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Founder |
 I just finished watching the last few minutes of a documentary on LINK TV that focused on music and its impact on the fall of apartheid. It ended with scenes of enormous South African crowds at concerts feting Nelson Mandela. As with similar scenes in the past, the documentary made my eyes well up with tears in watching Mandela dance on the stage and rejoice in both his personal and national freedom. To me, Mandela conjures a rich bouillabaisse of emotions. In a world where there are far too few heroes of African origin, Mandela represents a strong black man who stood up under the extraordinary oppression of apartheid. Martin Luther King Jr. said that a man can't ride your back unless it's bent. Nelson Mandela personifies the rarest kind of personal strength and commitment in keeping his back perfectly straight for all those years of political imprisonment. He is the truest of heroes, particularly for those of us of African descent. He is black strength. He is black courage. He is black leadership. He is black power! Our recent radio interview about the American Black Power movement brought that concept top of my mind with me; it particularly sparked questions about the contemporary and practical relevance of the concept. How can people of African decent 'straighten our backs' against all that is weighting us down to unite and regain a measure of power and control over our lives? What does Pan Africanism, practically, mean in 2007? How can a race of people scattered to every corner of the Earth, of many many different ethnicities and languages and experiences all unite under the profound commonality of our link to Mother Africa? Had the incessant pounding of global white supremacy rendered the notion impracticable? As I watched the documentary it hit me that it would take someone with the universal stature of Nelson Mandela to really galvanize us toward a common purpose. Nelson Mandela could do it! Mandela has been the truest of warriors for his people in South Africa. He has fought his battles and has earned his rest. I know he is not a young man. It disappoints me deeply that this fight is probably beyond him now. He saved South Africa. It really is probably unfair to ask him to save ALL of the rest of us too. Despite that, the part of me that yearns for progress on this issue wishes that we could call on him . . . one last time. I really think that Mandela could have sparked African people - wherever they might be - into real action to connect with each other to recognize the union of our experiences as well as the opportunity in at least our practical, emotional, and spiritual convergence. While I am disappointed that the timing might not be right for Mandela to tackle this task, the notion that he might have been able to make real progress toward a Pan African vision inspires me to believe that, despite its obstacles, it can be achieved. For now, I'll savor the warmth of my love for the man - as something of a patriarch of all African people - and still look for what small role I can play in realizing a Pan African dream.
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A1 |
A very interesting consideration.
At first, I thought you were talking about this country. I was wondering how Mr. Mandela would have relavance...how he could gain traction politically. I think Mr. Mandela would have even least liklihood of success on the world stage in galvanizing a movement of people of the African Diaspora. The difficulty would be first be created by the lack of commonality of a very, very widely diverse population...as you pointed out. Language, culture, citizenship, alliances, religions, perception within the (greater) group itself. The ideal is attractive. PEACE Jim Chester African Americans for African America http://iaanh2.org African American Pledge of Unity We stand, Together, after left alone in a land we never knew. We Bind ourselves, Together, with the blood and will of Those who have gone before. From the Bodies of our Ancestors thrown away, from the Pieces of Ourselves left to perish, We rise as One, a New Body in a New Land, a New People in a New Nation. Of Common Mind, Body, and Spirit, By Declaration of our Amalgamated Individual and Personal Authorities, We Are African America. © James Wesley Chester 2004; 2008 You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are. |
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Founder |
Obviously, I respectfully disagree. Name another person from Africa who has greater international awareness, stature, and appeal? Mandela's senior statesman and grandfatherly affect, I think, would have the power to dissolve some of the (trivial) things that divide us. Think about the degree to which African Americans revere the man. Why would you presuppose that he would be held in any less esteem elsewhere? I'm sorry you feel the way you do on this one!  |
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A1 |
I hate to be a 'bubble buster' but I have to speak on what I know.
