quote:

Originally posted by MBM:

quote:

Originally posted by EbonyRose:

Does he ever get to "be real"? And if so, when?

Name one African American who is generally considered "successful" in this country who is "real" and somehow not playing 'the game'? Just one . . .

That's what we do - we play the game . . . or . . . we starve.

This is not an answer to ER's question. I am also not sure who the we to which you are referring, but not everyone plays the game to the same extent, for the same duration, and more importantly and the question that I continue to have in the case of Obama is how do you know it to be a game? How do you know that this is not who he is? It is here where I think that the analogy with religion is most appropriate for certain individuals with respect to Obama. They have developed a "theodicy of Obama," theodicy being the field in theology that deals with the justification of God in the face of evil.

Why do bad things happen to God evil? One response, just have faith in God. We can not know the ways of the Divine. This is the best of all possible worlds, it can not be otherwise, etc.

Now replace God or the Divine with BHO. Obama is critical of Jeremiah Wright, criticizes Carter's efforts to talk with Hamas, panders to the Zionist lobbies, questions the efficacy of Affirmative Action, talks about starting a war with Pakistan,.... The response seems to always be, Obama really does not believe these things, or he has to act in this way to become elected and after that he will show his true colors.

But why don't we believe that he is who he says he is, believes what he says. Is that not disingenuous, is that not condescending and dismissive in some respects. In something I tried to post earlier to this thread and somehow I guess I erased it, it seems as if for a lot of AA's that they view Obama as the character of Dan Freeman in The Spook Who Sat By The Door. That somehow he has a covert plan to infiltrate the Oval Office, and then once he is sworn in, he is going to rip off his suit to expose a dashiki, Michelle is going to sprout an Angela Davis afro, and his daughters are going to give the black power salute. The White House will become the Black House, over which will be flying the Red, Black, and Green, or JWC's African-American American flag.

Why should we take Obama as engaging in some kind of signifying? Am I missing something? Is he throwing out signs and cues that I am missing? Is there some kind of special Obamatron/Obamaton/Obamanation secret decoder ring? If so, where do you get it.

quote:

Originally posted by kresge:

Why should we take Obama as engaging in some kind of signifying? Am I missing something? Is he throwing out signs and cues that I am missing? Is there some kind of special Obamatron/Obamaton/Obamanation secret decoder ring? If so, where do you get it.

Let's put it this way. In the last 20 years, what politician running for president on the Democratic side has not had to juggle (or thought he had to juggle) several hats (representing different parts of the electorate)? Playing to the base in one speech ... then cutting to the right in another? saying one thing in a campaign ... but when it comes time to govern ... Openly supporting one set of ideas ... but when it comes time to get legislation passed it's another story?

That's Bill Clinton in nutshell.

Although I don't believe there is a way to read Obama's "inner heart" (no more than with any other politician) ... I'm not sure how reasonable it is to expect 100% (take him at face value at all times) "authenticity" from him either ... ESPECIALLY when it has the look of calculation about it.

Criticizing Israel/embracing a group like Hamas can create controversy nowadays even for academics (who don't rely upon popular election). Geez.

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:

quote:

Originally posted by kresge:

Why should we take Obama as engaging in some kind of signifying? Am I missing something? Is he throwing out signs and cues that I am missing? Is there some kind of special Obamatron/Obamaton/Obamanation secret decoder ring? If so, where do you get it.

Let's put it this way. In the last 20 years, what politician running for president on the Democratic side has not had to juggle (or thought he had to juggle) several hats (representing different parts of the electorate)? Playing to the base in one speech ... then cutting to the right in another? saying one thing in a campaign ... but when it comes time to govern ... Openly supporting one set of ideas ... but when it comes time to get legislation passed it's another story?

That's Bill Clinton in nutshell.

Although I don't believe there is a way to read Obama's "inner heart" (no more than with any other politician) ... I'm not sure how reasonable it is to expect 100% (take him at face value at all times) "authenticity" from him either ... ESPECIALLY when it has the look of calculation about it.

Criticizing Israel/embracing a group like Hamas can create controversy nowadays even for academics (who don't rely upon popular election). Geez.

In the post of mine I accidentally erased, I in fact stated that Obama may well be following the example of William Jefferson Clinton. But leading by poll gave us "don't ask, don't tell", bye bye Jocelyn Elders, Lani Guinier, NAFTA, etc. And to characterize Carter as embracing Hamas is a gross mischaracterization of what I think he is doing. Remember a few months ago when Obama was an advocate of "sitting down and talking to our enemies." Why does this not obtain with Israel. Especially now, when you have the former prime minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, in the last couple of days making comments that 9/11 was one of the best things to happen for Israel.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008%5C04...ory_18-4-2008_pg7_50
Again, I ask, what is this "look of calculation" to which you are referring. I tend toward Sartre in these instances, that existence precedes essence.

