The Undocumented Illegal Immigrants are benifiting greatly because of this. They get to come to a country, create a whole new Identiy get a cleans slate, and im suppose to look at these people as victims??? Come on dude

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:
Again, if employment is the issue, how many Mexicans are employing people in this country?

please explain how this matters?

quote:

Originally posted by negrospiritual:

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:

What I have said is that Mexican workers have built, fed, and clothed this nation. They have subsidized your and my existence here by paying more for government services than they've used.

and all along here i was thinking this country had been built on backs of black workers. silly me. No one is subsizing black existence except 400 years of black labor. WTF?

How many Mexicans, negrospiritual, were here in America in the 19th century? Isn't it implicit in writing about Mexican immigrants in America that we're talking about a time when they were here?

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:

Friend, I have opinions. I write about them. It's what I do.

True dat friend, but isn't it time to "move on" and get together that coalition of peeps to do something about corporations? And allow those who have ideas about other facets of this issue to do their thing?

quote:

Originally posted by negrospiritual:

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:
Again, if employment is the issue, how many Mexicans are employing people in this country?

please explain how this matters?

Are you serious?

It matters because the problem is one created and fomented 100% by the companies doing the hiring. If American companies didn't hire workers illegally, then there would by no immigration issue. It's the entire point of what I've been writing about on this issue since day one.

Mexicans don't create jobs for themselves. They are lured here to be taken advantage of and exploited in an illegal fashion.

If companies weren't hiring them, they wouldn't be here. PERIOD.

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:

quote:

Originally posted by negrospiritual:

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:

What I have said is that Mexican workers have built, fed, and clothed this nation. They have subsidized your and my existence here by paying more for government services than they've used.

and all along here i was thinking this country had been built on backs of black workers. silly me. No one is subsizing black existence except 400 years of black labor. WTF?

How many Mexicans, negrospiritual, were here in America in the 19th century? Isn't it implicit in writing about Mexican immigrants in America that we're talking about a time when they were here?

Not at all. Why do you keep trying to say mexican labor has done this and that and so n so for black people? that is the part. Where is that coming from?

What? Mexican labor built our homes? Da hell

quote:

Originally posted by negrospiritual:

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:

Friend, I have opinions. I write about them. It's what I do.

True dat friend, but isn't it time to "move on" and get together that coalition of peeps to do something about corporations? And allow those who have ideas about other facets of this issue to do their thing?

The legislation is being debated in Congress as we speak. It is a timely issue - particularly the component about "amnesty" which is a key point in all of this.

Moreover - as long as I feel folks are off point on this, I see an obligation to express the differences that we have on it. I certainly respect opposing opinions, I just would love to be able to express how those differences are counterproductive.

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:
Mexicans don't create jobs for themselves. They are lured here to be taken advantage of and exploited in an illegal fashion.

If companies weren't hiring them, they wouldn't be here. PERIOD.

I said earlier, yes, corporations are a piece of the problem. I even said, well what do you want to do? a petition? lobby?

There is no "PERIOD" because there are more considerations than those of black intelligentsia thrice removed from manual labor (myself included). Your perspective is a piece of the puzzle, but not the end all be all as

you will be hard pressed to find poor and working class blacks who will agree that mexicans have built the country and cared for their kids...

quote:

Originally posted by negrospiritual:

Why do you keep trying to say mexican labor has done this and that and so n so for black people?

Other than implying that African Americans are American and that undocumented labor has affected America, I have made no claims specific to black people.

If their impact has been so negligible as to escape contact with African America - then what's all the beef about?

quote:

Originally posted by negrospiritual:

I said earlier, yes, corporations are a piece of the problem.

So what are the other pieces? You infer that corporations are somehow forced to break the law and hire Mexicans? How does that work?

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:

If their impact has been so negligible as to escape contact with African America - then what's all the beef about?

What's all the handwringing, crying, and moaning about?

quote:

Originally posted by negrospiritual:

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:

If their impact has been so negligible as to escape contact with African America - then what's all the beef about?

What's all the handwringing, crying, and moaning about?

That's my question to you precisely. Why all the histrionics about slavery etc. when we're talking about a group of people - over the last 20 years or so - who have been sucked North on a pipeline to America. We acknowledge that the issue benefits Mexico, the United States, American corporations and their beneficiaries. Most people understand that the workers are making but a percentage of our legal minimum wage while often working under conditions that are also illegal and immoral. So, we have all these major institutional beneficiaries enjoying an illicit few trillions of dollars, yet we get emotional about a poor amigo making $1.50 an hour?

I don't get it. Particularly when the logic about this has been laid out and seems clear.

quote:

Originally posted by negrospiritual:

I said earlier, yes, corporations are a piece of the problem. I even said, well what do you want to do? a petition? lobby?

I'm working on it. I've alluded to our "Taming The Profitocracy' before? We've got to get consumers the information to allow them to make much more informed and strategic purchase decisions. Our buying habits can not only satiate our day-to-day needs, they can also help mold this country to be much more 'people friendly'.