Mandella was a revolutionary. But Mandella consciousely 'sold out'. Yes, you are reading the post correctly. He sold out, albeit under duress. The economic shituation in S.A. for the majority African populous is largely the same as what it was before the end of apartheid. The white minority is still in economic control. They still control the resources and industry. Mandella consciously dropped the ball on the re-distribution of wealth, and he, as well as other members of the ANC were paid off to do so(literally with millions). The ANC is much like the NAACP is now, They had their revolutionary, 'moment', but they are largely now part of the Bourgeoise, and are no longer a revolutionary organization. The PAC(Pan African Congress of Azania) organization, which was formed in response to the ANC's betrail during the struggle against apartheid(1959) are the true uncompromising heroes. They were the ones, headed by Mangaliso Robert Sobukwe(*never heard of him huh?), who orgnanized the Protest against the Pass Laws, that provoked the Sharpville Massacre, the actual turning point in the anti-aprtheid struggle. Let me give some history to explain where I am coming from. Mandella was jailed for 27 years. 18 on Robben Island. He was moved to another 'cushier' prison(unlike other prisoners) once he agreed to 'comprimise' and 'compile' the new constitution for the country with the 'assistance and approval' of the Declerk government. Who writes a constitution while in prison? This is how the "coalition government of national unity" came to be. No guess as to why Mandella 'accepted' that shared nobel peace prize anymore, huh? I don't know what type of threat, torture, or duress Mandella was under, or if he was just plain out worn down, tired, and therfore easily bribed...but the fact remains he 'caved'. You see, many of the former ANC members traded in the interests of their people for a voice(backed by their former enemy's money) in parlaiment. They traded in the true liberation of the Anazian people's land(economically & politically) for a comfortable position(economically and socially). "In 1963, the S.A. aprtheid government passed a clause which enabled it to detain people after the completion of their sentences. Sobukwe was the only person to be affected by this infamous clause, which became known as the 'Sobukwe clause'. It was renewed annually in parliament. After his release from Robben Island in 1969, Sobukwe was kept under house arrest in Kimberley until his death in 1978. In August 1977, Zephania Mothopeng, the most senior PAC leader after Sobukwe, was detained, and in December of that year, he and 17 others were put on trial for terrorism." So, I disagree that Mandella is the shining star for Pan Africanism. Usually, when the West holds someone up as a hero and promotes them as such, there is a reason(it serves their interests). There is usually a more militant hero(and movement) in history that they are trying to distract the people from identifying with. The West wants Mandella to be the focus because he allowed them to maintain economic control of Africans resources. He didn't threaten their bottom line... Money & Power. Mandella is no Marcus Garvey(or Kwame Nkrumah), he more like an NAACP era W.E.B. Du Bois...but even Du Bois wasn't officially and openly 'paid off.' For further information on this I would suggest reading... The Land is Ours!-The Political Legacy Of Robert Mangaliso Sobukwe by Dr. Motsoko Pheko More info on Dr. Pheko & PAC I didn't just get this information from the book and internet resources, I actually have met with Dr. Pheko and other members of PAC(that were former members of the ANC) that are currently living in Azania(S.A.), many lived in exile while PAC was banned from organizing until 1990. Plus before my encounter with them, I always had my suspicions of why Mandella and Thabo Mbeke's father(a staunch Marxist) fell out and didn't speak for several years while they were imprisoned together. The outcome of things makes this obvious.
Egungun, Egungun ni t'aiye ati jo! Ancestos, Ancestors come to earth and dance! "I'm sick of the war and the civilization that created it. Let's look to our dreams, and the magical; to the creations of the so-called primitive peoples for new inspirations." - Jaques Vache and Andre Breton "Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." -John Maynard "You know that in our country there were even matriarchal societies where women were the most important element. On the Bijagos islands they had queens. They were not queens because they were the daughters of kings. They had queens succeeding queens. The religious leaders were women too..." -- Amilcar Cabral, Return to the Source, 1973    |
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A1 |
I forgot something...