His existance that would precede his essense in this instance will have been prior to his running for president, which is not something you can do and keep your hands clean.

I really want him to back-track off of ethanol, the unintended consequences far outweigh the benefits fo ethanol on this nation. Bio-fuels is fucking up the food supply.

quote:

Originally posted by kresge:

This is not an answer to ER's question. I am also not sure who the we to which you are referring, but not everyone plays the game to the same extent, for the same duration, and more importantly and the question that I continue to have in the case of Obama is how do you know it to be a game? How do you know that this is not who he is? It is here where I think that the analogy with religion is most appropriate for certain individuals with respect to Obama. They have developed a "theodicy of Obama," theodicy being the field in theology that deals with the justification of God in the face of evil.

Why do bad things happen to God evil? One response, just have faith in God. We can not know the ways of the Divine. This is the best of all possible worlds, it can not be otherwise, etc.

Now replace God or the Divine with BHO. Obama is critical of Jeremiah Wright, criticizes Carter's efforts to talk with Hamas, panders to the Zionist lobbies, questions the efficacy of Affirmative Action, talks about starting a war with Pakistan,.... The response seems to always be, Obama really does not believe these things, or he has to act in this way to become elected and after that he will show his true colors.

But why don't we believe that he is who he says he is, believes what he says. Is that not disingenuous, is that not condescending and dismissive in some respects. In something I tried to post earlier to this thread and somehow I guess I erased it, it seems as if for a lot of AA's that they view Obama as the character of Dan Freeman in The Spook Who Sat By The Door. That somehow he has a covert plan to infiltrate the Oval Office, and then once he is sworn in, he is going to rip off his suit to expose a dashiki, Michelle is going to sprout an Angela Davis afro, and his daughters are going to give the black power salute. The White House will become the Black House, over which will be flying the Red, Black, and Green, or JWC's African-American American flag.

Why should we take Obama as engaging in some kind of signifying? Am I missing something? Is he throwing out signs and cues that I am missing? Is there some kind of special Obamatron/Obamaton/Obamanation secret decoder ring? If so, where do you get it.

This says everything I could possibly want to say!

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:

quote:

Originally posted by EbonyRose:

Does he ever get to "be real"? And if so, when?

Name one African American who is generally considered "successful" in this country who is "real" and somehow not playing 'the game'? Just one . . .

That's what we do - we play the game . . . or . . . we starve.

If we want to survive we have to be an All American, using your baseball analogy.

quote:

Originally posted by ac9311:

If we want to survive we have to be an All American, using your baseball analogy.

Or at least understanding that this life in America is a game that has rules that we must figure out how to play to OUR benefit.

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:

quote:

Originally posted by ac9311:

If we want to survive we have to be an All American, using your baseball analogy.

Or at least understanding that this life in America is a game that has rules that we must figure out how to play to OUR benefit.

I would contend that there are and have always been other options, in part, the issue goes back to your invoking the notion of success. What exactly, constitutes success is not some objective standard. For some people, success is having a loving family around them, for others, it might be the freedom to pursue various intellectual projects, for others, it might me the accumulation of wealth and articles that for them connote a certain status.

There are people who achieve success by playing "the game" as well as by refusing to play "the game." There are also people who contend that they are going to change the game/the rules, while there are others who believe the game/the rules to be irreparable and are striving to abolish them the totality.

Audre Lorde raises the issue quite eloquently in an essay in her book Sister Outsider, "is it possible to dismantle the master's house using the master's tools." She answered in the negative, that the masters' tools could not dismantle the master's house. She is certainly someone who I believe was a success, albeit probably not by conventional American standards given that she was a black lesbian single mother and cancer victim.

Gee when I say stuff like that, and I say it all the time, I get pointed at. I have even had threads here about that very issue. What is success? How is it defined? How do we think that being successful in the capitalist context does anything to change the context? The truth that it is a very, very rare instance in which being a success in this context does not change the person and they become more defensive of the context than willing to change it.

While I will continue to believe that we do not need to 'be like them' we do need to find a way to be that is comfortable and good for us. Such a thing is not preclusive to the destruction of their system at all, as some are want to beleive. We do not need to destroy what they have to build our own. We simply need to build our own, but we waste so much time and effort on them that we never get our own shit built.

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:

quote:

Originally posted by ac9311:

If we want to survive we have to be an All American, using your baseball analogy.

