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A2 |
For black people (well lets just start with america because it is common for us), what is success?
On a personal level? On a community level? On a social level? I have to run, but I will be back to let you know how I think of these things (or piss you off, as I seem to do that without much effort). Knocking jockeys off the lawn for over 50 years |
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A2 |
bell hooks :
And again, I ask, can you end oppression by emulating your oppressors? I rarely hear black people, intelligentsia and otherwise, speak of wealth redistribution as anything near an answer to ending white supremacy and the attached oppression. I do hear a lot about education and entrepreneurialism better jobs and shit like that. But that always appears to be a path creating black slave owners and not ending oppression or white supremacy. I have heard many times that the system has to be changed from the inside, but it has never happened. We have had a black CEO of American Express, but that has not changed anything on the low end. I do not think any better of black capitalists, than white ones. That is their game and you are never going to beat the devil at their own game. I don't think more education is the answer, at least not the kind of education that is currently available at most colleges and universities. There is always a great need for scholarly exploits and such, but I do not see where you need a degree to run a grocery store or to do many of the things that degrees are now required for today. I think entrepreneurism is evil. I think it is nothing more than a trick of capitalist debble to get people beholden to lending institutions and further concentrate wealth and resources against the people who have the greater need for them. It is slightly good if you are the only employee at the business you own, but as soon as you hire any employee you are in the debbles domain because you are forced to exploit someone else, and that is as bad as crack ever was. How do you end white supremacy by emulating white people? How does education, entrepreneurialism, and other engagements in capitalism work to end white supremacy? I know these seem like stupid questions, but I am serious. We would all like to see white supremacy end. For many years we have heard the same solutions over and over, and yet it is as strong as it ever was, if not stronger. Knocking jockeys off the lawn for over 50 years |
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A4 |
The problem Wiz is that you are to closely aligning white supremacy with capitalism when in fact white supremacy is transcendental to economic systems. Even when you move from more to less capitalistic, closer to socialistic and communistic regimes white supremacy is still prevalent.
Why? Because power is the end game, economic systems are just the method. Just like you can take many paths to get home, with home being the objective, there are many economic tools that manifest white supremacy. I disagree with you on a few things, first I think the questions are very valid and we should all be considering them. Second, I disagree with the fact that white supremacy is stronger now. In fact, I would argue that it grows progressively weaker as globalism increases, and post-modernism increase. Here is why, post-modernist argue that what is occurring in modern societies is the fracturing of coming themes that all white people can embrace. What this does is break down internal white unity to a degree. What keeps white supremacy powerful is the generalize cultural unity. This is being attacked by the very systems of thought whites have created - the scientific method. As a black, you are left with a few alternatives, to become a reformer and change the system from within, or to be a revolutionary and create a whole new system counter to the existing system. From your argument I am guessing you are leaning to the revolutionary approach. So I would probably have to throw the question back at you and ask, how can blacks who represented 13% of the American population, are fragmented, and have less resources mount a credible revolution that overthrows white supremacy at this time? |
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A1 |
But it's effects are reduced. I've been to Cuba recently, believe me, the effects of racism and white supremacy are GREATLY reduced. Sate socialism does breed authoritarianism, but it is still superior to capitalism... and there are other forms of socialism.
Capitalism is built on and sustained by exploitation and oppression. Communal economic systems are not. Therefore they are a detrament to white supremacy. There are aspects of Euro-centrism in Marxist Lennonist state capitalism... Mainly because as idealogues they were influenced and their ideas were born from and framed by their culture of origin, and they(and people who followed them) applied aspects of their theories to other cultures as if they were universal... Often, where the same applications may not work(or even be necessary)...
Can you give examples of how it is weaker? I think it is more incidious, but not 'weaker'. I do see the overt military actions that are taking place to maintain it as 'acts of desperation'... But I don't think that comes from a lack of 'general cultural unity' when it comes to the white power structure. I think it originates in the fear that their will be a retaliation by the oppressed/exploited(which is bound to happen, it's just a matter of when). Capitalism isn't a sustainable model. Period. It isn't sustainable socially, and it isn't sustainable environmentally.
