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Tasmanian Angel |
The story I posted recently: Oprah vs. Magic: Will Endorsement Race Be a Battle of the Sexes Among Blacks?, and, more precisely, MBM's comment to it, made me ask myself this question this morning.
 I am not one of those Black people who is going to vote for Barack Obama just because he is African American. I do support him and his run to the White House. I wish him the best ... I really do! And I appreciate and applaud the fight he is putting up ... heaven knows I never expected him to be this much in the race in his bid for the presidency. But I'm glad to see he is very much 'in it'. However, I've been waiting for Sen. Obama to show me he is the best person for the job. I've been waiting for a plan ... some plans, actually, to show he's really serious about how he plans to fix this broken country. And, unfortunately, I'm still waiting! The couple that he's come up with for education and healthcare are not the best I've heard.  But, I will concede that I haven't paid him or any of the other candidates close attention as of yet ... just the little snippets through the inept media, so, I'm not prepared to make any final decisions on his effectiveness. Not as of yet, anyway.In his defense, though, it's not like he's lacking far behind anybody else. The other front-runners, Hillary and Edwards, haven't shown me the money either ... which, means that Barack is, again unfortunately, not distinguishable, not apart from everybody else. Except Kucinich. Now there's a man with a plan!! This is the first best chance that an African American is going to even get close to the nomination ... and I would really like to be an even bigger part of this history, by helping to elect the first Black president of the United States. But, not only do I want an African American in office ... I want a person that can straighten out the mess that Bush has created after 8 years of ignorance in affairs both here and abroad. I have a full 6 months before the primary gets to Texas. And it's very likely that the media combined with the Democratic Party, will have already decided who will get the nod before the choice ever makes its way to me. But, I will keep looking for what I'm waiting for Sen. Obama to show me. And if I don't see it from him, I will probably vote for somebody else. But, I don't want that to be a reason for having my Blackness be made suspect, or to be considered not supportive enough of my people. For me to vote my conscious, will I be turning my back on my people?  BLACK by NATURE, PROUD by CHOICE. Before there was ANY history, there was BLACK history. |
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A2 |
Well sista we have to be intelligent. No one Man can do everything, even if he is a The President. Me must understand Barak has to play his hand the best possible way he can to even have a shot at winning. Hillary Clintion is nothing more than a experienced insider, bordering on being a Hawk. She will say whatever the thinks the Audience she is in front of wants to hear. Now I love Dennis, he has a very good plan. But im Going with the Brother, we have had all white people as President, lets support the brother.
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Founder |
Best person? Do you think he is "better" than Bush? If so, then he obviously breaks the threshold of being qualified for the job. Beyond that, have other candidates shown you things that Barack hasn't? We all know that Barack is walking a political tight rope. If he said the same things that Kucinich did he'd be labeled an unpatriotic socialist, right? Proving to the country that he is "mainstream" is his most important job. Obviously no black political extremist - particularly if he is to the far left - will ever sniff the White House. Barack is playing the game - and seems to be doing it relatively well. I love Kucinich, but he can't/won't get anywhere near the nomination. No one takes him seriously. So - in practical terms - we're talking about Hillary and Barack at the moment. That's it. I don't even think Edwards has the kind of national standing to be considered a realistic shot. If it's just those two - as I've asked before - why should an African American vote for Hillary? I'm not saying that there are no reasons - I'm just saying that I haven't heard/figured one out yet.Again - using our current president as the barometer for being qualified to be president, it seems pretty clear that Barack passes the test. Unlike Bush who has never really excelled in anything throughout his whole life - Barack has smarts, has wisdom and judgment, and vision: plus he's right on most issues. I know you're not arguing for her, but if it's a two-horse race, what has Hillary done to earn our vote? If nothing else, Barack's community organizing, civil rights law work, and his public opposition to the war are enough - for me - to put him ahead of Hillary. That fact that he's a brother makes it a first round knock-out!   |
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A1 |
Well ER, you won't be alone. If he is still in it at primary time, I am voting Kucinich. I said it months ago, and I have seen nothing yet to change my mind. Truth is undoubtedly the sort of error that cannot be refuted because it was hardened into an unalterable form in the long baking process of history... Michel Foucault Hope begets many children illegitimately and prematurely. Allie M. Frazier Beware the terrible simplifiers... Jacob Burckhardt  |
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Founder |
As I've said, I LOVE Kucinich, but if it is a somewhat close race between the current top candidates, what is the practical relevance and meaning of a Kucinich vote? To be clear, I am in no way questioning or challenging anyone's right to vote as they please - but at the end of the day, politics is about as much of a pragmatic exercise as anything else. It's about what someone can do for you. It's like Tip O'Neill's comment that 'all politics is local'. In this spirit, what can Kucinich do for you if he has no chance to win? |
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Founder |
BTW, ER - I tried to make a clear distinction between a black person voting for Kucinich because of his stands on the issues versus voting for Hillary. I completely understand a Kucinich vote. Ideologically he's almost perfect. I get that! Heck - he even came out FOR reparations!
