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A1 |
We do need organization MBM. Nobody mentioned titles and coronations(coronations are for royalty), so I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean. I don't get it, it seems like organization isn't seen as a mandatory step in the ongoing process of collective(not individual) action? What's up with that? Is not collective action viewed as more effective anymore? I definately see myself as part of the 'active' younger generation, one who has been well mentored by my elders. All the elders I know have beat into my head that 'you can barely bust a grape' as an individual in comparrison with wahat can be accomplished as a collective. These same elders taught me that ongoing collective processes are far more effective than isolated and reactionary events. Egungun, Egungun ni t'aiye ati jo! Ancestos, Ancestors come to earth and dance! "I'm sick of the war and the civilization that created it. Let's look to our dreams, and the magical; to the creations of the so-called primitive peoples for new inspirations." - Jaques Vache and Andre Breton "Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." -John Maynard "You know that in our country there were even matriarchal societies where women were the most important element. On the Bijagos islands they had queens. They were not queens because they were the daughters of kings. They had queens succeeding queens. The religious leaders were women too..." -- Amilcar Cabral, Return to the Source, 1973    |
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Founder |
The point of the commentary is about the younger generation pushing up against the older for power and influence in leading African America forward. Implicit in an "establishment" generation of leadership are things like titles and the 'blessings' of the 'powers that be'. Of course we need organization. The point is just that new organization can be just as effective as old. Furthermore, for me, it's that criticism of the old guard by the 'young bucks' - absent organization and ideas from that younger generation - is hollow.
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A1 |
Speaking for myself, I said nothing about "titles" or "blessings" ... Speaking for myself, it would be nice if the "powers that be" simply refrained from sabotage. I don't know how it is in your neck of the woods. But I've searched wide and far in my own. And what I've seen is a profound poverty of ideas on the part of "old jacks" matched with a determination to marginalize "new jacks" - unless they toe the line. I'll tell you a story ... Take it with a grain of salt. But I've found it to be fairly typical (in my neck of the woods anyway). It's also relevant to the point I'm trying to make. Several years ago, a library here celebrated it's centennial. What's significant here is that it services a predominately black area. It is one of the oldest such public libraries in the country and had a year long program of events to mark the occasion. I had the idea of doing a Black History Month photo exhibit. But with a difference. I had the idea to update traditional imagery. Instead of seeing MLK or Harriet Tubman or Rosa Parks for the gazillionth time, I thought it would be nice to celebrate people who are alive TODAY as contributors to black history - LIVING history if you will. I approached ordinary people across a broad spectrum of the population about posing for portraits. Old, young, local celebratees, ordinary working people, male, and female. I photographed them and conducted short interviews. I also made use of my own resources to pull it off. People LOVED it. It generated a lot of local excitement. People and their families showed up just to see which pictures were exhibited. In short, the people thought it was a great idea. BUT ... I encountered so much friction from the "powers that be" ... it was ridiculous. To make a long story short, they were upset that I dared to deviate from what they thought Black History month imagery should be. Not only was there a behind the scenes power struggle just to realize my concept ... but in the following year, not only was I NOT invited back to participate in festivities ... but these people took my idea. There hadn't been a Black History month photo exhibit here before I did one. But in the following year there were at least 3. Featuring older, local, black photographers. And true to form they reverted back to the old imagery.  What's really funny is that some of the same people who stood in my way are also ones who like to talk about the "apathy" of black youth. I know this isn't earth shaking. But it was one example of a small attempt of mine to make a difference. It was an attempt at generating "alternatives" AND community participation. And the "powers that be" suck. I could tell plenty of similar stories ... Anyway, I've more than earned the right to my opinion.
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A1 |
So was your comment about coronations and titles in response to the article or to what I posted? I think that is where some of my confusion is coming from. Admitedly, I am coming from a different persective. I'm not trying to be part of the so called 'establishment'. The only title(or rather description) I think people should aspire to is that of 'worker'. All the other stuff is somewhat bourgeoise IMO. Egungun, Egungun ni t'aiye ati jo! Ancestos, Ancestors come to earth and dance! "I'm sick of the war and the civilization that created it. Let's look to our dreams, and the magical; to the creations of the so-called primitive peoples for new inspirations." - Jaques Vache and Andre Breton "Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." -John Maynard "You know that in our country there were even matriarchal societies where women were the most important element. On the Bijagos islands they had queens. They were not queens because they were the daughters of kings. They had queens succeeding queens. The religious leaders were women too..." -- Amilcar Cabral, Return to the Source, 1973 |
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A1 |
Late to the discussion, but I'm confused as to who exactly qualifies as "new jack" and who is "old jack" and why there is this insistence that the "Old Jack" has done nothing to prepare the "New Jack" for roles of prominence and importance?