How do you make the imperialists become 'kinder gentler oppressors/exploiters'? Especially in this hour of despiration and global consolidation? Are their ever benevolent masters? I don't think so...
I'll take a stab at this... How about by not 'focussing' revolutionary ideals on Amerikkka, but rather on a land base like Africa where there are abundant natural resources, including the human kind(we ain't the minority there). Unfortunately the imperialists are focussing on Africa as well.
Egungun, Egungun ni t'aiye ati jo! Ancestos, Ancestors come to earth and dance! "I'm sick of the war and the civilization that created it. Let's look to our dreams, and the magical; to the creations of the so-called primitive peoples for new inspirations." - Jaques Vache and Andre Breton "Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." -John Maynard "You know that in our country there were even matriarchal societies where women were the most important element. On the Bijagos islands they had queens. They were not queens because they were the daughters of kings. They had queens succeeding queens. The religious leaders were women too..." -- Amilcar Cabral, Return to the Source, 1973    |
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A2 |
You think I align capitalism with white supremacy too much? To me they are the same, white people left to themselves have struggled against each other because of the concentration of wealth and power. Not the power of white people, the power of the wealthy.
Even now they struggle against each other, but how does that sustain white supremacy? Do we desire to end oppression or simply end our oppression? Knocking jockeys off the lawn for over 50 years |
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A2 |
Yes and no. the good thing about our capitalist system is that it makes no laws against more socialist systems that can operate inside of it. Because we are so small, we could do what we wanted. In the basque region of Spain, the worker cooperatives have come to dominate the local economy, without upsetting the whole spanish economy at all. It is a very simple concept and could easily be implemented anywhere and it would serve to do something black capitalists are always crying about an that is circulate money in the black community. Knocking jockeys off the lawn for over 50 years |
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A4 |
Remember, world quality of life didn't dramatically increase until industrialism and capitalism advanced modernity. Secondly, it can be argued that the greatest forms of direct intense oppression occurred under non-capitalist regimes. When Stalin popped off over 100 million of his own people, pol pot, and the laundry list of non-capitalistic government centralized regimes. I recognize that there are other forms of socialism, and I don't even mind exploring them, however I would also argue that at tool is just that. Capitalism is a tool, the engine as it exist today is white supremacy. If you subtract white supremacy then what woudl the tool like? I would argue that that is a great question to ask. We don't live in subsistent economies, I personally reject totalitarianism, which is what socialism ultimately becomes in larger than subsistence economies. Secondly, in terms of Cuba, I think that is an apples to oranges comparison in terms of both scale and history. But like I said, I don't mind exploring alternative forms of economic structures and maybe looking at devising some that never existed.
I don't buy this at all. Just like you submit there are different forms of socialism, I submit there are different forms of capitalism. Secondly since there is no such thing as a truly free market, then the laws that govern capitalism are reflective of whether it is used as an oppressive mechanism or not.
It is weaker for the same reason we criticize ourselves as blacks, lack of unity. If you look back at history, and the rise of America and industrialism based upon the enlightenment, there was a general overarching unifying fundamental perspective in the white world. This has become increasingly fragment and therefore groups have become more decentralized. Now, some indeed do argue that corporatism is now the dominant binding force, but I would argue still that this decentralization and increasing rejection of the previous enlightenment modernist based unification of whites is to the advantage of the non-white. Also if you toss in China as a non-white super power, and the growth of other non-white powers then you start to see the beginnings of the end of white supremacy. The question then becomes does the end of white supremacy, or the weakening of white supremacy equal the end of black oppression. That is worthy to be explored.
Ask socialism that.
To me that is the catch 22 as well. I would make an argument on organization. If we can become more centralized as blacks when others are becoming decentralized we increase our power base and therefore the ability to resist oppression more effectively. |
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A4 |
I think it is definitely something that can be explored. A counter-cultural economic revolution that exist within the black sub-culture. |
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A2 |
I do not care for state sponsored socialism, that is something that will never work out.
