Help me flesh this concept out. I'd love your thoughts/critiques of this. The points are linear and additive - in that they follow from 1 to 6. If any of the previous points are faulty, then the conclusions must also be faulty. The argument is a hypothesis about the differences in black achievement in America. Does this make any sense?

**********************************************************************************************

1) There are differences in measures of performance between blacks and whites in America. This is expressed in differences in median income, average test scores, median net worth, etc. We obviously also see fewer blacks in positions of leadership and power - whether in corporate America, politics, or whatever endeavor. This seems to illustrate that blacks and whites enjoy the fruits of society to different degrees.


2) There are no genetic differences between blacks and whites that would account for the performance disparity above.

3) If you acknowledge that there are differences in achievement (the degree to which one "performs" in society), and that there is not a genetic (internal) source for the difference, then the difference must be as a result of cultural or societal (external) factors.

4) While there are cultural differences between blacks and whites, we all, for the most part, are motivated and driven by similar Western, Judeo-Christian values and objectives, etc.

5) If we can make the argument that blacks and whites are, essentially, genetically and culturally, similar - then it would seem that the only other factor that could generate the disparity between the black and white communities are differences in how society interacts with people based upon their race.

6) The primary causal factor in the disparity between the black and white communities, therefore, is white racism (the difference in how society interacts with blacks versus whites) - which retards and inhibits black achievement and growth.


While some won't think that this is particularly enlightening, what the argument does do, IMO, is appropriately isolate internal versus external factors in understanding where we are and how we got here. This isn't meant to remove responsibility for our fate from our shoulders. Certainly there are cultural factors that we can strengthen to improve our lot. But - for white folks - this argument would seem to highlight their role in the condition of the black community etc.

Anyway - does this make sense?


BTW - some here may dive into the cultural issue and suggest that African America's approach to handling its own problems is the prime factor in our achievement. To that I would suggest that the differences in culture are driven by the differences in our experiences in this country. Therefore, there is nothing uniquely "black" about how African Americans respond/have responded to our environment. I contend that whites, under the same circumstances, would respond in exactly the same ways. Hence, the cultural issue, vis-a-vis achievement, is a "wash". Racism impacts culture, which impacts achievement. If we all, in aggregate, have the same abilities, and share the same aspirations, then the differences that exist are as a result of societal/structural constraints on black achievement as opposed to any innate or cultural disinclination toward achievement.


There is no passion to be found playing small, in settling for a life
that is less than the one you are capable of living. - Mandela

[This message was edited by MBM on December 03, 2003 at 01:28 PM.]

MBM:

I have chosen to go to your summary statement, because it contains a premise I need to resolve before getting into the six pieces.

You said, "I contend that whites, under the same circumstances, would respond in exactly the same ways. Hence, the cultural issue, vis-a-vis achievement, is a "wash". Racism impacts culture, which impacts achievement."

Actually it is the closing sentence that I think is flawed. The earlier statements I can agree with if you saying a direct substitution of "white" for "black" were made.

I think the impact of RACISM on culture is late in the sequence of effect parameters. RACISM does more than simply impact culture. RACISM influences culture. I'm not a sociologist, by any means. Our culture, however, is/was created by us. We cannot allow the concept that our culture is the creation of RACISM. Our culture is our heritage. Our culture is a safe-haven from an overiding, race-driven culture. And maybe that's enough about that.

I'll get to the points.
________________________________________________

1) There are differences in measures of performance between blacks and whites in America. This is expressed in differences in median income,(NOT A MEASURE) average test scores, median net worth,(NOT A MEASURE) etc.

ALLOWING INCONSISTENCY HERE KILLS THE HYPOTHESIS AT ITS FOUNDATION. YOU NEED BETTER EXAMPLES.

We obviously also see fewer blacks in positions of leadership and power - whether in corporate America, politics, or whatever endeavor. This seems to illustrate that blacks and whites enjoy the fruits of society to different degrees.

THIS IS "SELF-FULFILLING". "WHITE" IS THE POWER-BASE OF AMERICA'S SOCIETY. SO THIS IS A TRUISM. THE POINT IS YET TO BE MADE. (corrected: 12.3.03


3) If you acknowledge that there are differences in achievement (the degree to which one "performs" in society), and that there is not a genetic (internal) source for the difference, then the difference must be as a result of cultural or societal (external) factors.

