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Founder |
You may have missed my edit to qualify my comment. That said, I think it's a hard argument to make to say that gangs are more organized than the black church. I bet the "GNP" of the black church absolutely dwarfs that of revenue produced by gang business. Also, there are plenty of places in this country where there are zero gangs to be found, but where the black church is thriving. Interesting discussion though . . . BTW - OA - what do you think about the earlier discussion in this thread about white supremacy vs. capitalism?  |
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A4 |
~Naaaah, that can't be true. Definitely NOT moreso than church. With or without eliminating gang's negative consequences from the equation, what binds them together and what binds black christians together is like comparing...well, a Club Manual to Thee Bible. ALL so-called "black organizations" are SECOND (or wherever they happen to fall in line). The black church organization is second to NONE. It should be using it's power for good, though. Not that "targeting" black gangs isn't a good place to sink your teeth into. By all means, I think you should go for it. I think it would be good for you.  ~Black Butterfly, sailed across the waters tell your sons and daughters what the struggle brings Black Butterfly, set the skies on fire rise up even higher so the ageless winds of time can catch your wings ----Deniece Williams |
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A2 |
Why aren't those people who are quick to blame immigrants for taking away jobs (that they wouldn't want to do anyway) blaming outsourcing instead? Or, those people who want to discount the economic achievements of minorities by saying these achievements came about because of affirmative action; why aren't those people pointing fingers at the plutocracy as the source of their disadvantage? Why do they continue to miss the forest for the trees? *********************************** “It is certain, in any case, that ignorance, allied with power, is the most ferocious enemy justice can have.†-- James Baldwin |
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A1 |
Egungun, Egungun ni t'aiye ati jo! Ancestos, Ancestors come to earth and dance! "I'm sick of the war and the civilization that created it. Let's look to our dreams, and the magical; to the creations of the so-called primitive peoples for new inspirations." - Jaques Vache and Andre Breton "Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." -John Maynard "You know that in our country there were even matriarchal societies where women were the most important element. On the Bijagos islands they had queens. They were not queens because they were the daughters of kings. They had queens succeeding queens. The religious leaders were women too..." -- Amilcar Cabral, Return to the Source, 1973    |
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A5 |
Yeah. Racism, not only exist, but is used as a 'decoy' to keep many unknowing white folks (in the u.s. at least) eyes off the ball... An overloaded since of 'white superiority', or whatever you wanna call it, blinds many white folks from seeing that they are being had. Consciously and or subconsciously. Many don't believe tihs stinks 'til they smell it, which in this case, is not a good idea. Maybe when more and more so called 'white collared' gigs get outsourced. Those high-tech jobs given to more foreigners may wake them up. Retiring baby boomers are around the corner. Who's gonna fill that void?  >>><<<<>>>><<<<>>>><< "Study the people who took you out of history. Then you'll understand -your history." "For your survival, draw on the intellectual heritage of the whole world, but always start with your own intellectual heitage". --Dr. John Henrik Clarke "Revenge knows few limits when the privileged and powerful are subjected to the kind of terror they regularly mete out to their victims." --Noam Chomsky "Sure there are a few good whites just as much as there are a few bad Blacks. However what we are concerned here with is group attitudes and group politics. The exception does not make a lie or the rule - it merely substantiates it." --Steve Biko |
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Tasmanian Angel |
Being born and raised in L.A. .. and during the time of the formation of the Bloods and the Crips, I may be able to give you a little insight on your project.  And I'd like to start off by saying that that "negative" you say you would like to eliminate is actually an important factor in why they are both bonded and successful. The Bloods-Crips gangbanging feud started out as merely fighting over 'territory' .. namely their neighborhood. The members of one group were not supposed to walk down certain streets that "belonged" to another group, or they would get beat up .. it was not about guns or killing. That started with the advent of the economics/business of the drug trade ... because then big time money was involved. It made them able to buy cars and houses and the things needed to run the operation. And things got really nasty from that point on. What really seemed to bind them though, was the blind, yet total allegiance and acceptance of one another as boys/brothers, girls/sisters. After being accepted through initiation, you could always depend on our gang for total support. Many of these kids did not have a good home life or could not make it through school or had nobody else they felt they could trust or respect. Your gang .. your boys were ALWAYS there for you, though, no matter what! They would clothe you, feed you, get you money ... or die for you if they had to. But that kind of bond centered around the danger that was always present. From protecting the money flow .. to protection from the police .. to protecting the honor of the group .. everyone had to be willing to be a full participant. And that had a lot to do with their bonding. I think the hardest part of trying to duplicate that kind of scenario into an everyday, community-based one would be the fact that Black folks (generally speaking) don't have that kind of sense of unity, trust, allegiance and acceptance of each other. And it takes all of that to be willing to bond together for the greater good. Pettiness, selfishness, lack of concern and consideration would, in my opinion, strongly inhibit the kind of sense of unity that is needed to "guide uniform behavior" as is shown in gangs. And I agree with you that even the church doesn't have/build that kind of connection. It's an individual choice for a collective means ... and in the end, the masses, including those church folks, are ultimately out for themselves. But it'll be interesting watching you try to change that!  BLACK by NATURE, PROUD by CHOICE. Before there was ANY history, there was BLACK history. |
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Founder |
I see it a bit differently. Think about the influence that the church has on people everywhere - all over this planet in fact. Think of the millions of people who are influenced to get together on Sunday at 11:00 AM in every city and hamlet in this nation and the billions everywhere who are moved to action based upon their religion. I don't really even think this is close. A few years ago I went to one of TD Jakes' Mega Fest events. The entire dome in Atlanta was sold out. The crips and the bloods aren't attracting 60,000 people for anything are they? The depth of the relationships may be stronger, but so what? Is that the fundamental factor that determines influence and power?  Again - I would imagine that the revenue created by religion in this country would absolutely dwarf that created by gang activities. Clearly more people are involved in collective religious activities than gangs. Churches have a much broader geographic footprint than gangs. I would even challenge the notion that gang relationships are somehow deeper and stronger than church relationships too. All this clearly does not take away from the fact that there is - no doubt - plenty that can be studied about gangs, but I'm not clear at all about the argument as to why/how gangs are somehow more powerful/influential/better organized etc. than churches. |
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A1 |
Because every thread has to have its obligatory slam against church folk....
