quote:

Originally posted by MBM:
B. Are you suggesting that yours is?

No beloved....

I'm saying that neither your, my or anyone's personal experience compares to the masses...


but I do not wish to stray too far off topic...

quote:

Originally posted by Khalliqa:

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:
B. Are you suggesting that yours is?

No beloved....

I'm saying that neither your, my or anyone's personal experience compares to the masses...

Exactly!

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

"Old Jacks" tend to have the annoying habit of asking rhetorical questions in which they are not really interested in getting answers to.

No question is rhetorical to someone who can answer it.

Excellent, excellent commentary, MBM!!

Unfortunately, this is not a discussion I want to/am emotionally prepared to delve deeply into at this time.

However, I will say to answer one of your base questions regarding it, that I believe the "New Jack" leadership though present, is still in the learning stage. They have not yet 'earned their stripes' and don't, for all intents and purposes, know how to fight the battle, nor have a specific plan of action ... yet.

Their numbers are small (those who are in the best position to lead) and surprisingly, while I do believe that unifying to tackle the important issues and 'fight the fight', as it were, won't be a problem for them, as it was for us (through the advent of the new technology at their disposal, they already know how to use it well!), I do question how long it will take for them to truly become fully armed to do battle, as it relates to knowing where the fight should be directed, the best way to approach it and how correct it.

We did what we did through the CRM by developing that kind of knowledge first and finding a effective way to put it into practice, which was through marching, protest and (non-violent) demonstration. And it was deemed a success because it worked .. in the end, we got what we were asking for.

In this generation, I see far to many that want to be 'chiefs' and far too few willing to be "Indians". This can and will be a/the barrier. And it might take this whole generation to figure that out .. and then they will be the 'elders' with the knowledge and the know how ... but, hopefully, the generation underneath them will be more willing to listen and be guided into what they need to do. If not, there's always the generation after that ... and the one after that ... and the one after that!

But that's all I have to say about that!

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

"Old Jacks" tend to have the annoying habit of asking rhetorical questions in which they are not really interested in getting answers to.

No question is rhetorical to someone who can answer it.

I was attempting to answer until you redirected the discussion more narrowly towards Glaude.

You specifically narrowed the question towards Glaude.

Simple: Ask Glaude.

Until you do that, then the question is only "rhetorical" because the only person who can answer a question directed specifically at Glaude ... is Glaude.

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

"Old Jacks" tend to have the annoying habit of asking rhetorical questions in which they are not really interested in getting answers to.

No question is rhetorical to someone who can answer it.

I was attempting to answer until you redirected the discussion more narrowly towards Glaude.

You specifically narrowed the question towards Glaude.

Simple: Ask Glaude.

Until you do that, then the question is only "rhetorical" because the only person who can answer a question directed specifically at Glaude ... is Glaude.

I already have.

You "elders" ought to listen to yourselves.

Because every time somebody actually suggests alternative ideas then you immediately change the subject ... confuse the issue .. and then rhetorically ask "What are the alternatives?"

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:
I already have.

What did he say?

You don't indicate his answer (that I can see) in your commentary.

Great commentary MBM,

I find many of the “New Jacks” as you called them to be so damn disrespectful in their attempts to wrestle the mantle from the hands of the “old guard.” One ofthe basic tenets of being Africans we have abandoned is respect for elders. I am not talking about respecting people older than you, I am talking about “Elders” in the sense of those who have went before you and fought the good fight and continue in that fight to this day and is a source of knowledge of past struggles and wisdom as to how we should proceed today. As you mentioned, they have their shortcomings, all of them do however, the truth is not dependant on the behavior of the speaker of that truth albeit it is better received when the person who speaks is has good character.

The interesting thing about all claims of reverting to impulsive tactics of old is that this thinking is rooted in the idea that new battles cannot be won using tactics from old battle plans even when the enemy is the same. However when it comes to the kind of demonstrations like that we seen in Jena, there is no new way of doing it. We can take a look at protest all around the world and for the most part they are all governed by civil unrest, protesting and marches. Just look at Myranmar today. The New jacks will not get anything done nor ascend to the front without showing us their works.

quote:

Originally posted by Faheem:
Great commentary MBM,

I find many of the “New Jacks” as you called them to be so damn disrespectful in their attempts to wrestle the mantle from the hands of the “old guard.” One ofthe basic tenets of being Africans we have abandoned is respect for elders. I am not talking about respecting people older than you, I am talking about “Elders” in the sense of those who have went before you and fought the good fight and continue in that fight to this day and is a source of knowledge of past struggles and wisdom as to how we should proceed today. As you mentioned, they have their shortcomings, all of them do however, the truth is not dependant on the behavior of the speaker of that truth albeit it is better received when the person who speaks is has good character.