AGREED. AND I THINK VALID.

4) While there are cultural differences between blacks and whites, we all, for the most part, are motivated and driven by similar Western, Judeo-Christian values and objectives, etc.

I THINK "WESTERN" IS TOO BROAD. THE HYPOTHESIS IS/SEEMS TO BE BASED IN THE U. S. DO YOU INTEND THE REACH TO BE THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE?


5) If we can make the argument that blacks and whites are, essentially, genetically and culturally, similar - then it would seem that the only other factor that could generate the disparity between the black and white communities are differences in how society interacts with people based upon their race.

I DON'T KNOW IF IT IS VALID TO MAKE THE LEAP, HOWEVER SMALL, THAT THERE IS NO CULTURAL DIFFERENCE. THERE ARE MAJOR CONSIDERATIONS. GOALS FOR INSTANCE. NEEDS FOR ANOTHER. WITHOUT GOING ANY FURTHER, THESE TWO ARE OUTSIDE OF ACTIVE SOCIETAL TREATMENT. THERE ARE, IN FACT, SIGNIFICANT CULTURAL DIFFERENCES. AND, AS ALLUDED TO EARLIER, "RACE AND COLOR" IS/ARE THE MAJOR INGREDIENTS.



6) The primary causal factor in the disparity between the black and white communities, therefore, is white racism (the difference in how society interacts with blacks versus whites) - which retards and inhibits black achievement and growth.

AGREED, AND VALID.


While some won't think that this is particularly enlightening, what the argument does do, IMO, is appropriately isolate internal versus external factors in understanding where we are and how we got here. This isn't meant to remove responsibility for our fate from our shoulders. Certainly there are cultural factors that we can strengthen to improve our lot. But - for white folks - this argument would seem to highlight their role in the condition of the black community etc.

Anyway - does this make sense?

YES. IT MAKES SENSE. IT ALSO LEAVES THE SAME QUESTION UNANSWERED.

AND SO? WHAT IS THE PATH TO RESOLTION?

NO SERVICE HAS BEEN DONE IF THIS IS LEFT UNADDRESSED. I THINK YOU HAVE DONE AN EXCELLENT JOB OF IDENTIFYING THE PROBLEM WITHOUT THE USUAL HYPERBOLE. DIRECTION FOR RESOLUTION HAS TO BE A PART OF THE HYPOTHESIS.


PEACE

Jim Chester

You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.

[This message was edited by James Wesley Chester on December 03, 2003 at 01:53 PM.]

[This message was edited by James Wesley Chester on December 04, 2003 at 03:21 AM.]

[This message was edited by James Wesley Chester on December 04, 2003 at 04:59 AM.]

[This message was edited by James Wesley Chester on December 04, 2003 at 05:03 AM.]

[This message was edited by James Wesley Chester on December 04, 2003 at 05:13 AM.]

[This message was edited by James Wesley Chester on December 04, 2003 at 06:57 AM.]

[This message was edited by James Wesley Chester on December 04, 2003 at 06:58 AM.]

But, to your point, if 400+ years of our existence is characterized by racism and subjugation by whites - then how could that not impact culture?


There is no passion to be found playing small, in settling for a life
that is less than the one you are capable of living. - Mandela

all other things being equal (other than racism), there is still one factor left out of the equation that bears mentioning.

People who allow themselves to be overwhelmed by a victim-mentality that somehow causes them to not even try something for fear of negative reinforcement will obviously have a harder time succeeding than other people.

This is not a racial phenomenon, inasmuch as every skin color has people who can fall into the "poor-me syndrome". It can be racially triggered by outright racist attacks, subtle hints, or interpretations that could go either way. The difference specifically here between this and an outright racial barrier is that this is an INTERNAL barrier within the person, not an EXTERNAL barrier like a "no blacks" sign.