When we speak we are afraid our words will not be heard or welcomed. But when we are silent, we are still afraid. So it is better to speak Audre Lord |
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A1 |
That's right. I'm glad we agree.  |
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Tasmanian Angel |
Not hardly. Most people gather all together in the church on Sunday, and they leave out the doors and go and live their individual lives for the next 6 days. If there were more collective events directed at doing "the Christian thing" we might not have as many poor, drug addicted, homeless, at-risk children, or uneducated among us.
Yeah, pretty much. We are talking about two different things here .. you are addressing things from the "capitalist" side of the situation, where I was talking more about the ability to come together and bind in a strong, cohesive unit. To your point, however, the "so what" is that being so strongly connected and dedicated to each other does indeed produce certain power and definitely influence. Just the sight of them terrifies most people. In the areas where they operate, there word is pretty much law .. and all of those who live within that realm of power have to acquiesce to their will. Non-gang members included. Also, though, because they do stick together and have the same goal in mind they are able to achieve the money and power they need to have their lifestyle and handle their business (whatever that may be). And, let me reiterate that I haven't had dealings with gang members in a very long time! However, I was growing up in Cali before there were Bloods and Crips .. I was there during their ascension, through their "truce" and then through the arrival of the Mexican gangs .. which is basically what started it back up. 
I don't think there is any question about that. But a couple of big difference are that gangs don't beg other people for their money to increase their deposits, and two, the money they make is designed for personal lifestyle use .. whereas the church is supposed to be "for the greater good ... or .. whoever!"  Also, the economic enterprise part of gang activity was more borne out of necessity, rather than being a diliberate attempt.It was an afterthought and while important, it does not take precedence over being connected by a deep, bonded, unconditional kinship that keeps them cohesive as one progressive (albeit, dangerous) unit. Which, in my opinion, is a major key to their success. Their unity helps keep them focused, makes them stick together and help each other. They look out for each other's interest and welfare. And thus, they tend to benefit as group.
BLACK by NATURE, PROUD by CHOICE. Before there was ANY history, there was BLACK history. |
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A1 |
Well said ER!  Egungun, Egungun ni t'aiye ati jo! Ancestos, Ancestors come to earth and dance! "I'm sick of the war and the civilization that created it. Let's look to our dreams, and the magical; to the creations of the so-called primitive peoples for new inspirations." - Jaques Vache and Andre Breton "Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." -John Maynard "You know that in our country there were even matriarchal societies where women were the most important element. On the Bijagos islands they had queens. They were not queens because they were the daughters of kings. They had queens succeeding queens. The religious leaders were women too..." -- Amilcar Cabral, Return to the Source, 1973 |
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A1 |
 When we speak we are afraid our words will not be heard or welcomed. But when we are silent, we are still afraid. So it is better to speak Audre Lord |
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A1 |
So I am working off the idea that corporatism and globalism, works to perpetuate white supremacy, which has as its end the reinforcing of a broad value born out and reinforcing white power.---urbansun
I don't perceive the viability of 'white supremacy' being left to the necessary consensus require in the structures of 'corporatism and globalism'. But then you are saying 'perpetuate'. Those mechanisms are working off the foundation of law, primarily. It is law that gives corporatism and, therefore, globalism the continuing structure to function. Law contains the power of the critical opposing political power. Political power supports economic muscle. Yes, it is reciprocal, but... Cart-or-the-horse, and chicken-or-the-egg typifies the rationale here. 'White' political power is sustained by the repression of the power of the vote of African Americans. This has been the 'fight' since the writing of the constitution. Sublimating the argument to 'corporatism and globalism' strikes me as ignoring the reality of socio-political structure of the society. So essentially, my approach is how do we in spite of of post modernisms debilitating effects, create an identity sufficient for coping with and / or overcoming white power as a grand narrative.---urbansum My assessment has been self-determination at the personal level for the past 14 years. All of my observations over that time have only reinforced that conclusion. All of 'post-modernism's debilitiating effects' are supported by our failure to assert ourselves....achieve a parity position...in the society in which we live. The consequences are evident across the board. I am hard-pressed to identify a single 'post-modern effect' being 'visited upon us' that is not, at least, seriously mitigated, if not removed, with the cummulative acheivement of self-determination...personal identity. It is not a simple solution, but... As they say, 'It is a paradigm change.' Such a parity position causes the societal swamp in which we are contained to 'drain'. The 'denizens' of that swamp must seek other quarters, or die. I'm betting such parity position will cause them to do both. My 2-cents. PEACE Jim Chester
African Americans for African America http://iaanh2.org African American Pledge of Unity We stand, Together, after left alone in a land we never knew. We Bind ourselves, Together, with the blood and will of Those who have gone before. From the Bodies of our Ancestors thrown away, from the Pieces of Ourselves left to perish, We rise as One, a New Body in a New Land, a New People in a New Nation. Of Common Mind, Body, and Spirit, By Declaration of our Amalgamated Individual and Personal Authorities, We Are African America. © James Wesley Chester 2004; 2008 You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are. |
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