ASA...

Faheem, do you think that youthful behavior/etiquette is ingrained...? I believe it is cultivated...

quote:

The interesting thing about all claims of reverting to impulsive tactics of old is that this thinking is rooted in the idea that new battles cannot be won using tactics from old battle plans even when the enemy is the same.

Some tactics are reactionary Faheem...

must go...

brb...

Let me only suggest this to you "old jacks":

You're not the ones getting shot up in these "new battles".

You need to - unlike George Bush - actually listen to the troops on the ground.

I'm outta of the discussion. Bye!

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

You "elders" ought to listen to yourselves.

Because every time somebody actually suggests alternative ideas then you immediately change the subject ... confuse the issue .. and then rhetorically ask "What are the alternatives?"

First - a mathematician should have a better handle on a numerical concept like "elder".

Second, I am anxiously awaiting "alternate ideas". In fact, that is the entire point of the thread.

Third, how and where did I "change the subject" and "confuse the issue" in this thread? Or were YOU asking rhetorical questions?

Fourth, critique without alternatives is a prescription for inaction. Is that what you propose (NOT a rhetorical question)?

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:
I already have.

What did he say?

You don't indicate his answer (that I can see) in your commentary.

As I recall he prevaricated. link

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

You "elders" ought to listen to yourselves.

Because every time somebody actually suggests alternative ideas then you immediately change the subject ... confuse the issue .. and then rhetorically ask "What are the alternatives?"

First - a mathematician should have a better handle on a numerical concept like "elder".

Of what relevance is that question to this discussion?

You mean that I just ought to do what you say .. because you're an "elder"... right? .. or do I misunderstand?

quote:

Third, how and where did I "change the subject" and "confuse the issue" in this thread? Or were YOU asking rhetorical questions?

MBM, with all due respect, you are a master at steering the discussion to suit your agenda. Using whatever means at your disposal.

Or need I remind you of "disagreements" we've had in the past? Your response to which - in my mind at least - was an instance of just that. Very typical of "old jacks" IMHO.

Anyway, I doubt your sincerity at being interested in alternatives.

So I will not pursue the issue. It seems pointless.

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

You "elders" ought to listen to yourselves.

Because every time somebody actually suggests alternative ideas then you immediately change the subject ... confuse the issue .. and then rhetorically ask "What are the alternatives?"

First - a mathematician should have a better handle on a numerical concept like "elder".

Of what relevance is that question to this discussion?

You mean that I just ought to do what you say?

No - in my mid 40's, I hardly qualify for that status so I was merely playing with you about your use of the term "you elders".

quote:

quote:

Third, how and where did I "change the subject" and "confuse the issue" in this thread? Or were YOU asking rhetorical questions?

MBM, wih all due respect, you are a master at steering the discussion to suit your agenda. Using whatever means at your disposal.

Or need I remind you of "disagreements" we've had in the past? Your response to which - in my mind - was an instance of just that.

Anyway, I doubt your sincerity at being interested in alternatives.

So I will not pursue the issue.

Changing the subject? Confusing the issue?

I asked you specific questions responding to your words in this thread.

I only recall "specific " questions about Glaude ... which I am in no position to answer ...

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

I only recall "specific " questions about Glaude ... which I am in no position to answer ...

Let me then clarify that my comments referenced Glaude's words and all those who think/feel similarly.

That said, do you have any particular thoughts on the matter?

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:
Let me then clarify that my comments referenced Glaude's words and all those who think/feel similarly. That said, do you have any particular thoughts on the matter?

Local and national organizations like the National Organization of Concerned Black Men and 100 Black Men of America, founded in 1963, have been active for quite some time. I think we need to abandon the idea that unless the media shines a light on a person’s or organization’s efforts, the organization is nonexistent or ineffective. In addition to marching and signing petitions, a major responsibility for every African American is to seek out (and join) those servicing groups that have been organized to help your community. I am not a member of this particular organization, but the United Nation of Islam (U.N.O.I.), for example, does a wonderful job at reaching out to the community in my area and ushering in new generations of Black youth. They have even established self-managed restaurants, banking institutions, schools, and other facilities all owned and operated by volunteer members of their organization. But don’t expect the media to credit and acknowledge their work, because it is not. It is the media that clings to historical figures like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, because they are well known. Also, these figures attend marches for equal justice, because the African American community expects them to, and they are very much aware of this.

