quote:

Originally posted by Wiz:
White talking black people. Well that is that nasal bullshit where people would have two syllables in the word school. Black people say 'skul' white people say 'sku-ol'.

White people say, "I'm afraid I will need you to elucidate on your previous prognostication regarding our present or future ratification of the statement in paragraph two, section c, part 21. We appreciate your cooperation in this matter an look forward to hearing from you soon."

Yes, this type of extreme wordiness, outside of a legal document (such as a user agreement), is irritating and unnecessary. But . . .

Black people say "Say what?" or "S'cuse me?" or the ever popular. "What the fuck is this shit?"


My point is that the people who would most benefit from your knowledge are disengaged by your choice of words. Ah, I see. In that case, I would want to increase their language skills. Not decrease my own or the general tone of the board. There is a middle ground. I think I heard that most newspapers are written at the 8th grade level. Yes, some posts here go waaaayyyyy over the 8th grade level, but many do not. I am saying that we know that this is the exact kind of behavior that white people have attempted to use against us, because they too think their language over our head And don't you love the look on their faces when they realize that you understand EXACTLY what they said? (have you read a user agreement lately). We know how they use the english language against us to obfuscate and avoid making any sense. So with each other, it is good and respectful that we be clear, concise and so simple a child can understand it, cuz then we are engaged because we feel you ain't tryna bullshit us (like they be doing). The irony is that I was reading a post about europeans being double talking hypocrites (which is true) so then in passing this information on, why would you choose to emulate their double talking and insulting hypocrisy, unless you... well you get the picture.

Here is a question for you. What is wrong with Ebonics that you would not post in it? Or speak it at every opportunity given you? Money?

. . . Ebonics is JUST as irritating and difficult to understand. Having to translate a speaker's words back to English is a barrier to communication. And, of course, money is an issue. I do wordprocessing for a living and certainly would not have been hired without using "regular" English. I'm not aware of there being a market for admin professionals who use Ebonics.

When I ask for clarification on comments I don't understand, it's not typically because of vocabulary, but because the poster is beating around the bush using filler words (sometimes large and unwieldy filler words) instead of just saying their thoughts in plain words.

It is my goal to learn a second language. I have decided on French though. I've never considered Ebonics as a second language.

I find this discussion to be interesting.

Everyone has said something that I don't necessarily disagree with.

Truth is ... that when I go home I talk Ebonics ... more like a mix of Ebonics and Standard English.

I'm not above using Ebonics. I don't regard it as "uneducated". Neither do I regard it as "bad English". My mother talks like that. I'm not gonna snob my mama.

Communication is just that. Communication. The only value of a particular manner of speaking (as pure means of communicating) lies in whether you've accurately communicated your meaning to the person with whom you are attempting to communicate.

In Tanzania, it helps to know some Swahili.

In the hood, it's a good idea not to talk too "fancy".

The way I talk depends upon the person I'm talking to.

I've learned this as a teacher.

Hell... if I can learn French to fulfill my degree requirement ... then why can't I say "He be going to the sto" when I'm among family who speak in that manner?

Having said that ... in this country, Standard English is more or less the lingua franca.

So it's the language I more or less use in a public forum.

It's also the language I use when I wish to condescend ... for the very reasons alluded to by Wiz. "Communication" is a lot more complex than the literal meaning of words.

And, as many of you may know, I don't mind being ghetto either.

Of course, we also know language is used for more than simple communication. It is also used as a means of expressing oneself (via poetry or fiction for example). And the language says as much about the author as it does the intended audience. This fact has been the bane of serious black writers from Paul Laurence Dunbar to Toni Morrison. Who am I? How does that sound in speech? Who am I talking to? Who will they think I am if I express myself thusly? What will my language tell folks about themselves? Will my work be taken "seriously"?

This is the prime reason I never finished that novel ...

This message has been edited. Last edited by: HonestBrother,

I'M AN ELITIST TOO.

quote:

I am rude. It is my make-up. Sorry.

Exactly.

And maybe, just maybe. . .folks around here speak the way they do because it's THEIR 'make-up.'

Who the heck are 'you' to say that it isn't?

And maybe. . .just maybe

folk feel the way they do about the term "Buckwheat" based on their OWN knowledge & experience of the word. Again, who are you to say they're wrong?

