And I wish, for the life of me, that I could figure out why we spend so much time and energy focusing on trying to make them.

If we are truly interested in coming together and moving ourselves forward in this society, the first and foremost, most important step we can take is to stop worrying about what White people think and trying to prove ourselves so that we measure up to their standards!

We spend more time doing this than we spend trying to measure up to our own greatness! I am amazed at how important it seems to some people to try to show "them" how wrong they are about us. We have been trying to make that happen for the last 400 years, beginning with the notion that we were indeed human beings! And it took 350 before they really started treating us as such.

White people are never going to believe we are their equals, let alone better than them in a lot of ways. They stole accomplishments from us not the other way around ... but, for some reason some people believe that we can't/won't be validated until they give us their seal of approval. Well, newsflash: That's probably never going to happen! At least not for several generations to come.

White people do not care about the facts and figures that show that there is still racism and discrimination against us. To show them that there are more brothas in college than in jail is NOT going to stop them from wanting to build more prisons. It is a money-making operation, and the balance sheet is the only place where facts and figures are important to them. And they don't care if there are more White women on the welfare rolls than Black women .. we will always be "welfare queens" to them .. and making things harder for us is the goal … those White women that suffer because of that are just collateral damage, who will vote to keep them in office, anyway!

White folks couldn't care less about the damage caused to our communities through their legislative acts that keep us in debt, under educated, without adequate housing, lacking in healthcare, in jail or on drugs. And the knowledge that they participate in and perpetuate "White Supremacy" is not going to make them give it up! No white person is going to walk into a bank and say, "Give me the higher Black people's rate .. because what you guys are doing to them is unfair and I don't want to be treated any differently just because I happen to be white!!"

I am seeing this more and more with this whole, "Cosby shouldn't have said what he said to a White audience" argument … which, in my mind is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. So the hell what? Do we think he's putting ideas into their head that weren't/aren't already there in the first place? Instead of concentrating on who he's talking to, the concern should be on the very real issues which his comments are bringing to light.

Are there no Black household situations like the ones he talked about? If so, and he lied, I can see there being something to be upset about. But we do have youngsters who can't read or write to their grade level, but whose parent(s) care more about whether the kid is looking good in a brand new pair of Nikes than whether or not s/he does their homework. There are children in our village born onto a cradle-to-jail (or grave) superhighway due to unattentive parenting, and young people being turned down for jobs because they don't not how to properly speak. That's real. Regardless of whether White people think so or not! Why aren't we talking about that? Oh … because we're too busy talking about Cosby not being credible because 20 years ago, he fathered an illegitimate child!

Here's a dose of real life: My neighbor, right now, is raising both of her grown ass daughters' children. There's 3 in all. She herself is sick, and lives on oxygen, and therefore can't work. Her husband would like to retire … it's past time … but he can't .. because he provides the medical insurance for the (grand) kids! There's a lady three houses down with a similar situation .. only she's raising 5 of her grandkids … all from the same daughter! There's 3 different fathers .. 2 of which are in jail.

Whether that's taking place in the inner cities or the suburbs .. with poor people or those in the middle (or upper) class ... the point is that it is happening waaay too much, and if we don't want White people to see that picture, then we need to erase it from the landscape. And more important than it being something that White people don't see .. is that we don't see it, because it's not there to look at.

It's time we stop caring what White people think about that … and be concerned with how we feel about it. We are the ones that need to start mending these broken households and finding a way to put these children and parents back together. We need to be concerned with what and how our children are learning. Because White people don't care. And until we start talking about these problems and the solutions to them, we're not acting like we're hellof concerned about it either!

White people (in the main) didn't care when they held us in slavery. White people didn't care during the century or so that followed slavery when things were separate and unequal. So, the fact that white people didn't and don't care doesn't change the way we respond to them. That is unless Black people were wrong to fight against slavery and segregation... because White people didn't care.

Such is the ridiculousness of your sentiment/argument.