The powers that be...the puppet masters... encouraged Mandella to leave his wife because she still was too militant a voice. She knew what he did...hence the divorce... In African culture you do not publically divorce a womb-man who stood by your side for so many years of incarceration, and had no out of wedlock children and did not contract HIV(the only actual 'proof' of infidelity). that is a socio-cultural no-no(to the degree that it is almost incomprehensible for the western aculturated mind to fully comprehend), and therefore, there were other factors at work...which I have already mentioned. Egungun, Egungun ni t'aiye ati jo! Ancestos, Ancestors come to earth and dance! "I'm sick of the war and the civilization that created it. Let's look to our dreams, and the magical; to the creations of the so-called primitive peoples for new inspirations." - Jaques Vache and Andre Breton "Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." -John Maynard "You know that in our country there were even matriarchal societies where women were the most important element. On the Bijagos islands they had queens. They were not queens because they were the daughters of kings. They had queens succeeding queens. The religious leaders were women too..." -- Amilcar Cabral, Return to the Source, 1973 |
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A1 |
My respect for him dropped several notches
when he tossed Winnie away, after carrying his torch for 27 years... But there are always those who bring up the deaths of those youths in the discussion of Winnie which i still don't believe she had anything to do with. She is a powerful voice still, for african women But Mandela ripped his image to shreds when he callously tossed her in the name of political expedience. When we speak we are afraid our words will not be heard or welcomed. But when we are silent, we are still afraid. So it is better to speak Audre Lord |
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A1 |
You and almost every continental African(conscious or not) I have ever talked to since... Here and abroad. Male and female... and most womb-men in general. Egungun, Egungun ni t'aiye ati jo! Ancestos, Ancestors come to earth and dance! "I'm sick of the war and the civilization that created it. Let's look to our dreams, and the magical; to the creations of the so-called primitive peoples for new inspirations." - Jaques Vache and Andre Breton "Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." -John Maynard "You know that in our country there were even matriarchal societies where women were the most important element. On the Bijagos islands they had queens. They were not queens because they were the daughters of kings. They had queens succeeding queens. The religious leaders were women too..." -- Amilcar Cabral, Return to the Source, 1973 |
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A1 |
You may find this relevent...
A stake in the system There are plush homes in Soweto, right next door to the sea of matchbox houses like those below - and they contain parents worrying about whether to send their children to private schools. But the Government's attempt to defuse protest by creating a black middle class has backfired. Aggrey Klaaste, himself one of those middle-class parents, explains why. There are black South Africans who feel they are living through a dress rehearsal of the blood bath so frequently predicted by political observers. A mother of two daughters in Soweto brought this home to me in a poignant but forceful manner. She is a member of the new black middle class, which was created by white big business to serve as a buffer between white South Africans and the black masses. 'All that my little daughters wish for is to see themselves in tiny tunics sitting beside a desk. You men should be ashamed of yourselves, letting our children fight our battles for you,' Mrs Belede Mazwai said. Like me, she lives in one of those ostentatious middle-class districts that have been given pejorative tags by the masses. It is called (by the people) Selection Park - for the select few. I live in a middle-class area called Prestige Park by the people. My township stands in embarrassed overdress cheek by jowl with the extraordinary conglomeration of matchbox houses and tin shacks that is the rest of Soweto. There is an undercurrent of stress and hostility behind the names Prestige and Selection Parks - a hostility unwittingly created by the white establishment that dreamed up the concept of a black middle class. To try and stall the unrest sweeping the country after 1976, white business created an organisation whose purpose was 'to improve the quality of life in the townships'. The organisation, headed by a former judge, Jan Steyn, was called the Urban Foundation (UF) and the business world pumped millions of dollars into it. Although members of the UF, which has blacks and whites on its board, will swear themselves blue in the face that they are neutral, they are perceived by the people as a pro-Government organisation. Very soon the racy language of the townships had it that they were about to 'improve the quality of oppression'. The formation of the black middle class brought the irony of this out most vividly. After serious but secret lobbying members of the Urban Foundation persuaded the Government to change its policy - and allow black professionals to own homes in urban areas. Until then all black people had been 'temporary sojourners', supposedly just lodging while they worked in the 'white' cities. The Government allowed the loosening of the laws because it hoped that the ownership of palatial homes and heavy mortgages would create a class of blacks that would be less restive. These people, it was hoped, would have too much to lose to help the masses in the struggle for liberation. It has not worked out that way. Not at all. In my township, Diepkloof Extension, there are people who have two or three bathrooms in their homes, two garages and sparkling swimming pools. Here the contradictions of having a black buffer middle class, almost a stone's throw from the vast city of identical homes, hovels and tin shacks, are starkly evident. Laws like the Group Areas Act force black people to live in townships designated for people of the same 'racial category'. But these townships contain nowhere near enough houses. So the old Diepkloof has spawned the most amazing myriad of tin and