 My point is just that I don't understand a Hillary vote - that's all. |
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Tasmanian Angel |
Well, fellas ... the way I see it is like this ...
First of all, while Barack is doing a wonderful job of running in this race, he doesn't realistically have a chance in hell of winning! Hillary is the most popular and highest ranked (poll-wise) candidate running. And, quite frankly, this nomination for her is in the bag. She'd have to do something to lose it. And I just don't see that happening. Be that as it may, though ...giving Obama his due, yet, I agree that he has to run on a "mainstream" level, just to be able to keep his head above water, and while I think I have at least slight problems with that ... that's not a deal breaker for me. He's gotta do what he's gotta do ... and that would definitely include pandering to "Joe & Jane America" while trying to be as "Brotha-like" as he can when he gets into a room where it's just us. And again, that's fine ... I can live with that. You would be hard pressed to convince me, though, that he would stop/change this manner of appeal if/once he took office. If anything, he would have to show more of his "We're all Americans" style coming out of the White House ... which means no special favors for Black folks, other than that which would be included for any/all 'minorities', which would include citizens and illegal immigrants alike! To me this ties in with the fact that, politically speaking, there's really nothing special Barack. He's just another pea out of the same Democratic pod. To elect him or Hillary or Edwards or Binden or Richardson, even ... you're going to get the same result. When it all gets down to the bottom line, they are all special-interest bought and paid for, which mean unsavory alliances with big business and the continued stake being driven through the heart of Black America. So, there's no brownie points waiting for him there, either.To MBM's point about 'qualification' ... no, I cannot join you in measuring his potential with that of GeeDubya. Bush stole/hijacked the election first of all, and was never supposed to be sitting as prez in the first place, I certainly didn't choose him, and never would have based on his "brains" because as having in for a Governor, I already knew he didn't have any!  So, that is an uncomparible argument for me. It's like mixing apples and t-bone steak.However ... one point of qualification, for me, would be someone that understands the severity of the problems this country is facing and to have a plan that can be articulated as to how he/she intends to fix them (and that's domestically and internationally speaking). Barack's attempts at development and articulation of such plans have left me disappointed. Again, his plans are just like everybody elses. So, I'm still waiting and hoping he will do better. Now ... I am not saying that I consider Hillary a better choice, necessarily, than I do Obama. I do believe she has more "hardball" experience .. and probably more international appeal than Obama does, which are also important factors, to me, as to who should be sitting in the Big Chair. But, if it were only a choice between those two, then ... this would be where Barack gets to pick up the "Brotha" nod from me!! Him having a Black Card would probably tilt the scales in his favor for me. I mean, if you're going to get the same thing anyway, might as well show support for our own. But, vote for the man just because he is Black? That conjures up nightmares of the faces of Clarence Thomas, Ward Connerly, Michael Steele and Alan Keyes flashing before my eyes!! Would I vote for one of them were they running for president? I would hope I dropped dead at the booth first! "Just because ..." is simply not good enough for me. I need something better.However ... as Kresge as just pointed out ... there is another choice other than the Democratic Duo and their indistinguishable running mates. There is Dennis Kucinich ... who has laid out the kinds of plans that everybody knows would benefit Black America best ... as well as the country as a whole. He is passed over because he 'can't win', but, to my mind, he is the best man for the job ... and in all liklihood, will be the nominee who gets my vote! Again, Barack will show, may even place, but the win is not gonna happen. This is the Hillary show. Black America needs to support the man/woman who shows the most support for them. To date, that is not the Senators Obama nor Clinton. And any votes for them are pretty much just going along with the (popular) flow .. .just like they are doing to get elected. It's time for a change. BLACK by NATURE, PROUD by CHOICE. Before there was ANY history, there was BLACK history. |
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Founder |
Two words: Howard Dean 
And what other candidate is going to be doing "special favors" for black folks? If nothing else, I trust Obama to get us out of Iraq sooner (saving more black lives) and to appoint more progressive court justices than the other major candidates. If he did nothing else than those two things, that would make him worth voting for in my book.
What politician anywhere is?
The point is that you were questioning Barack's candidacy. I merely mentioned Bush to demonstrate that the bar is really low as it regards qualifications.
Why are you seemingly holding Barack to a higher standard? If everyone is at the same place, why does Barack get a higher level of scrutiny from you?
Doing what? Negotiating with the kitchen staff about the menu for state dinners? 