Or at least understanding that this life in America is a game that has rules that we must figure out how to play to OUR benefit.

I think most people do understand at a certain level that there is a certain level of gamesmanship (if we gotta use sports analogies) to politics. Still gamesmanship cannot take precedence over actually representing the people, you know, the ones we say actually matter in a democracy?

On the one hand, I take my hat off to Obama, because everybody doesn't have the stomach for the gamesmanship and unseemly side of politics, so he has got to be a man of strength. On the other hand, he continually makes irksome comments that make me question his understanding of "how it is" in america. That's been my issue with him all along. Does he really understand "how it is" with respect to affirmative action? welfare? chastising black audiences? anti-war sentiment? However, given his history in illinois, his thoughtfulness as evident in his books, his views as outlined on his website, his devotion to a black wife and children, and several other things, I still find him an impressive candidate..

quote:

Originally posted by kresge:
Audre Lorde raises the issue quite eloquently in an essay in her book Sister Outsider, "is it possible to dismantle the master's house using the master's tools." She answered in the negative, that the masters' tools could not dismantle the master's house. She is certainly someone who I believe was a success, albeit probably not by conventional American standards given that she was a black lesbian single mother and cancer victim.

Audre Lord? wow! I don't think i've ever seen a brotha quote her before. way cool!

I thought about this thread today when I heard that Obama would be speaking about the problem of fatherlessness in the black community


in a big black church in chicago....


no, not THAT big black church,

It irked me to no end to hear that he was planning to lecture yet another black audience, this time on black fatherlessness on fathers day....

juxtaposed against the multiple news channels paying 24 hour tribute to Tim Russert, highlighting his devotion to his dad and his love for his son, even to the extent of writing books about them...

Yes, I know, fatherlessness IS INDEED a problem in the black community but what's wrong with Obama? Does he ever plan to appear before a black audience without chiding/lecturing them? Is he incapable of praising black audiences, loving them up, and pointing out what great americans they are? what sacrifices they've made? How appreciative he is for the opportunity to represent them? speak before them?

I have to admit that i didn't watch his "father's day speech" and haven't seen any clips from it but it was announced several times on MSNBC (in between the blubbering over Russert) that Obama would be speaking to the black community about the problem of fatherlessness...

I'm really getting sick of this tactic. It's blatantly obvious that these type messages aren't really for his black audiences. A big azz church is packed full of women and children, who are intimately familiar with the problem and men who are trying to do the right thing by their families, including attend church with them. They hardly need a lecture. Why would he bring this fake message here? Is it just to show D. Whiteman he's tough on da niggas?

Take your azz to the streetcorner and in the neighborhoods to speak about fatherlessness if you, as a president, feel this is something you must do. While you're at it, tell those brothas about the "change" you plan to bring so they have access to jobs and pride in themselves and a means to care for their children, dammit! tell young naive sistas don't fall for the okey doke of some of these brothas because childbirth without education leads to poverty and you gonna bring "change" for them too... Better yet put together a commission on fatherlessness when/if you get in office, increase support for local community efforts already in place, STFU and lead by example. We already know your personal issues with fatherlessness, STFU and DO something about it

I haven't seen all Obama's speeches, but i've yet to see Obama address a black audience in a totally loving manner. If he can tell white audiences what great americans they are, how they have an opportunity to make history, how he recognizes their sacrifices...

why can't he do it with a sepia toned audience?

I may be totally wrong...but BamBam is losing some more of his luster...

Michelle! you betta talk some sense into dat big ear mofo, will ya?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: negrospiritual,

When we speak we are afraid our words will not be heard or welcomed. But when we are silent, we are still afraid. So it is better to speak

Audre Lord

This was also a hit and run gig. After his little speech, he asked the folks to pray for him and then left before the sermon.

I liked FDR.

Yet, I knew he was not voluntarily working for me, and my circumstance.

I liked Harry Truman.

Even with his abolishing segregated military services, I knew he was not working for me, and my circumstance.

I didn't 'Like Ike'.

He tried to get the Civil Rights Act of 1957 to be more expansive, and inclusive of the neglected rights of African Americans.

I was old enough to vote.

I didn't campaign for him, or any other candidate.

I am ardently for the candidacy of Senator Obama.

His very presence has immediate, and positive effect on me, and my circumstance.

I don't however hold him so close as to expect his full agreement with me and my hopes.

I have not yet seen anything negative to me and my circumstance that he has either said, or done.

I am...still...ardently...in support of his candidacy.

I have not yet found a reason to detract from his candidacy.

PEACE

Jim Chester