cardboard shacks inside the tiny yards of the matchbox structures. Most of those who have put up the makeshift hovels have no homes and certainly no hope of ever owning them. Some have no legal permission to be where they are. Hundreds have no jobs. So every time (I think) they cast their bitter eyes on the spread of opulence nearby, on the fatcats across the tracks, they explode into anger. I can understand the reaction. This area is one of the most volatile in Soweto. The anger is often translated into action. And what the Government never bargained on is that this in turn radicalises the middle class black, almost in self-defence. Last year, the monstrous and plainly garish two-storey home of a community councillor (an officer of the hated local authorities who ostensibly run the townships) was attacked and burned. It happened twice. Although there was unease among my neighbours in Diepkloof Extension, the consoling thought was this man was after all a direct arm of the hated system. So an attack on his house made sense. It was hardly surprising then that the Soweto Parents Crisis Committee, which has been addressing the crisis in black education, was started by the middle-class blacks in Diepkboof Extension. The operation seemed at first to reflect the conservatism of their class. But by the time the Parents' Committee held a national conference at the University of Witwatersrand in December conservatism was no longer credible. The demands were radical. They called on the students to go back to school - but only if a number of aggressive conditions were fulfilled. If by March this year they had been granted free education, the end of the state of emergency and the release of all detained students, then the children would stay in school. If not, they would boycott classes once more. In desperation other members of the black middle class have sent their children to white private schools. Some have tried schools outside the townships, even outside the country. The trap is slowly beginning to close on them. This brings us back to Mrs Mazwai. While she and her husband, like me, can probably afford to send their children anywhere for a good education, we are in the buffer state. We are under constant watch from the masses. As soon as it becomes clear that the children in Selection Park and Diepkloof Extension are not attending or boycotting schools in the townships, more swanky houses will be put to the torch. Already some families have had to send for their children, who had fled to boarding schools outside of Soweto. The cause was a night visit from what are termed the 'comrades' - those children who are prepared for 'liberation before education'. The black middle class is a buffer in more ways than one. The buffer will take all the pounding. The people living in this cordon sanitaire are well aware of their plight. They will have to show the rest of the residents of the townships that they are in the struggle. Or lose their wealth, or their lives. Aggrey Klaaste is deputy editor of The Sowetan Newspaper. ------------------------------------------------------- I wonder where the S.A. government got the inspiration to have a 'Black buffer' class from.....hhmmmm... After reading this...anybody who has seen the movie Tsotsi should be able to recognize it for what it was....propoganda(in the interests of the elite). Egungun, Egungun ni t'aiye ati jo! Ancestos, Ancestors come to earth and dance! "I'm sick of the war and the civilization that created it. Let's look to our dreams, and the magical; to the creations of the so-called primitive peoples for new inspirations." - Jaques Vache and Andre Breton "Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." -John Maynard "You know that in our country there were even matriarchal societies where women were the most important element. On the Bijagos islands they had queens. They were not queens because they were the daughters of kings. They had queens succeeding queens. The religious leaders were women too..." -- Amilcar Cabral, Return to the Source, 1973 |
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D5 |
Destroyed farms worth hundreds of millions.
GDP going lower and lower every year since Whites left. Some of the highest crime rates in the world. That is that Pan African dream? I can't think of anything more that Mandela (more correctly his illiterate friends) has brought to South Africa. |
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Phoenix Rising |
 co-signing.... Peace, Khalliqa "The Goddess emerges as the evanescence of the inferior dissipates.... " |
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A1 |
To play Devil's Advocate here... What if the "duress" Mandela was under was the realization of what the forces could do to S.Africa?
You know, the same forces that have been brought to bear against Zimbabwe. MANDELA'S CHOICE: (A) Take the unadulterated 'revolutionary' stand and risk having his people suffer like those in Zimbabwe. (B) Mortgage the 'revolution' and avert chaos and White power-elite backlash/retribution. (C) Take the unadulterated 'revolutionary' stand, risk White power-elite backlash/retribution and have to live with not seizing the moment to stop the bloodshed and his place in history as the symbolic figure, instrumental in, if not responsible for the fall of Apartheid. (D) *** a bit of commentary *** In the Malcolm X thread some of us noted how there is/can be a "process"; steps that can be taken to eventually reach one's ultimate goal. So, did Mandela take all of the above into account and take the view that there had to be a less than ultimately gratifying first step? _______________________________________ Oh and before I get in trouble: The Winnie situation has me co-signing, too! I don't know the details but it was a slap in the face. I think they were saying Winnie was "mad" - as in crazy and overstepped the "revolutionary" bounds handing out 'necklaces' left and right.... On that question/issue, can some of you knowledgeable bros' and SISTERS (damn, ya'll rough on a brother - Mandela lol) educate me and explain this:
 Me and my wife was watching MEET THE FAITH. The topic was male/female relationships. The question of professional women marrying/dating men who make less money. QUESTION: Was Nelson trippin' cause Winnie was "The Mother Of The Nation"? More popular and, perhaps, more powerful (via her popularity and position with the people) than he was??