Why are people in their 30's and 40's being referred to as "New Jack"? It has already been pointed out that many before us including MLK, Malcolm X, Medgar Evers, and even Mandela (in his younger days) were in their 20's and 30's when they were most active and most effective. What does it say about a generation that they are whining about lack of preparation and old jacks in the way, as they themselves steadily grow gray-er, and wrinkled? How old is too old to be slinging arrows at the "old jacks"? Somebody mentioned technology? Why haven't the New Jacks come into certain organizations and insisted on bringing technological expertise to those organizations? When will New Jacks step to an aging organization and say "Hey, let me show you what can be done with the internet"????The energy of New Jacks is necessary. The wisdom of Old Jacks is necessary. Why are people in their 30's and 40's whining about not being prepared when we've been encouraged to obtain education, encouraged to join organizations, encouraged to open businesses, encouraged to tackle new frontiers our entire lives? Wasn't that the point of the Old Jack struggle? So that we could take full advantage? What type of preparation are we looking for? and is a 36 yr old really a New Jack when a Malcolm or a Garvey or a Biko had already done tons of work by that age? I hate to use a Bushism, but the Old Jack (60yr olds, I presume) can only stand down when the New Jack's and the Baby Jacks (20 somethings) STAND UP. When we speak we are afraid our words will not be heard or welcomed. But when we are silent, we are still afraid. So it is better to speak Audre Lord |
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A1 |
I can only speak from my experience. But none of what you mention corresponds to my experience. Encouragement? nah. And. Yes. I have tried to offer the types of things you mention. You cannot make people utilize your talents and skills. You can only offer. Lastly, we should beware of the abuse of black history. Arguments like, "What are you complaining about? Look at MLK." These arguments are not too far removed from the white who says to the ghetto dweller, "Why are you complaining? Look at Oprah." In other words, they allow us to conveniently miss the point by way of pointing out the exceptional. As for, "old jack" vs. "new jack", I'm not the one who chose these terms. But I might agree that they are ambiguous. In their place, we might refer to those who have institutional power and influence vs. those who don't.
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A1 |
With all due respect, I find this a totally unparallel comparison. The point that's been missed IMHO, is that 30 something is not a baby. 30 and 40 year old brothas and sistas who heap onto the old jacks are wasting time, when they could be organizing, accomplishing, unifying. Ghetto Dwellers and Oprah? NOT. But then again, I'm one who seeks out the counsel of elders in my community when I wish to act in a community building manner. After all, they have been there done that. It doesn't mean I have to do everything EXACTLY as the old jacks say do, but I value the wisdom, guidance, and counsel of the old jack *shrug* When we speak we are afraid our words will not be heard or welcomed. But when we are silent, we are still afraid. So it is better to speak Audre Lord |
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A1 |
I never claimed to be a "baby". I also did not choose the terms "new jack" and "old jack". These were introduced into the discussion by someone else. Anyway. Read my posts above please. I'm done. I'll only say that I've had enough of my own life experiences to justify my opinions (and frustrations) on the matter - at least justify them to myself. PS: My point concerning "Oprah" is about the danger of carrying a discussion by holding up historical exceptions. You mentioned Malcolm, Garvey, and Biko. They are every bit as exceptional (in their own ways) as Oprah. Black history is often "abused" in this way ... and not only by whites.
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Phoenix Rising |
I would imagine if one is over 30 they would not consider themselves the "youth".... I do not think it is possible to place a definitive age cut off line... I think the point is that when speaking of generational gaps... such as for instance between Al Sharpton and a 20 year old.... there is a disconnect... My question still remains... there is something that all can do proactively... but why do we insist that the youth must start over from scratch? Why is there a reluctance for our elders to change... there were examples given... but for me current events are telling enough... Salaam... Peace, Khalliqa "The Goddess emerges as the evanescence of the inferior dissipates.... " |
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Founder |
Many young people seem to be waiting for some official, sanctioned event whereby power is conferred upon them by their elders. Ain't gonna happen. The point is for them to focus more on realizing their vision for the world and spend less time waiting for someone to tell them its OK to do something. That's all. Nobody told Michael Baisden he could or couldn't organize a national march in Jena. He just did it. There's a lesson there. If Eddie Glaude or anyone else wanted to present a vision for African America - who, precisely, would stop him and how? If MLK did it at "26", what's stopping him at "36"?
You lost me here. "President of the Rainbow Coalition" (or whatever) is bourgeois?  Again, the point is just that it seems that many are looking for some kind of formal platform or mantle or title to enable them to do something. Absent those things, they get frustrated and criticize when perhaps more effective effort might be toward "organizing" folks and getting things done. The degree to which some young folks are doing that already directly deflates the arguments that "the mantle" needs to be passed. What mantle?  |
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A1 |
New Black commandment: Thou shalt not abuse black history. MBM, you keep interjecting crap into the discussion that nobody said anything about. Where did somebody say anything about "passing a mantle"? Then you finish off by asking "What mantle?" when YOU are the one who started using the term. You've made an artform out of tangential argumentation. |
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A1 |
Maybe I'm in somewhat of a bubble... Who are these young people(particularly in the activist community) that are 'waiting around' for what amounts to validation? I do see the masses of young people, the directionless and non active, waiting to be instructed on what to do. But that is an organizer's and mobalizer's job(reguardless of age) to 'wring them in'. But with the orgs. that Rowe mentioned alone, and in everyday life in the graassroots orgs., I see many 'young people' stepping up to the plate, they just don't get media coverage. Maybe you are talking about a 'certain' type that I'm not really familiar with, since I deal more with the socialist/militant circle.