But the wonderful thing about worker owned cooperatives is that each person is working together for themselves. Capitalism does need to exploit and oppress in order to be successful to any degree. You said that there are less horrid forms of capitalism. What are they? Every business has one leading purpose (and there is really nothing wrong with it) and that is to make money for the business owner (it is also called some shit about 'increase shareholder value'). So labor is not an investment it is just a cost, and one that has to take cuts if there is no profit. The thing is, if the workers are the only owners, what kind of management, do you think they would hire? How likely would they be to lay themselves off? Knocking jockeys off the lawn for over 50 years |
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A1 |
Wiz,
what are the similarities between the population in the Basque region of Spain and the African American population? Are they regarded as a separate political identity? LIke native americans here? When we speak we are afraid our words will not be heard or welcomed. But when we are silent, we are still afraid. So it is better to speak Audre Lord |
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A2 |
they were just disenfranchised after having lost at an attempt to part from spain and form their own country.
The thing is they were not able to find adequate investment to bring employment to their region because of ethnic differences Knocking jockeys off the lawn for over 50 years |
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A1 |
Quality of life increased for whom? Only the Western world(with the elite lifestyle increasing the most). The masses of humanity are devastatingly poor. Western Industrialization was fueled and funded by slavery and colonialism. These two things were not 'quality increases'.
Oh how we forget about colonialism and slavery... What are you talking about? You seem to accept his-story hook line and sinker. How many Native Amerikkkans were oppressed and exploited? How many Africans? How many wherever colonialism occured? Stalin looked like a nice guy compared to the imperialists.
You need to ask how the 'tool' was forged and for what purose, and with what consiquences. Capitalism required CAPITAL the only way that can be centrally aquired is via exploitation of labour and foreign resources. It is not sustainable without exploitation and oppression... Period.
State socialism has a tendency to become authoritarian in some ways, but I hope you realize that imperialist Capitalism is globally authoritarian... as in 'far beyond it's national borders' authoritarian. State socialism is a better model than the current manifestations of capitalism hands down... and I don't like authoritarianism.
How? Why? You may have limited this discussion to Amerikkka, but I NEVER do.
That's good.
Please share... You object to socialism saying you don't like it's current state socialist applications, but you defend capitalism based on what current forms? They are all oppressing and exploiting the ish out of the world.
When has it not been used that way? How can it not be used that way? I have yet yo see examples.
Amerikkka and industrialism rose from the benefits of stolen land and free labour. Why do you keep skipping over this?
I asked How? When? Examples please? You are stating something that you need to 'back up' with information. Simply restating it isn't backing it up.
Corporatism is a consolidation of global wealth into even fewer hands...
I do think they can be viewed as threats by some western imperialists but if they are playing the same imperialist game(basically copying the method the elite supremacists use), they just then become added threats to humanity...particularly Africa. That isn't an 'improvement' for the masses.
I kinda adressed this above...
I asked state socialism and gave my answer. I've mentioned 'other forms' of socialism that do not lead to authoritarianism, you have yet to describe a non-exploitive/oppressive form of capitalism. 
On this we agree. This centralization(Pan Africanism) coupled with non state socialism is the 1-2 punch IMO. To destroying of the effects of white supremacy and class oppression. Egungun, Egungun ni t'aiye ati jo! Ancestos, Ancestors come to earth and dance! "I'm sick of the war and the civilization that created it. Let's look to our dreams, and the magical; to the creations of the so-called primitive peoples for new inspirations." - Jaques Vache and Andre Breton "Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." -John Maynard "You know that in our country there were even matriarchal societies where women were the most important element. On the Bijagos islands they had queens. They were not queens because they were the daughters of kings. They had queens succeeding queens. The religious leaders were women too..." -- Amilcar Cabral, Return to the Source, 1973 |
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A1 |
A CNN background story on the Basque region of SpAIn
Keep in mind, CNN tends to have a white liberal slant. Still, it's interesting info about who the Basque are and how they are viewed by others in SPAIN When we speak we are afraid our words will not be heard or welcomed. But when we are silent, we are still afraid. So it is better to speak Audre Lord |
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A1 |
an interesting tidbit from wikipedia:
Society The Basque possessed “unique social institutions startlingly different from those of feudal Europe. The Basques never developed an elitist culture, instead appointing a 'Lord of Biscay' by democratic election.... [W]omen held significant power at least as far back as 7 A.D., when the Greek geographer, Strabo, wrote ... of 'a sort of woman-rule - not at all a mark of civilization.'" (Hadington 1992). Historically the Basques have been egalitarian: “Women could inherit and control property as well as officiate in churches. This enraged the leaders of the Spanish Inquisition. One of its most savage mass witch-burnings was staged at the Basque town of Logroño in 1610â€.[15] The striking uniqueness of Basque society and culture continued up into the twentieth century: “Goddess religion, the lunar calendar, matrilineal inheritance laws, and agricultural work performed by women continued in Basque country until the early twentieth century. For more than a century, scholars have widely discussed the high status of Basque women in law codes, as well as their positions as judges, inheritors, and arbitrators through pre-Roman, medieval, and modern times. The system of laws governing succession in the French Basque region reflected total equality between the sexes. Up until the eve of the French Revolution, the Basque woman was truly ‘the mistress of the house,’ hereditary guardian, and head of the lineage†(Gimbutas 2001: 172). When we speak we are afraid our words will not be heard or welcomed. But when we are silent, we are still afraid. So it is better to speak Audre Lord |
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A1 |
Worker Cooperatives in the Basque Region of Spain
...The company was founded in Arrasate, a town in Gipuzkoa known as Mondragón in Spanish. The town had suffered badly in the Spanish Civil War and there was mass unemployment. A young priest, Father José MarÃa Arizmendiarrieta, arrived in 1941 and decided to focus on the economic development of the town, settling upon co-operative methods to achieve his goals. Co-operatives and self-help organisations had a long tradition in the Basque Country but had died away after the War. In 1943, Arizmendi set up a democratically-managed Polytechnic School. The school played a key role in the emergence and development of the co-operative movement. In 1956, five young graduates of the school set up the first co-operative enterprise, named ULGOR (now Fagor Electrodomésticos) after their surnames, which during its early years focused on the manufacture of petrol-based heaters and cookers. In 1959, they then set up the Caja Laboral Popular ("People's Worker Bank"), a credit union that both allowed the co-operative members access to financial services and subsequently provided start-up funds for new co-operative ventures. New co-operative companies started up in the following years, including Fagor Electrónica, Fagor Ederlan and Danobat. It has also extended by inviting other co-operatives to join the group and offering rescue for some failed companies on condition of co-operativization. The group companies give preference to fellow co-operatives. Co-operative workers manage their finances through Caja Laboral, hold health insurances and pension funds at Lagun Aro and have discounts at Eroski markets and on Fagor appliances. Eroski stores are furnished by co-operative trucks. Members may have studied at a group ikastola and extended studies at the Mondragoón University while having a labor stage at a co-operative. When a cooperative has got in economical trouble, workers have preferred to take pay cuts over layoffs. If the situation deteriorates seriously, redundant workers are provided with positions in other group co-operatives. Wow! how astute of them to recognize the need for a school that would help the development of the cooperative. Could Black AMericans do something like this? Form a coopertive? transform a school to support the development of it? (HBCU's come to mind) Spin off other cooperative ventures? Aren't there forms of cooperatives in Israel? and with some women's cooperatives in Africa? When we speak we are afraid our words will not be heard or welcomed. But when we are silent, we are still afraid. So it is better to speak Audre Lord |
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A2 |
As your eyes brighten, you will find that an education to cooperative ventures is essential. I have been evangelizing this for- f'n ever, only to be rebutted by people saying that it can not be done. I do realize there are obstacles, and some may call for a change in the game, but I do think it is a very viable answer to the poverty in our communities.
To me it has the spirit of commmunity that we consider Ancestral ( a few times), but most importantly, it effectively keeps dollars in the community going to create and sustain a local economy. Can you imaginge what it would be like to establish connections between several markets in a cooperative fashion? Well that is what I imagine. What would we have to do to make it work for us? Knocking jockeys off the lawn for over 50 years |
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A2 |
That (Isreal) is more along the lines of communal living than cooperative industry. Cooperative industry is fully functional inside of (as opposed to outside of, or aside from) capitalist society. Knocking jockeys off the lawn for over 50 years |
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