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A1 |
In my view, if you play ten intruments well, you're not as talented as someone who can only sing, but sing amazingly.
Nevertheless, I'm with AG on Prince v. MJ. Michael was a reasonably good singer in his day, and he was an excellent dancer and performer. Prince was a reasonably good singer, great dancer and great performer, plus a masterful composer and yes, he played multiple instruments amazingly. I don't think there's any question that Prince is a musical genius. To me, the bottom line is that musical genius beats "King of Pop" any day, all day. Stevie vs. Prince: I hate to do it, but I have to go with Stevie. Same reasons given by AudioGuy. |
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Founder |
So why didn't that genius translate into record sales?
BTW - Prince's biggest selling album was Purple Rain which sold 13 million records in the US. MJ's Thriller sold 26 million in the US. Prince's next greatest selling album was at 2 million units - with nothing else coming close. MJ had at least 7 records with US sales over 2 million units. Even "Invincible" - which BOMBED (and was terrible) - still sold 2 million units domestically. Looking at the numbers, Prince couldn't carry MJ's jock! 
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Bad Mother Fucker |
I don't think that either one has talent. Peace, AudioGuy ************************************************* "I am African, not because I was born in Africa; but because Africa was born in me" -Anonymous "The cost of Liberty is less than the cost of repression." -W.E.B. DuBois, John Brown 1909 "... can you imagine Doobie in yo' funk??!!" -G. Clinton Sense is far from COMMON! ... The tragic irony here is that a lot of African Americans may not fully recognize the implications of this decision for years to come. Stop by any barbershop, barbeque or church basement in Black America and you will hear – with distressing frequency – that old canard that "integration" ruined the Black community. William Jelani Cobb ************************************************* |
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A1 |
You're asking that question of a guy who thinks Jill Scott is more talented than, say, Mary J. Blige. And that Talib Kweli is more talented than 50 Cent. And hold up... I'm not new to you... I know damn well that u agree with me on those artists, as well, Mr. MBM... So nope. Not tryin' to hear it... MJ's sales numbers are 2nd to none, but that can't be part of that equation. ____________________________________________________ |
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Bad Mother Fucker |
How about the fact that MJ had about a 15 year head start?? How about the fact that he came from one of the most popular groups of all time?? Prince established himself as a major artist... by himself!! You of all people should know that sales are not driven by talent - they are driven by marketing. Especially now. If they were driven by talent, Roberta Flack would be one of the greatest selling artists in history... Earth, Wind & Fire would be Kazillionares... Stevie Wonder and Donnie Hathaway would have Bill Gates money... Fertile Ground would outsell the Beatles... I could go on, but I think the point has been made. Talent and records sales have no correlation. Peace, AudioGuy ************************************************* "I am African, not because I was born in Africa; but because Africa was born in me" -Anonymous "The cost of Liberty is less than the cost of repression." -W.E.B. DuBois, John Brown 1909 "... can you imagine Doobie in yo' funk??!!" -G. Clinton Sense is far from COMMON! ... The tragic irony here is that a lot of African Americans may not fully recognize the implications of this decision for years to come. Stop by any barbershop, barbeque or church basement in Black America and you will hear – with distressing frequency – that old canard that "integration" ruined the Black community. William Jelani Cobb ************************************************* |
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Black Ceasar |
 A much better question is who's less talented? Or who more talented between William Hung or Milli Vanilli? "There are two things that are infinite, human stupidity and the universe...and I'm not too sure about the universe." --Albert Einstein |
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Black Ceasar |
Let's just cut to the chase; we're talking about two androgynous and extremely talented "brothers" who are two distinct sides of the same damn coin.
