thread rather than various ones so that we members can keep track and abreast.
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Founder |
It's best that you focus your eyes on who has the knife. It ain't a poor Mexican immigrant!  How many undocumented workers would be here if American companies didn't break the law to hire them? I am focused on changing the system that created the problem. |
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Founder |
Then let's focus attention on who is breaking the law to hire illegally - taking our jobs. There would be no undocumented workers here without illegal hiring by American companies out for profits they haven't earned. |
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A2 |
Come on man, if big corporations can get workers to do jobs at a fraction of the cost and without paying benifits they are gonna do it. The will use the congress all all other government officials to go along with it. Its about money at the end of the day. My point is ok, amensty for these 20 million. Next 20 years amnesty again. What will you have? You gonna have a situation where blacks will be pushed further and further to the bottom. All the so called gains we have fought hard to get ,will be useless. I mean with your logic, lets just forget about borders let everyone who wants to migrate here, migrate, no documentation just if you can get here get here.
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C4 |
I see a nation called "AMEXICA" on the horizon will it acknowledge African-Americans???
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A1 |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MBM:
I find myself quite perplexed and disappointed, although not surprised, by the current talk attacking "amnesty" for undocumented workers. QUESTION: in your researching, have you run across anything which indicates that all 12-20 million are actually "workers"??? (seriously) Slavery 2.0! I'd have to disagree with this terminology since slavery implies no choice and no pay. All that aside, where can we actually see the amnesty bill? I've heard there are good points and bad points. Since when is citizenship such a valued state in this country any way? Perhaps the greatest expression of citizenship is in civic participation and we know that most people don't vote. Moreover, polls are routinely done that show that large portions of our country have no clue about the most basic of facts associated with citizenship.  is there a puke graemlin?Undocumented workers have built our homes, processed our meat, farmed our lands, manufactured our apparel, landscaped our yards, taken care of our kids etc., etc., etc. Nope, black people have built our homes, processed meat, farmed our lands, taken care of our kids, etc etc etc. Former Federal Reserve Chair Greenspan said that undocumented workers pay more into the system through their taxes than they use - thereby effectively subsidizing Americas' use of government services. Is Greenspan speaking simply in terms of social security, etc? Does he take into consideration education and medical care which cannot be refused? Historically, Greenspan's mumblings have been open to myriad interpretations.
When we speak we are afraid our words will not be heard or welcomed. But when we are silent, we are still afraid. So it is better to speak Audre Lord |
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Tasmanian Angel |
 I like that!  BLACK by NATURE, PROUD by CHOICE. Before there was ANY history, there was BLACK history. |
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A1 |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MBM:
Let's all move on. Misguided angst, moralizing, and handwringing aside, let's all agree to disagree, move on, and work toward other aspects of the betterment and uplift of black people. Undocumented workers are here looking to make a better life for themselves just like you and me. Also just like you and me - they were brought here because they could feed the profitocracy. They were dragged here thousands of miles on boats in chains then beat, worked, and mutilated? They were denied their own language, culture, and religious traditions? Their women were used as breeders and concubines? Their children were torn from their breasts and sold too? Wow! we do have a lot in common! The issue of denying (or even delaying) these folks citizenship is logically bankrupt and morally indefensible. that's a stretch. Citizenship is not even an issue in the amnesty bill, is it? It's legitimizing their presence, right? Also, what of the people who have actually gone through the process of applying for visas and have been waiting for years to gain entry? and what of the people who are returned to horrible economic and political conditions AFTER reaching american shores? Is that not morally bankrupt? If we really want to assess penalties, let's start with the companies who made trillions and with the government that let them! Kool! this could/should be the centerpiece of a multi-pronged approach. Wanna start a petition? A lobby? When we speak we are afraid our words will not be heard or welcomed. But when we are silent, we are still afraid. So it is better to speak Audre Lord |
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Tasmanian Angel |
Here is a LINK to the proposed legislation from the Senate website.