Not so fast! Who The World Would Elect
Thank you! 
It's not vote for him just because he's black. It's vote for him because he is at least the equal of anyone else running . . . AND he's black.
I'd say that African America should vote for the candidate who they think can do the most for them. To me, that would be a mixture of ideology and electability. |
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A1 |
Hillary is not going to pull a Dean. She has too much savvy for that.
What do you base this on? What evidence do you have for such an assertion?
Kucinich
I agree with ER again. The requirements as laid out in the constitution are minimal: Age and Citizenship requirements - US Constitution, Article II, Section 1 No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty-five years, and been fourteen years a resident within the United States. Term limit amendment - US Constitution, Amendment XXII, Section 1 – ratified February 27, 1951 No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once. So sure, Obama is qualified, but so is my 55 year old cousin who does not have a job and sleeps on his mamma's sofa at night. Truth is undoubtedly the sort of error that cannot be refuted because it was hardened into an unalterable form in the long baking process of history... Michel Foucault Hope begets many children illegitimately and prematurely. Allie M. Frazier Beware the terrible simplifiers... Jacob Burckhardt |
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Tasmanian Angel |
I'm going to try to keep this simple .. but, do you really want to talk Howard Dean??
Howard Dean was an excellent candidate ... who, in all the right areas, ran circles around Al Gore! He was not as popular (which, again, is what it takes in this country to get elected), but, he definitely was the better man for the job!!Dean was booted out of contention simply because he embarrassed the wrong White people with his little cowboy holler .. and they threw him under the bus before he even realized what it was he had said! That's how superficial this country is. And that is why Barack doesn't have a [real] chance here.To just about every other question you posed, my answer is: Dennis Kucinich. Also, if we're talking about making one's vote really count, I have two questions for you: First of all, what does it say to say that there is somebody who "is almost perfect" in his ideology, has come up with plans that do things to support African America (such as end the war, right now!!), supports Reparations ... but, you think you shouldn't support him with your vote!??!! That question ties in with this one, which is: *IF* (and I repeat *IF*) it is true that Hillary already has a lock on the nomination, then isn't a vote for Obama just as wasted as one for Kucinich?? BLACK by NATURE, PROUD by CHOICE. Before there was ANY history, there was BLACK history. |
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Founder |
I disagree. What really makes him unelectable is America's superficial attitude about what the president should look like when he represents us ... especially on the world stage. Kucinich, bless his heart, looks like he still plays with LEGO!  The poor man has done everything he can, done his home work, brings his little box to stand on when he's at the debates to try to get his word out and get heard ... and nobody is STILL paying him any attention!Hey ... here's something for you to chew on: As AA.org's project of the year .. why don't we try to get KUCINICH elected!!??!! 
Good question.
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Founder |
I think it premature to think anyone has a "lock" on anything before the first primary vote has even to be cast. Especially when you look at who has what money in the bank. |
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A1 |
This is the real issue, and this is why I think when the chips are down, that Hillary (as much as I loathe her) will get the nomination. Obama has Oprah, but lets get really real for a moment. Yes, Oprah is a billionaire, but let us not forget that even though Bill Gates may not be the world's wealthiest person anymore, that he can buy and sell Oprah 50x over. Moreover, any one heir of Sam Walton is worth about 15-20 times as much as Ms. Winfrey. We are not even talking about the resources of various multinational corporations, media conglomerates, etc. Truth is undoubtedly the sort of error that cannot be refuted because it was hardened into an unalterable form in the long baking process of history... Michel Foucault Hope begets many children illegitimately and prematurely. Allie M. Frazier Beware the terrible simplifiers... Jacob Burckhardt |
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Founder |
Perhaps, but what does this have to do with Barack or Hillary? They both have about the same money in the bank. It's that money that will be spent on getting them elected. I'm sure Oprah will spend some coin of her own, but like the recent event where $3MM was raised, it was about her putting the right people into the room who could write the big checks. |
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Tasmanian Angel |
Oh damn, MBM!! I deleted your post and switched it with mine on accident!
 I'm sorry!  BLACK by NATURE, PROUD by CHOICE. Before there was ANY history, there was BLACK history. |
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Tasmanian Angel |
Yeah, but Obama's election fund money is not the money that runs this world. That's the real money that's going to decide whether or not Obama sits in that seat. And while raising money for his campaign is a good thing ... a great thing ... Oprah's real contribution is that she can influence minds. Now, just how many and to what degree I guess we'll find out! BLACK by NATURE, PROUD by CHOICE. Before there was ANY history, there was BLACK history. |
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Founder |
But if it were that simple, George H. W. Bush ( a scion of the privileged class if ever there was one) would have beat Bill Clinton - and he didn't. |
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Founder |
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