You seem to do a lot of 'stereotyping' when it comes to black folk, and this is true to form with condescending white ppl when they come to this forum.

While you [imo] dis folks for using proper English, I think you need to get over yourself. All of us, including black folk, can & will exercise the same prerogative that YOU do

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Of course, we also know language is used for more than simple communication. It is also used as a means of expressing oneself (via poetry or fiction for example). And the language says as much about the author as it does the intended audience. This fact has been the bane of serious black writers from Paul Laurence Dunbar to Toni Morrison. Who am I? How does that sound in speech? Who am I talking to? Who will they think I am if I express myself thusly? What will my language tell folks about themselves? Will my work be taken "seriously"?

This is the prime reason I never finished that novel ...

I will add that the "disconnect" has plenty of historical precedent.

The black writer is forced to choose between a Standard English which is not the language of the masses (her presumed audience and/or subject matter) ... and the language of the masses ... which is despised ....

This message has been edited. Last edited by: HonestBrother,

I'M AN ELITIST TOO.

quote:

Originally posted by OhBlackButterfly:

~I agree, Wiz. Kinda "bourgie" in here at times, huh? Which MIGHT be okay if it wasn't mixed in with VERY common vulgarities, and VERY common "street" dispositions. The way they relate in here is straight up "street". I get a kick out of watching the balancing act, though. You can take 'em out of the 'hood, but you can't take the 'hood out of 'em, I guess.~

Yeah, there's a lot of oxymoronic, hypocritical, bourgie ghetto negroes up in here that will be quick to call somebody 'white' but will brow beat the shit out of you over some middle school mentality nonsense using a superfluous vocabulary yet brag about having taken violin, piano, and ballet lessons when they were in public school all in the same breath.

You'd think some of these people were born in the river Jordan they talk so much 'blackness' but don't know what the hell is going on outside of their own communities. Show me a thread where one of these pro black suckers have talked about volunteering to be a mentor or some other type of community service project or even taught in an inner city school and I'll show you an empty ass thread. And living in a major metropolitan area doesn't make you an intellect or in the know by default. It's interesting how some of them continuously try to criticize how you should address them and how you should respond to their insulting, condescending comments but when you turn the heat up on them they want to cry about being mistreated and leave.

Many of these negroes that are so concerned about the black community and so concerned about the church aren't even Baptist. Hell, some of them are agnostic and atheist but they got all the criticism in the world about who should marry whom and who should associate with whom and who's black and who's not.

quote:

Originally posted by Fabulous:

quote:

I am rude. It is my make-up. Sorry.

Exactly.

And maybe, just maybe. . .folks around here speak the way they do because it's THEIR 'make-up.'

And maybe. . .just maybe

folk feel the way they do about the term "Buckwheat" based on their OWN knowledge & experience of the word. Again, who are you to say they're wrong?

You seem to do a lot of 'stereotyping' when it comes to black folk, and this is true to form with condescending white ppl when they come to this forum.

While you [imo] dis folks for using proper English, I think you need to get over yourself. All of us, including black folk, can & will exercise the same prerogative that YOU do

Actually, if you go back and look at my posts, you will see that I am not hardly as rude as some of your members are or have been. I never said it was not in their makeup, the question is why?

I have never dissed people for using proper english, do not get it twisted, I wonder why they speak in such wordy and obfuscating structures, it is though they are avoiding being understood at all, as in that old sayiung about brilliance and bullshit. I have no problem with standard grammar, use it myself all the time (not a big fan), so again, let me say, it is not the grammar, it is the wordiness and the obfuscation (I like that word) that a lot of posters indulge in, but to what end?

quote:

Who the heck are 'you' to say that it isn't?

That is one of my favorite questions ever. Who the heck do I gotta be?

I'm am me.

quote:

Originally posted by Romulus Burnett:
Yeah, there's a lot of oxymoronic, hypocritical, bourgie ghetto negroes up in here that will be quick to call somebody 'white' but will brow beat the shit out of you over some middle school mentality nonsense using a superfluous vocabulary yet brag about having taken violin, piano, and ballet lessons when they were in public school all in the same breath.