"You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh

quote:

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Originally posted by MBM:

1) There are differences in measures of performance between blacks and whites in America. This is expressed in differences in median income,(NOT A MEASURE) average test scores, median net worth,(NOT A MEASURE) etc.

quote:

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Originally posted by James Wesley Chester:

ALLOWING INCONSISTENCY HERE KILLS THE HYPOTHESIS AT ITS FOUNDATION. YOU NEED BETTER EXAMPLES.

---

---

James, you've lost me entirely. Median income and net worth are established demographic indices in tracking groups in America. Even if they were not, how could you suggest that disparity between blacks and whites in these fundamental measures is somehow inconsequential?

Can you elaborate on your interpretation of "inconsistency"?

quote:

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Originally posted by MBM:

We obviously also see fewer blacks in positions of leadership and power - whether in corporate America, politics, or whatever endeavor. This seems to illustrate that blacks and whites enjoy the fruits of society to different degrees.

quote:

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Originally posted by James Wesley Chester:

THIS IS "SELF-FULFILLING". SOCIETY IS A POWER-BASE OF "WHITE" AMERICA. SO THIS IS A TRUISM. THE POINT IS YET TO BE MADE.

---

---

I'm confused about your reference to "self-fulfilling prophecy". Are you suggesting that blacks somehow aspire to second-class citizenship? Please elaborate . . . BTW - you make my point, though, when you say that "society is a power-base of "white" America. That is the point precisely.

Further James, how can you disagree with this particular point? Either there is disparity (what you described as a "truism", or there isn't (you say the above point is not made)? Which is it?

Perhaps we're getting tripped up by semantics.

There is no passion to be found playing small, in settling for a life
that is less than the one you are capable of living. - Mandela

[This message was edited by MBM on December 03, 2003 at 02:35 PM.]

quote:

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Originally posted by shebakoby:

People who allow themselves to be overwhelmed by a victim-mentality that somehow causes them to not even try something for fear of negative reinforcement will obviously have a harder time succeeding than other people.

---

I agree. I'd guess it's probably a factor more on an individual basis than a societal or cultural or racial one though. At the end of the day there are under-achievers and over-achievers and then the great masses in the middle.

What do you think?


There is no passion to be found playing small, in settling for a life
that is less than the one you are capable of living. - Mandela

MBM, I could probably quibble with some of the individual premises (as I'm sure others will), particularly #4, but they are all largely "true (?)" or "valid (?)."

I also agree with your response to Shebakoby.

quote:

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This is not a racial phenomenon, inasmuch as every skin color has people who can fall into the "poor-me syndrome". It can be racially triggered by outright racist attacks, subtle hints, or interpretations that could go either way. The difference specifically here between this and an outright racial barrier is that this is an INTERNAL barrier within the person, not an EXTERNAL barrier like a "no blacks" sign.

---

Sheba, what you say would make much more sense if there was never an external basis for erecting an "internal barrier".

To think that "external" barriers need to come in the form of physical signs such as "No Blacks Allowed" signs - i.e. overt, systematic racism - is to deny that there can be systematic racism that is not overt and in the form of blatant practices like Jim Crow segregation.

The problem I have with your analysis is that you will excuse and dismiss racism since it's not the overt, in-your-face "I hate ni@@ers" form yet place so much of an emphasis on a person "not trying" (how you can exactly tell that that is the case, I don't exactly know... though it goes without saying that perhaps some people never try hard enough.)

What is the difference between a "No Blacks" sign and sublte societial "hints" and structural realities that say the same thing?

Seriously, do it take having to have a Stop Sign at a fourway intersection for you to know that you need stop to avoid crashing with cross traffic that is not stoping?

Social conditioning and racism doesn't require "signs" to reinforce the idea of where Blacks belong and don't belong. Overt signs are immaterial to what is communicated by racist practices. The Jim Crow signs didn't enforce "separate but unequal" the people and the system - i.e. laws, institutions, customs, etc. - did.

What I get from you saying that is that you either feel that racism doesn't exist and is just used as an excuse for some not to try... or ...you think that even if there is racism people should be able to overcome it and succeed at the same level that others who don't encounter it do. In effect, you feel that racism is a non-factor either way, if I'm characterizing what you are saying correctly.