It's like people in clubs who hates or likes either rap music or techno music, despite the fact they like dancing to both forms of music. "There are two things that are infinite, human stupidity and the universe...and I'm not too sure about the universe." --Albert Einstein |
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Founder |
For the sake of argument, could it just be that you particular tastes are not in line with those of the rest of America/the world? Obviously people vote with their dollars. If most have overwhelmingly voted for MJ, then what does that say? |
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Founder |
If that were entirely the case then groups like The Monkees, Milli Vanilli, B2K, Backstreet Boys etc. would still be kicking it. Marketing dollars follow talent. When there ain't no talent, there won't be no marketing. Again, all the marketing in the world couldn't make me into a pop idol. Don't you think people see through Ashlee Simpson? They certainly did at the Super Bowl! BTW - if your hypothesis were true, then Da Band would be on top of the Hip Hop world. In business every investment is designed to make money. Marketing dollars will not be invested in anything that it is not believed will deliver a return. Sure, marketing can enhance someone's luster, but at least in music - IMHO - it can't absolutely make you. Even Janet looks the part and can dance!  Reebie, on the other hand, can't do either, and therefore she's at home sullking. 
While I may agree with you - our tastes are not the mainstream's tastes.
The point that I think you've made is that YOUR particular perception of talent (which I wholeheartedly agree with) is not aligned with the rest of the world's. That's cool though for me. I'm not trying to hang with folks from Jerry Springer. 
In YOUR judgement! BTW - Purple Rain sold 12 million domestic records. Don't you think that there was all of the marketing in the world behind Prince going forward from that? PR made LOTS of people very rich. The one thing you can guarantee about folks is that if they made some from someone once - they'd be more than down to try to do it again. It never happened. It never even came close. |
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A1 |
No doubt about your first question. My tastes are not in line with other people's tastes. But I think there's "taste" on one hand, and "talent" on the other. In music, crafting a popular tune and creating a brilliant work of art are often two different things. And before you accuse me (and us, 'cause I know we have similar tastes) of being a chauvinist, I notice that I'm objective enough to know that sometimes my "tastes" lead me to like songs that I "know" actually aren't very good. I like "1 2 Step" by Ciara, even though I "know" better. I "know" that "Rock Me Amadeus," a joke pop song from the 80s, was no kind of work of art, but that has never stopped me from liking it. And I'm sure there are musical geniuses whose music I can't get into. A lot else goes into sales figures other than just musical talent. Marketing matters. Pop craftsmanship in itself involves marketing principles. The whole structure of a standard pop hit is the result of market-oriented principles. Somebody realized that Verse/chorus/verse-with-a-li'l-extra-oomph/chorus-with-a-little-extra/bridge/chorus/chorus was, for some reason, the formula most likely to result in a hit record. Do you think there's something artistically "better" about that formula that some other one? |
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Bad Mother Fucker |
All the groups you have mentioned self destructed... They all had some internal conflict that caused them to break up. Had MV not been exposed as frauds, they might still be kickin' it - with no talent. Again, another group that imploded. Puffy was trying to prove a point... the point that you do not have to have talent to make it in the industry - Da Band would have made if they weren't fighting each other constantly. Again, Milli Vanilli had no talent... yet, they were the biggest thing since sliced bread - because of marketing!!! Janet is NOT marketed as a DANCER, she is marketed as a SINGER. You said yourself that she couldn't sing
The music industry is based on singing. Whomever puts money behind Janet KNOWS that she cannot sing, has no singing talent - yet they still put money behind her. The music industry is not some ubiquitous monolith that plucks talent from a pool, and then makes them famous. The decision to spend marketing dollars is based upon a lot of ass kissing, ego stroking and couch casting - not any standard formula. Prince has been fighting with his rec.co. since day one, and they chose not to market him the way that he undoubtedly deserved, why? because they knew that his talent was such that they could make money from him w/o spending it. They also knew they could make another prince type, market him a little, and still make money. Unfortunately, he signed a deal back in the day that prevented him from getting out from under them until recently - otherwise he could have had been much bigger, sooner. Peace, AudioGuy ************************************************* "I am African, not because I was born in Africa; but because Africa was born in me" -Anonymous "The cost of Liberty is less than the cost of repression." -W.E.B. DuBois, John Brown 1909 "... can you imagine Doobie in yo' funk??!!" -G. Clinton Sense is far from COMMON! ... The tragic irony here is that a lot of African Americans may not fully recognize the implications of this decision for years to come. Stop by any barbershop, barbeque or church basement in Black America and you will hear – with distressing frequency – that old canard that "integration" ruined the Black community. William Jelani Cobb ************************************************* |
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A1 |
And you know, not that I really credit sales all that much in assessing true talent, but AG raises a great point that I want to build on. How many artists -- honestly, how many PEOPLE -- succeed to the astonishing level he reached, as totally on his own as Prince did? Also, consider that he did it all with one of the strangest, most bizarre personas that we had seen up until that time? He did whatever the hell he wanted to do, really, and was incredibly successful. Even if we look at it in terms of popularity, I can name no one in history who has truly managed to do that and attain the level of popularity he did.