I believe the story about the violin lesson occurred after your sorry azz accused folks of being provincial, unexposed, and in need of "schooling" just because they were ignorant of white hard rock.

quote:

You'd think some of these people were born in the river Jordan they talk so much 'blackness' but don't know what the hell is going on outside of their own communities. Show me a thread where one of these pro black suckers have talked about volunteering to be a mentor or some other type of community service project or even taught in an inner city school and I'll show you an empty ass thread.

You don't know much of anything happening outside your over sized ego.

In fact, I just volunteered for a mentoring program - which starts Friday. I'm involved in a number of other things around my community.

I don't post on everything I do.

If for no other reason than the fact I'll be hesitant to volunteer personal info so that a retard and emotional cripple like you can repeatedly bang away at a single post and use it against me later.

I'll also remind you that Rowe teaches in a public school. Additionally, we have social workers and a few other teachers.

Sister Oshun has traveled widely outside this country.

quote:

And living in a major metropolitan area doesn't make you an intellect or in the know by default.

You're right.

But you're still not an intellect.

Wiz:

I'd like to thank you. Your posts over the last few weeks have made for interesting reading.

I think the summary of your thought is: Know your audience.

If the audience is the 100 or so regular posters on AA.org, then the language is appropriate. If you include lurkers, guests, and by extension, people we don't know that we may encounter outside of AA.org, then you're right: We are offputting & not delivering the message in the most effective manner.

Another fair question to ask is: Are we trying to impress or influence each other by using "all those words"?


I can honestly say that Toastmasters, years of Scrabble, assorted word puzzles and reading for pleasure make me so wordy.

Like HB, I know when I'm adding "extra" to my posts and I'm willing to admit it too.

Nice topic.

"I have to fix the supper now," said Janey.

"I'll help," said Baby Suggs. "You too short to reach the fire."

It was dark when Woodruff clicked the horse into a trot. He a young man with a heavy beard and a burned place on his jaw the beard did not hide.

"You born up here?" Baby Suggs asked him.

"No, ma'am. Virginia. Been here a couple years."

"I see."

"You going to a nice house. Big too. A preacher and his family was in there. Eighteen children."

"Have mercy. Where they go?"

"Took off to Illinois. Bishop Allen gave him a congregation up there. Big."

"What churches around here? I ain't set foot in one in ten years."

"How come?"

"Wasn't none. I dislike the place I was before this last one, but I did go to church every Sunday some kind of way. I bet the Lord done forgot who I am by now."


~ from Beloved

quote:

And the language says as much about the author as it does the intended audience. This fact has been the bane of serious black writers from Paul Laurence Dunbar to Toni Morrison. Who am I? How does that sound in speech? Who am I talking to? Who will they think I am if I express myself thusly? What will my language tell folks about themselves? Will my work be taken "seriously"?

As a writer, I know that it is a problem. I made a serious mistake along those same lines, and it turned out to be a rather interesting learning experience. When I was in college, I was kinda pissed about the current state of black literature, more specifically the disappearance of the contemporary poor from the black literary scene.

There was a lot of historical poor and currently there is a lot of ghetto lit (ganstas, playas...) but there is not really a good literary look at poor people.

So I wrote a book. It is a pretty good book. Originally it was written for people who are not poor to have a better understanding of the people who are. It was ten years after I got out of school I got an agent and two years after that I got an British contract and about two years after that an American one. By that time, I had taken to just giving the book away.

It was published by black people, Urban Books. They generally did ghetto lit stuff and told me that they wanted to begin doing more serious literature. Cool.

So they put a cartoon cover on the book, a fucking cartoon cover, making it look like it was ghetto lit, when it was totally not. I remember how pissed of the first Amazon reviewer was because she wanted ghetto lit and it was nothing like that.

The cover of that book still pisses me off (arrgghhh). It is by the way that writers write, that determines for me if they are writers or storytellers. Most of the published black authors are storytellers and really do not write well at all. But story tellers have their place, like the difference between Tyler Perry and August Wilson.

quote:

Originally posted by HonestBrother:
"I have to fix the supper now," said Janey.

"I'll help," said Baby Suggs. "You too short to reach the fire."

It was dark when Woodruff clicked the horse into a trot. He a young man with a heavy beard and a burned place on his jaw the beard did not hide.

"You born up here?" Baby Suggs asked him.

"No, ma'am. Virginia. Been here a couple years."