The thing is we are talking specifically (by extension) about what African-Americans are faced with and whether there is a mix of "internal" and "external" factors that have a bearing in how things are... MBM, acknowledge both... so your point about the victim-mentality really offers nothing new or something that wasn't "mentioned".

Perhaps you can share what the particular relevance it has to this discussion which is essentially about African-Americans.
Are you saying that Blacks are, in general, "overwhelmed" by the "poor me syndrome" and that's what accounts for the disparity?

(Note: Speaking to what accounts for the disparity is the crux here...)

I for one am not fooled by or could care less for the little disclaimer clause that "this is not a racial phenomenon"... The fact that you feel obligated to say that while your essential message is in fact to convey that you feel (though you are afraid to say it in such frank terms) that Blacks suffer disproportionately from this Victim-Mentality syndrome shows you offered that clause disingeniously, IMO.

I ask you to be straightforward and say exactly what you mean and spare me at least the crap about it not being "racial". That BS is no consolation when you are making an accusation and expressing an opinion for which you have nothing to verify it save you own perception/perspective.

Where is the cross racial study that shows more Blacks are "overwhelmed" or that that syndrome is in fact what contributes to Black under-performance?

I could care less about your opinion. If you have objective information, I will gladly accept that but you can keep the rest of that BS.

What exactly were you trying to say about this actual topic or MBM logic?

quote:

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This isn't meant to remove responsibility for our fate from our shoulders. Certainly there are cultural factors that we can strengthen to improve our lot. - MBM

---

Hmmm... It doesn't seem that you, a non-African American were exactly consulted here... Since I hesistate to think that you are within what is called "OUR"...

Anyway... I'm still trying to understand your point.

quote:

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"...all other things being equal (other than racism)..." - ShebaKoby

---

Huh?

What the hell kind of statement is that?

We are, in fact, talking about the inequities of racism... You can't talk about something that explores the effects of racism and at the same time try to eliminate it from the discussion.

There is no "equality" because of racism and the historical legacy that has laid at least residual yet still systematic forms of racism at our door step to deal with.

This is a discussion on racism. You can't discuss it and try to draw parallels unless you are talking about reactions to similar forms of racism that others have faced that Blacks seem to think they face as well. So instead of citing a "poor me syndrome" you need to be citing racism faced by different ethnic groups and how they responded and what positives we can gleen from that.

You can't discuss this by dodging dealing with racism itself. Sorry, Sheba... You just can't...

quote:

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Originally posted by MBM:
But, to your point, if 400+ years of our existence is characterized by racism and subjugation by whites - then how could that not impact culture?

I said RACISM is late in the sequence of parameters effecting culture. I said that because racism is a construction that effected much more that culture, and before culture was identifiable in African populations in America. I was not trying to negate, or deny the role.

Racism is not a stand-alone. Racism rises from the power created in the construction of chattel slavery. Acknowledging racism as a stand-alone in our society ignores the controlling authority of our society. Our society is what your hypothesis is talking about.

PEACE

Jim Chester


_There is no passion to be found playing small, in settling for a life
that is less than the one you are capable of living. - Mandela_

---

You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.

"Further James, how can you disagree with this particular point? Either there is disparity (what you described as a "truism", or there isn't (you say the above point is not made)? Which is it?

Perhaps we're getting tripped up by semantics."
MBM

I began by thinking the hypothesis was about defining racism. I was wrong. You did say the hypothesis was about "differences in racial achievement." My comment about "not a measure" was addressing measurement of racism. Clearly not what you were addressing.

I may have gotten tripped up here by semantics.

Please disregard the remainder of the post, because it is based on that assumption.

PEACE

Jim Chester

You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.

quote:

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I said RACISM is late in the sequence of parameters effecting culture. I said that because racism is a construction that effected much more that culture, and before culture was identifiable in African populations in America. I was not trying to negate, or deny the role

---

Mr. Chester,

You are quibbling over semantics as usual and, worse of all (as usual), making a completely incongruent argument - i.e. stating things that don't make sense.

There was NEVER a time when "culture" (as you use it generically for some unknown reason) was not "identifiable" among "African populations"... There was never a time that any human population was without "culture" whether you want to claim it as "identifiable" or not.