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Phoenix Rising |
Hey Nmag...  Haven't spoken to you in a while.."Some of us"???? rofl.... Was that you trying to be coy? rofl... Okay, sir... I believe I see your point... I'm not sure that "some of us" would agree totally, but definitely partially... I see Mandela thrown into a situation that did not allow for the time necessary to put together a plan that would yield real results.... He was dealing with the unleashed anger of his people, the shock and embarrassment of the elite,internal jockying for power, criminal intimidation (neighboring mini-wanna be warlords so to speak) and seeming world wide praise.... all rushing very quickly... The scandals that followed... well.. let me say this...Mandela's core focus should've have been known at least by those around him.... the strife, to me was indicative of a tearing away from his more militant leanings... someone should have felt his desire to facilitate real change for his people.... I'm not so sure that was felt.... His easy dismissal of a woman that suffered her love for him for over two decades, and his inability to stay the course with her, was to me, a sign of his inability to stay the course with his people.... Goodnight... Peace, Khalliqa "The Goddess emerges as the evanescence of the inferior dissipates.... " |
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A1 |
You put it better than I did. Honestly, I was just playing DA. I wasn't taking a position and definitely not one to apologize for him because I agree with you:
And I can't... and, better... won't argue this with you:
Ya'll sisters are rough on a brother. I'm trying to stay on ya'lls good side.  Seriously, I have no reason to apologize for Mandela. If nothing else, he should have been outspoken about the farce that was the Truth & Reconciliation. No amount of pressure should make you go out like that. (I hope you saw my question at the bottom of my first post.) Given the chain of events... I have to wonder what was going through his mind because I think he lost it IMO, no matter what Winnie did and how their relationship turned out. . |
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Phoenix Rising |
Nmag, I'm not averse to dissension and differing opinion, if there is any redeeming quality in Mandela's actions that I have missed in this... I'm open to hearing it.... but... I must say, that I am hard pressed to see it... Though,You have my attention... enlighten me... Salaam.... Peace, Khalliqa "The Goddess emerges as the evanescence of the inferior dissipates.... " |
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A1 |
I think you don't understand my poor attempt at humor (about ya'll being rough 'on a brother'). I have no interest in apologizing for Nelson Mandela or speaking to any redeeming qualities. Honestly, I have no problem with your view of Nelson. Indeed, again... I agree with you. I was not trying to make a point. My view doesn't diverge or dissent from yours, much if at all. I think you feel as if I had some motive that I didn't have. You will note (especially if you know what I've said in past) that I am solidly part of "some of us" who view the American Black Nationalism project as a process. I never thought of S.Africa's or Mandela's situation in those terms til now and still have my own problems viewing it that way even with considering Zimbabwe. I have no problem challenging my own thinking and questioning myself to see if I'm consistent. I don't know what I can or need to say to make you understand all that - my poor sense of humor included. You know me... As much as I trip on people being indirect, that's really not my style - my way of making a point. I didn't change anything here.
I simply was not trying to make any point other than playing Devil's Advocate for the sake of discussion; not because I was trying to make a point. |
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Phoenix Rising |
Ahhh... I see... cool...  Peace, Khalliqa "The Goddess emerges as the evanescence of the inferior dissipates.... " |
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A1 |
Obviously, I respectfully disagree.
Name another person from Africa who has greater international awareness, stature, and appeal? Mandela's senior statesman and grandfatherly affect, I think, would have the power to dissolve some of the (trivial) things that divide us. Think about the degree to which African Americans revere the man. Why would you presuppose that he would be held in any less esteem elsewhere? I'm sorry you feel the way you do on this one!---MBM I don't know of another person of African ancestry, wholly or in part, You realize, of course, that should a thing be achieved, it will be the first time for a coalition based color, or continent, or race. Ooops!!!! Second time. The 'white coalition' is worldwide. And...that successful repressive force was not the work of one man, or even an (politically indentifiable)group. PEACE Jim Chester African Americans for African America http://iaanh2.org African American Pledge of Unity We stand, Together, after left alone in a land we never knew. We Bind ourselves, Together, with the blood and will of Those who have gone before. From the Bodies of our Ancestors thrown away, from the Pieces of Ourselves left to perish, We rise as One, a New Body in a New Land, a New People in a New Nation. Of Common Mind, Body, and Spirit, By Declaration of our Amalgamated Individual and Personal Authorities, We Are African America. © James Wesley Chester 2004; 2008 You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are. |
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