"I see."

"You going to a nice house. Big too. A preacher and his family was in there. Eighteen children."

"Have mercy. Where they go?"

"Took off to Illinois. Bishop Allen gave him a congregation up there. Big."

"What churches around here? I ain't set foot in one in ten years."

"How come?"

"Wasn't none. I dislike the place I was before this last one, but I did go to church every Sunday some kind of way. I bet the Lord done forgot who I am by now."


~ from Beloved

I kinda, sorta, maybe get what you're saying with this excerpt.

But an entire book of this would drive me insane. (I've never been able to "get into" Toni Morrison. I haven't tried in a while. Maybe I'll look again.)

I felt that way reading Zora Hurston cuz it was counter as all get out, but you stick with it and realize what a great writer she is.

But the issue here is not Ebonics, it is not standard grammar either, it us the over wordiness that detracts from the meaning if any of the posts.

Hi Wiz,

Cool topic. Yeah, I think I understood your point more after a couple additional posts.

You're cracking me up though with 'obfuscation'. Totally tongue-twisting word. Romulus was ribbing me a while back about using 'facetious'.

Oh, and a nice Mac plug about being able to right-click and look up words.

that is a very cool feature, and now they have added a thesaurus as well, it makes reading and writing a little bit easier.

They also have a google search on the rightclick menu

Interesting confab.

Now Wiz, hear me when I say that I betcha a beer that most people online do not SPEAK in person, the way they WRITE.. precisely because of their audience.

And like DDOUBLE mentioned, sometimes we do what we do in spite of the audience.

And like HB mentioned, I find myself doing the lingua franca thing a lot, especially when I'm on forums with a lot of white people. For example I was sent to a site called Christian Mingle to investigate one of the boards and expose a white patriot element. After I reported my findings, I decided to stick around and chop up game with the people. I find myself, DELIBERATELY, condescending and linguistically hostile even when explaining certain elementary concepts regarding scripture or culture, or "whatever".

The only thing I HAVEN'T done on that site yet is used a "cuss" word, but I sure feel like it, because I'll put my foot up the ass of a white right wing Christian in a minute. Alas, I just pan fry them their own anglo-speak.. book chapter and verse in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic.

So it's quite interesting.. this question of "why" that Wiz is asking.

My question would also be:

"If you know what form of communication that is most comfortable to you, what would the reason, other than effect or emphasis, for not doing it that way all the time?"

You know me, both on boards and off, and I know that I talk about the same on an off the board. To me, it is never an issue of standard grammar vs ebonics. It is always one of intellectual condescenion vs. effective communication.

I made a decision some time ago, that the whiter people talked to me, the blacker I respond to them and it will quickly get to cussin' (but I like cussin' so there)

quote:

Originally posted by Wiz:
You know me, both on boards and off, and I know that I talk about the same on an off the board. To me, it is never an issue of standard grammar vs ebonics. It is always one of intellectual condescenion vs. effective communication.

I made a decision some time ago, that the whiter people talked to me, the blacker I respond to them and it will quickly get to cussin' (but I like cussin' so there)

Yeah, I know that... and I understand.

Now I'm going to assume you equate 'whiter' to bloviating condescension, right?

As far as cussin.. as long as fokes ain't cussin AT me, I'm cool. For emphasis or context.. do ya thang.

or that uber nasal thing.

In fact, I just volunteered for a mentoring program - which starts Friday. I'm involved in a number of other things around my community.

I rest my fucking case.


I don't post on everything I do.

But you can tell us about your pathetic, meaningless little social life in the middle of nowhere in Kentucky and you have plenty of time to follow everyone all over AA.org criticizing every little comment like some kind of efeminant social critic or some flaming homosexual clothing designer at the Oscars. Once again I rest my damn case.

quote:

Now Wiz, hear me when I say that I betcha a beer that most people online do not SPEAK in person, the way they WRITE.. precisely because of their audience.

I speak the same way in person as I do online. Sometimes I'm in a philosophical, educational, intellectual mood and sometimes I feel like just being dirty South. But I don't walk around like I've been appointed by the Nation of Islam to preach the word of blackness to the masses nor do I act like I'm the acting dean at an ivy league university and look down my nose at people that use cuss words from time to time when they post comments.