 BLACK by NATURE, PROUD by CHOICE. Before there was ANY history, there was BLACK history. |
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C4 |
Muchas gracias, Negra Rosa....oops.....I mean...Thank You, Ebony Rose  |
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Founder |
It amazes me that you would complain about a problem, yet seemingly throw up your arms in defeat and refuse to attack the source of the problem. Let's say we deport 100% of the illegal (and legal) Mexicans in America today. According to you (and I agree), companies will merely move on to the next form of exploitation. Black folks will get screwed again. Addressing the problem would seem to be the only way to gain some measure of progress on it. Surely, attacking another victim of American labor exploitation doesn't solve our problems. Again - do you you feel similarly toward someone in a sweatshop in China who is also responsible for taking an American job? Why aren't you addressing the source of the problem and pressing for companies to obey the law and stop screwing American workers?
If we ignore the source of the problem then this will, no doubt, occur.
Respectfully, I don't get it. If the Latino population increases, how exactly will that eliminate our right to vote or our ability to create businesses or gain an education or advance ourselves otherwise? Sure things will be more competitive for us, but they already are. They are already here.
I never said or inferred this. What I have said is that Mexican workers have built, fed, and clothed this nation. They have subsidized your and my existence here by paying more for government services than they've used. Moreover, and more fundamentally, they have been exploited completely for their labor (by the United States, Mexico, and individual companies) and allowed American firms (and their beneficiaries) to make perhaps trillions of dollars that they wouldn't otherwise have. All I'm saying is that with all of the above, I think they've earned their citizenship. |
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Founder |
This seems to be at the core of many African Americans problems with this issue. They somehow feel a need to equate their experience with those of Mexicans. Respectfully, who gives a care that they weren't exploited to the same degree that we were? Why is that relevant? Black folks are so busy running scared about losing their status as the 'favored minority' on massa's porch - yet most of us are squarely afraid to address the issue in a way that might yield results. Friends, some poor Mexican family of four making $16,000 a year is nothing for you to fear. The company breaking the law to hire that person is the culprit - yet we're too "ascared" to look them in the eye and call them on it. HOW MANY MEXICANS HAVE REFUSED TO HIRE AFRICAN AMERICAN WORKERS? Not many!  |
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A1 |
The company breaking the law is a culprit. On this point, I agree. Where should we start? A petition? a lobby? A meeting with the CBC? A public relations campaign? I'm on board. The rest, you should leave alone and quit moralizing/lecturing to peep. When we speak we are afraid our words will not be heard or welcomed. But when we are silent, we are still afraid. So it is better to speak Audre Lord |
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A1 |
This is the most oversimplified oft repeated wrongly conflated propaganda i've seen. (1)fear of losing favorite minority status or massa's breadcrumbs or whatever rhetoric is en vogue... and (2)voicing concerns for the plight of black workers are not the same issue and blackness is not well served by conflating the two. When we speak we are afraid our words will not be heard or welcomed. But when we are silent, we are still afraid. So it is better to speak Audre Lord |
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A2 |
why in the hell should I spend my time fighting for the rights of people who jump the fence to come here and take jobs a lot of my family and friends would be doing. At the same time these same people dont give a dam about me and mines. We always jumping on everyone elses band wagon and at the end of the day we end up with nothing. Come on this Black/Latino alliance is not real. Show me the evidence!!
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Founder |
NS - please explain to me how comparing 'war wounds' "voices concerns" of black workers. Please also explain how ignoring the source of those black workers' problems is in their benefit. Again, if employment is the issue, how many Mexicans are employing people in this country? |
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A1 |
and all along here i was thinking this country had been built on backs of black workers. silly me. No one is subsizing black existence except 400 years of black labor. WTF? When we speak we are afraid our words will not be heard or welcomed. But when we are silent, we are still afraid. So it is better to speak Audre Lord |
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Founder |
Friend, I have opinions. I write about them. It's what I do. Furthermore, I care about our people. You would prefer me to sit on the sideline and be silent about how I think most of us are falling for 'the hype' on this issue? Nope! If you can acknowledge that companies created this issue, that companies have a fundamental and structural incentive to exploit workers for their benefit, and by far (in the trillions of dollars) profit from this issue, then sitting by and watching us focus the majority of our attention on the wrong party is nonsensical. This is particularly the case since the powers that be - who are benefiting most from this - have a fundamental interest in having us blame the immigrants and not them - again, for their benefit! |
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