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Founder |
What does "on his own" mean? Who do you think distributed his records? Who do you think produced Purple Rain? All of that was "by himself"?
How about Elvis Presley? All of the above said, he still couldn't hold Mike's jock. |
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A1 |
No, I mean writing, producing, Paisley Park, adhering to his creative vision, and not starting out with a hugely popular group. Creatively, he was as much his own man as any major star ever has been. Elvis??? Borrower extraordinaire? Now I know u're playing devil's advocate.
BTW, What was the name of the black woman who originally recorded "Hound Dog?" I think we can all agree, though, that we can vibe all day listening to the best cuts of both artists... I just may go ahead and put a playlist together. Lessee... track 1, Rock With You; track 2, Kiss; track 3, Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough, track 4... |
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Bad Mother Fucker |
...track 4 - Dance, Music, Sex, Romance, trk 5 - Thriller, trk 6 - Head, trk 7 -
 Peace, AudioGuy ************************************************* "I am African, not because I was born in Africa; but because Africa was born in me" -Anonymous "The cost of Liberty is less than the cost of repression." -W.E.B. DuBois, John Brown 1909 "... can you imagine Doobie in yo' funk??!!" -G. Clinton Sense is far from COMMON! ... The tragic irony here is that a lot of African Americans may not fully recognize the implications of this decision for years to come. Stop by any barbershop, barbeque or church basement in Black America and you will hear – with distressing frequency – that old canard that "integration" ruined the Black community. William Jelani Cobb ************************************************* |
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Bad Mother Fucker |
Big Mama Thorton. Peace, AudioGuy ************************************************* "I am African, not because I was born in Africa; but because Africa was born in me" -Anonymous "The cost of Liberty is less than the cost of repression." -W.E.B. DuBois, John Brown 1909 "... can you imagine Doobie in yo' funk??!!" -G. Clinton Sense is far from COMMON! ... The tragic irony here is that a lot of African Americans may not fully recognize the implications of this decision for years to come. Stop by any barbershop, barbeque or church basement in Black America and you will hear – with distressing frequency – that old canard that "integration" ruined the Black community. William Jelani Cobb ************************************************* |
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Bad Mother Fucker |
PRINCE. What about all the groups that Prince produced? The Time,(indirectly Jimmy & Terry - who produced Janet) Vanity 6, Apollonia, Jesse Johnson?? Q:How many did MJ produce? A: None. As I stated before MJ relied heavily on Quincy to produce his 2 greatest albums - Prince produced all of his own music. Peace, AudioGuy ************************************************* "I am African, not because I was born in Africa; but because Africa was born in me" -Anonymous "The cost of Liberty is less than the cost of repression." -W.E.B. DuBois, John Brown 1909 "... can you imagine Doobie in yo' funk??!!" -G. Clinton Sense is far from COMMON! ... The tragic irony here is that a lot of African Americans may not fully recognize the implications of this decision for years to come. Stop by any barbershop, barbeque or church basement in Black America and you will hear – with distressing frequency – that old canard that "integration" ruined the Black community. William Jelani Cobb ************************************************* |
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A1 |
I'll have to say that Prince is the most influential. Lot of artist out still patterning there music after his.
THAT TYPE OF HONESTY IS BELOW MY PAYGRADE. |
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A2 |
All I know is that Prince still has his original face
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