Seriousely, I see 2 distinct groups, the active folk and the non-active folk. I think these two groups are getting confused via the fact they belong to the same post civil rights generation(my take on the distinction between 'new' and 'old' jacks).
I really do tend to agree with HB's point about using the individual exception as the rule. Many people in MLK's time didn't bust a grape. And much of the establishment worked against his efforts. In fact, the women who picked and supported him to be the spokesperson for the civil rights movement did so because he was from a small church, so there was no risk of an established big church congregation, or the threat of loosing one, getting in the way.
The rainbow coalistion isn't exactly militant or revolutionary is it? 
The amount of people that were active in the Civil Rights erra, although still just a critical mass, and in no way the majority, were far more numerically than are consistantly active now. We both know that many people taught there children that 'the fight/struggle was over' and that all they/we needed to do was take advantage of the educational and social opportunities provided for us by the hard work of the generation before us. I'm not complaining, because this was not my personal experience, but I can't help but make the observation. This leads to the directionless(as far a social change) and unmotivatedd, unorganized masses. I think this is the 'dropping of the ball' that some are referring to. Also, these peope ereally do think they have to start from scratch, because they are largely ignorant of any other option when they do want to do something.
Egungun, Egungun ni t'aiye ati jo! Ancestos, Ancestors come to earth and dance! "I'm sick of the war and the civilization that created it. Let's look to our dreams, and the magical; to the creations of the so-called primitive peoples for new inspirations." - Jaques Vache and Andre Breton "Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." -John Maynard "You know that in our country there were even matriarchal societies where women were the most important element. On the Bijagos islands they had queens. They were not queens because they were the daughters of kings. They had queens succeeding queens. The religious leaders were women too..." -- Amilcar Cabral, Return to the Source, 1973 |
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A1 |
Thanks Oshun. Hey listen, I'm assuming that, by now, everyone knows Mychal Bell has finally been released from prison. Though marching is an old response to injustice, in the eyes of some, apparently, it is still very effective! So I just want to say that I am very happy for him and his family and for all of us. The outcome of this experience just goes to show that when we pull together, we can get things accomplished. I just hope that we all do our part to keep the fight for justice going.  |
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A1 |
well...i...i...i ..i've never had anyone suggest that I am an abuser of black history before  I chose MLK, Malcolm, Garvey and Biko because they represent a southern brotha, a New York Brotha, a brotha from the Caribbean and a Brotha from Africa. Perhaps they are exceptional, but still representative in that there is no movement without the young people. It's always students, and the young who risk the most, march the most, give the most, and gain the most. It was so with SNCC and it was so in South Africa. I really just don't understand where the concept of the old jacks holding back the new jacks has come from. The body of a rebellion is always the New Jacks, or so I thought. I think as of late, the whole, hip-hop discussion and the resultant cries of "well the older ones didn't teach us" have made me leary of the whole "if only the old heads would blah blah blah" line of rhetoric. When we speak we are afraid our words will not be heard or welcomed. But when we are silent, we are still afraid. So it is better to speak Audre Lord |
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A1 |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Khalliqa:
Why is there a reluctance for our elders to change... Change in what way? When we speak we are afraid our words will not be heard or welcomed. But when we are silent, we are still afraid. So it is better to speak Audre Lord |
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Phoenix Rising |
I was referring to D's post here:
But this wasn't my main point... My main point was I did not understand why there seems to be an insistence that the youth start from scratch... that there is not a responsibility of the old to pave a way for the new... Any suggestions of what the youth should do to assert themselves... assumes that there is non communication from jump... if this is widespread... then the question must be placed before our elders... If my children are bright and feel like they have to bogart a project I'm working on to be heard... then I have not made a place for their voice... and the onus is on me... I'm the elder... As a solution again, I like what D has said here:
Peace, Khalliqa "The Goddess emerges as the evanescence of the inferior dissipates.... " |
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The Watcher |
 ------------------------------ R.I.F. (Reading IS Fundamental)... "There are five dangerous faults which may affect a general: (1) Recklessness, which leads to destruction; (2) cowardice, which leads to capture; (3) a hasty temper, which can be provoked by insults; (4) a delicacy of honor which is sensitive to shame; (5) over-solicitude for his men, which exposes him to worry and trouble." -Sun Tzu |
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