However, the quality of someone’s leadership should not be contingent upon her or his ability to be singled out by the media. The new generation is focusing on community leadership, not individual leadership. We are confronted with the realization that the injustices set against Black people have become too sophisticated and widespread in the 21st century for one person to assume all of the responsibility for advancing causes for Black people. We are interested in discovering ways in which everyone in the community (E.g., elders, young adults, and children) can come together to make a difference in their local communities and throughout the world.

Ultimately, we have to realize that the events in Jena, Louisiana are not just happening in Jena, Louisiana. They are happening to people of color all over the world and can happen to anyone. In fact, injustice against African Americans, particularly African American boys, starts early. Studies have shown that a disproportionate number of Black boys are tracked into educatable mentally-retarded classes and they are expelled from school for inappropriate reasons, even though they are no more likely to misbehave in school than are non-Black children. Where is the outrage about this injustice? Where are the marches and petitions to counteract this injustice?

I don’t understand why seeing Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton at a site of injustice symbolizes resolution for so many people. The fight is ongoing, and we should be careful not to let the media dictate who or what gets things accomplished in our community. The on-going and tireless efforts of local organizations and child advocates and activists are far more effective at continuing the struggle for Black people than are quick-response marches, in my opinion. No, you won’t be on CNN or Fox News tonight talking about your latest accomplishment, but knowing that you are making a difference in whatever ways that you can is comforting.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rowe,

quote:

Originally posted by Rowe:

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:
Let me then clarify that my comments referenced Glaude's words and all those who think/feel similarly. That said, do you have any particular thoughts on the matter?

Local and national organizations like the National Organization of Concerned Black Men and 100 Black Men of America, founded in 1963, have been active for quite some. I think we need to abandon the idea that unless the media shines a light on a person’s or organization’s efforts, the organization is nonexistent or ineffective. In addition to marching and signing petitions, a major responsibility for every African American is to seek out (and join) those servicing groups that have been organized to help your community. I am not a member of this particular organization, but the United Nation of Islam (U.N.O.I.), for example, does a wonderful job at reaching out to the community in my area and ushering in new generations of Black youth. They have even established self-managed restaurants, banking institutions, schools, and other facilities all owned and operated by volunteer members of their organization. But don’t expect the media to credit and acknowledge their work, because it is not. It is the media that clings to historical figures like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, because they are well known. Also, these figures attend marches for equal justice, because the African American community expects them to, and they are very much aware of this.

However, the quality of someone’s leadership should not be contingent upon her or his ability to be singled out by the media. The new generation is focusing on community leadership, not individual leadership. We are confronted with the realization that the injustices set against Black people have become too sophisticated and widespread in the 21st century for one person to assume all of the responsibility for advancing causes for Black people. We are interested in discovering ways in which everyone in the community (E.g., elders, young adults, and children) can come together to make a difference in their local communities and throughout the world.

Ultimately, we have to realize that the events in Jena, Louisiana are not just happening in Jena, Louisiana. They are happening to people of color all over the world and can happen to anyone. In fact, injustice against African Americans, particularly African American boys, starts early. Studies have shown that a disproportionate number of Black boys are tracked into educatable mentally-retarded classes and they are expelled from school for inappropriate reasons, even though they are no more likely to misbehave in school than are non-Black children. Where is the outrage about this injustice? Where are the marches and petitions to counteract this injustice?

I don’t understand why seeing Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton at a site of injustice symbolizes resolution for so many people. The fight is ongoing, and we should be careful not to let the media dictate who or what gets things accomplished in our community. The on-going and tireless efforts of local organizations and child advocates and activists are far more effective at continuing the struggle for Black people than are quick-response marches, in my opinion. No, you won’t be on CNN or Fox News tonight talking about your latest accomplishment, but knowing that you are making a difference in whatever ways that you can is comforting.

Great commentary Rowe!

I would also add that your local branch of the MMM(Millions More Movement) is an effective ongoing way to work on multiple levels and in multiple ways for our people.