RACISM as you say referring to it as being part and parcel of chattel slavery cannot possibly be "late" in the sequence of parameters affecting/influencing African/African-American culture [in AMerica]... How can it be "late" when it via slavery accounts for Africans/African-Americans being here in the first place?

You can't separate it from being on the ground floor of Black culture in America.

Again, you are as usual making points of contention out of nothing simply because someone didn't express something in a way you can understand (if you ever tried to) or in the exact words you would use.

What's so amazing is how every time you take exception to something and you're asked to explain yourself, you come up with a mixed bag of garbled, disjointed, contradictory and untenable ideas that either show that you don't know what the hell you are talking about or you are just making this sh*t up as you go without even knowing that you're contradicting yourself.

quote:

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RACISM does more than simply impact culture. RACISM influences culture.

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Just for the sake of knowing...

Can you please tell us what is the difference, in your mind, between "IMPACT" and "INFLUENCE"...

Again, as usual, you quibble of certain terms yet NEVER define or illustrate the distinction you are making. As it is customary with you, I am obliged to submit the functional definitions for the terms involved.

quote:

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• IMPACT: to strike forcefully
  
  
• INFLUENCE:
  1] to affect or alter by indirect or intangible means : SWAY
  2] to have an effect on the condition or development of

---

By the inference you made by saying "RACISM does more than simply impact culture. RACISM influences culture" we are led to believe that "INFLUENCE" is a stronger more exhaustive term when, in reality, it is the weaker of the two. However, in common expressions most people would see the words as interchangeable to some extent. Why you think you have a case for making a naturally "weaker" term into a stronger one is beyond me...

Then, it's rather hard to square the strong statement about RACISM "influencing" *culture* with the idea that RACISM is "late" in the game of "influencing" Black culture in the first place. It's tardiness would seem to suggest that it has had less of an influence - i.e. a weak relationship to at least the "initial" formation. We already dealt with that...

It is you who are trying to separate RACISM as a "stand-alone" as you call it by suggesting that it was "late". But, of course, I don't expect you to acknowledge the twisted and mixed messages you are sending here... I've come to not expect much at all because you don't and won't ever honestly illustrate simple things like your own working definition of the terms YOU take issue with.

Tell the truth! You just wanted to say something...


______________________________________________________________
There's a world of difference between truth and facts.
Facts can obscure truth. - Maya Angelou

quote:

---

Originally posted by James Wesley Chester:
"Further James, how can you disagree with this particular point? Either there is disparity (what you described as a "truism", or there isn't (you say the above point is not made)? Which is it?

Perhaps we're getting tripped up by semantics."
MBM

I began by thinking the hypothesis was about defining racism. I was wrong. You did say the hypothesis was about "differences in racial achievement." My comment about "not a measure" was addressing measurement of racism. Clearly not what you were addressing.

I may have gotten tripped up here by semantics.

Please disregard the remainder of the post, because it is based on that assumption.

PEACE

Jim Chester

You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.

---

With that admission, please disregard my post, Mr. Chester!

"There are no genetic differences between blacks and whites that would account for the performance disparity above."

Thats a widely disputed premise, always has been. We do know there ARE genetic differences, obviously, or we'd all be the same color. So, as devil's advocate, who is to say beyond question that there is nothing genetic that may effect performance in any given culture? How many of us have bragged about our differences, about our superior athletic prowess, our 'natural' rhythm, etc. So to presume no genetic differences effect 'performance' is a very large assumption.

For example, Africa is primarily made up of black folks, who reign over the richest resource laden continent in the entire world. Yet look at Africa, its not particularly improving in any of the ways forementioned. Not especially a Judeo-Christian heritage either.



One major difference between other ethnic groups in this nation, and black folk, has been the involvement of Government. No other race has been so caught up in governmental interference, maternalism, or dependence than has ourselves.

Throughout the nations history, truly poor immigrants of other cultures and lanuguages came to find no social services offered them, no external assistance for the poor, and no sense of being served by government in any way, who was more or less biased against the various groups as they came. Other immigrant groups were forced to make their lot all by themselves, without hope of government safety nets, food stamps, the the myriad of government stipends our community has grown so dependent on over the last 4 decades. I would think that this difference would have profound reach in unity or depth in any particular grouping or ethnicity.