If Americans were unified in only buying products and services from companies who employed American workers, American manufacturing, and who invested in meaningful ways in their local communities - then the business landscape would be transformed into a much more human centered place. People have to provide the counterbalance to the blind lust of the profitocracy.

We can.

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:
So, we have all these major institutional beneficiaries enjoying an illicit few trillions of dollars, yet we get emotional about a poor amigo making $1.50 an hour?

Okay ... I really, really really did not want to enter this discussion on any level ... but, this has really just gotten ridiculous!! I can't figure out of you are only hearing what you want to hear ... or if you really just don't give a rat's ass about what other people are saying here, MBM!!

But, let me try to make this perfectly clear, this one last time!!

I don't care if "amigo" was making $27.50 an hour, building me a mansion on a hill with his bare hands, or having my children for me!! I don't care if he comes here to eat/feed his family ... or to vacation in the beautiful California sunshine!! I COULDN'T CARE LESS!!

If "amigo" is here illegally and his presence here has any residual negative effects upon the African American community ... THAT is what I get so emotional about!! PERIOD!!

And you can repeat your assertion everyday for the next 60 years that my (and others) reasoning has to do with being mad at "amigo" for making his little $1.50 ... but it will not change the reality nor the fact that that is simply not true!

Nobody here has denied or argued against the fact that illicit corporate practices are a factor in the illegal immigration debate. Nobody. At least that I've read. What some of us do deny, though, it that it is the only meaningful factor! And you way you are willing to listen to opposing views on this subject ... but, I have yet to see where that's even true! For every "other" consideration, you insist that it is invalid due to it's lack of importance as compared to the actions of the major corps that hire them.

If you think you are being fair ... I'd hate to see what happens when you are one-sided in your opinion of a given situation.

quote:

Originally posted by EbonyRose:


If "amigo" is here illegally and his presence here has any residual negative effects upon the African American community ... THAT is what I get so emotional about!! PERIOD!!

You illustrate my point perfectly. You get animated about a poor Mexican immigrant breaking the law yet apparently give a free pass to the government not enforcing the immigration laws that we have on the books and by American companies breaking the law to hire these folks. Moreover, without these two - the government facilitating businesses breaking the law and companies hiring them illegally - THERE WOULD BE NO ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION PROBLEM!

Where is your energy for the sources of the problem ER?

All I'm saying is that in the scheme of things, if we're going to get "animated", let's do so against a party that is both the culprit AND who can really stop the issue.

Do you understand that in the same way that slavery (one form of exploitation) was abolished yet businesses found other ways to exploit, we could deport 100% of the undocumented workers today and American businesses would merely find another way to exploit American workers by going around American law to get the job done cheaper by some other means. Without addressing the core issues, it will not end and black folks will remain screwed!

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:

quote:

Originally posted by EbonyRose:


If "amigo" is here illegally and his presence here has any residual negative effects upon the African American community ... THAT is what I get so emotional about!! PERIOD!!

You illustrate my point perfectly. You get animated about a poor Mexican immigrant breaking the law yet apparently give a free pass to the government not enforcing the immigration laws that we have on the books and by American companies breaking the law to hire these folks. Moreover, without these two - the government facilitating business' breaking the law and companies hiring them illegally - THERE WOULD BE NO ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION PROBLEM HERE!

Where is your energy for the sources of the problem ER?

All I'm saying is that in the scheme of things, if we're going to get "animated", let's do so against a party that is both the culprit AND who can really stop the issue.

Do you understand that in the same way that slavery (one form of exploitation) was abolished yet they found other ways to exploit, we could deport 100% of the undocumented workers here and American businesses would merely find another way to exploit American workers by going around American law to get the job done cheaper by some other means.

Ebony, why allow others to make you think your argument is any more "emotional" than theirs is? After all, who is crying and wringing his hands over the amnesty bill?

quote:

Originally posted by negrospiritual:
Ebony, why allow others to make you think your argument is any more "emotional" than theirs is? After all, who is crying and wringing his hands over the amnesty bill?

And am very, very sorry I even tried.

furthermore

this pro illegals group of blacks instantly tries to characterize their perspective as the only perspect "PERIOD"

and resorts to the ole "favorite minority status" "massa's breadcrumbs" and "status quodefenders" type name calling rhetoric EVERY time

and yet

try to characterize your views as "emotional"

quote:

Originally posted by negrospiritual:

Ebony, why allow others to make you think your argument is any more "emotional" than theirs is? After all, who is crying and wringing his hands over the amnesty bill?

I've articulated facts to outline my position. You've chosen to ignore those facts and merely throw out emotional appeals to some sense of blackness and historical justice. Please deal with what I've put in front of you. There are quite a few questions that you've yet to answer.

quote:

Originally posted by negrospiritual:

furthermore

this pro illegals group of blacks instantly tries to characterize their perspective as the only perspect "PERIOD"

and resorts to the ole "favorite minority status" "massa's breadcrumbs" and "status quo" defenders type rhetoric EVERY time

and yet

try to characterize your views as "emotional"

NS - deal with the facts in front of you. Answer my questions.