I would have to add that a major reason for some of the disparities and differences you've cited MUST result from the different level of government interference and so-called 'assistance' we've received from government programs.

I mean, how long has it been since a public school child could not be thrown out of a public school for disobedience or disruptive behavior? I will tell you, it started with the civil rights movement of the sixties. Prior to that, disobedience and disruptiveness were not even issues in public schools. It simply wasn't tolerated.

"Give a man a fish, he eats today. Teach him to fish for himself, he eats forever"

There is a whole lot of truth and wisdom in that expression. Other ethnicities were forced to learn to fish for themselves, usually over a few generations. We, over the last 4 decades, have in many ways wholly forgotten how to fish. We tend to think government owes us fish. And THAT is a major factor in our differences in light of performance and determination.

So mbm, I'd say your little listing is to say the least, inadequate, if you were truly surveying the cultural, and achievement environment that exists today between our community and others. And I'm only including one of many other factors that you haven't thought of yet.

[This message was edited by sergeant on December 04, 2003 at 01:23 PM.]

quote:

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One major difference between other ethnic groups in this nation, and black folk, has been the involvement of Government. No other race has been so caught up in governmental interference, maternalism, or dependence than has ourselves.

---

Bullshit! That is the biggest assumption and piece of narrow minded perspectives to ever grace the Internet.

Have you assessed race-by-race all of those things that can be determined as "dependence"?

I doubt it very seriously. Once you do a serious scholarly/scientific evaluation to that effect then let me know. Come back here and lay it all out race-by-race which one received and advocated for what "dependency" benefits.

You have stated YOUR opinion. Now show us you basis for that.

Don't avoid this... this is your opportunity to shine. Show us what you're working with (besides some half-baked, half-cocked, pseudo-intellectual ideas)...

Here! I give you a reference to aid in you Juxtaposition Project. It's a commentary but it contains pertinent info. by which to compare... >> LINK <<

quote:

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I mean, how long has it been since a public school child could not be thrown out of a public school for disobedience or disruptive behavior? I will tell you, it started with the civil rights movement of the sixties. Prior to that, disobedience and disruptiveness were not even issues in public schools. It simply wasn't tolerated.

---

You're saying the Civil Rights Movement is responsible for the lack of school discipline?

SGT. go ahead and admit you're White. Not Black person in their right mind would ever think that "disobedience and disruptiveness" would be tolerated under any Black designed educational regime.

There is no way Black people would ever devalue discipline... that my friend is a cultural fact!

Admit your prejudices and move on...
And stop the BS and madness.

sgt posted,

We, over the last 4 decades, have in many ways wholly forgotten how to fish. We tend to think government owes us fish. And THAT is a major factor in our differences in light of performance and determination.


* he has to be white....the way W is using the gov't and YOUR tax dollars to support big businesses, keep money in the hands of a few white males and even ship the lowest paying jobs abroad is obvious to even a fool. he doesn't understand how whites use the gov't for BIG money and refuse to help others with even LITTLE amounts of their own tax dollars....the cat has to be an antagonistic white......NO black cannot be that lost.....especially if he is over 18 years old.........

quote:

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I will tell you, it started with the civil rights movement of the sixties. Prior to that, disobedience and disruptiveness were not even issues in public schools. It simply wasn't tolerated.

---

Let's see... I came through grade schools in a mixed black/white community and I had Black principals and deans who were quick to put a paddle on your butt..

That was mid to late 70's my friend... I will tell you. You are so off-based. There's not a Black adult from the generations with either direct personal or immediate parental connection to the 60's let alone a Black comedian that who have not pondered how it seems that it is a certain segment of White people (intellectual or otherwise) who devalue discipline.

The damn near universe response from Black people when they first heard of certain discipline ideas like "Time Out"... was... TIME OUT MY ASS!!! Their gonna get their little asses in line.

So you can find the appropriate movement or school of thought to attribute that to. Yes... I can really imagine MLK saying, "I Have A Dream that White boys and Black boys can all go to school together and show their asses... I Have A DREAM!!"



(too stupid! )