Black people's struggle to remove the yoke of oppression off their backs has never been contingent on White people caring. So please drop the non-point.

quote:

Originally posted by Nmaginate:

Black people's struggle to remove the yoke of oppression off their backs has never been contingent on White people caring. So please drop the non-point.

Yes and no. We have to make them "care" enough to respond. The CRM was about raising the national level of awareness of the atrocities of Jim Crow such that the country "cared" enough to outlaw it.

It shouldn't matter to us whether white folks like us or care about us personally/culturally, but it would seem that we have to engage with them to the degree that we can force changes in 'the system' that benefit us. If we want to change the legal system and eradicate some of the absolutely ridiculous disparities in the way blacks are treated, then we have to engage with white folks to do so. I hate to say it, but there are large swaths of our future that are dependent upon the degree to which we can push our concerns through 'the system'. The system - at this point - is largely white folks. Part of pushing those things through is marketing our concerns in a way that they care about them enough to act. No?

quote:

Whether that's taking place in the inner cities or the suburbs .. with poor people or those in the middle (or upper) class ... the point is that it is happening waaay too much, and if we don't want White people to see that picture, then we need to erase it from the landscape.

Sounds like you care what White people think via what they see. Thanks for sharing... the truth about your White folk induced embarrassment over the way other Black folk look to White folk.


Note: No one but you put things in terms of what they do/don't want White folks to see in terms of the noted problems in the Black community Cosby, e.g., talked about. So the only person's reasoning you're appealing to is your own. You apparently don't want White people to see it which reveals a lot about you and how you regard White folk and what's part of your motivation... You're one of them embarrassed Negroes. White folk got you feeling embarrassed. And, hell, they even got you pissin' on the legacy and lessons of the struggle that brought us this far. None of which made anything contingent on whether White people cared.

So what? They don't. That doesn't change, influence or impact a thing Black folk do or their/our reasoning for doing it. By all appearances, there are some Black people who don't care about what they're doing that's negatively impacting the Black community, just like White folks don't. But that doesn't stop you. You still seek to address them and that negative situation.

There's some Black people who won't change no matter what you say. Some that have shown no signs of changing, perhaps just like White folk. So, if we follow your logic, we should give up on trying to change things in the Black community because there are some Black people who don't care or won't change.

Makes a lot of sense...

quote:

The CRM was about raising the national level of awareness of the atrocities of Jim Crow such that the country "cared" enough to outlaw it.

Notice how you placed the quotes around "cared." Let's not equivocate or get ahistorical by decontextualizing or not including everything that happened. Jim Crow was not outlawed because of some outbreak of "caring" that occurred among America's White population or its lawmakers.

The changes that were forced didn't occur because some White folk "cared", they occurred because White folk had to make a decision whether they cared or not. And there is no information out there that suggested that they cared or care even today. They were forced to make a decision based on our actions (e.g. boycotts).

quote:

The system - at this point - is white folks. Part of pushing those things through is marketing our concerns in a way that they care about them too. No?

No. You're equivocating or confusing the history. White folk (i.e. the general public) didn't vote in the Civil Rights act. And, again, they didn't just all of a sudden "care" about Black folks' civil rights. They had to make a decision about them. That decision only required that they cared about the Union, like Lincoln did. They could either pass civil rights laws or face civil unrest and a diminished image - and, hence, a diminished leadership role - abroad.

I agree with what you're saying about pressing our concerns but ER's use of the term "care" relates to genuine concern and consideration. No honest reading of the history of the CRM would say that White folks were genuinely concerned about the welfare of Black folks when they passed the civil rights act. They were concerned about themselves, the civil unrest in the country and their self-interests, especially aboard.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Nmaginate,

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http://nquest2xl.wordpress.com/

@Sista EbonyRose... I TOTALLY agree. That's all I'm saying. Excellent commentary

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:
Yes and no. We have to make them "care" enough to respond. The CRM was about raising the national level of awareness of the atrocities of Jim Crow such that the country "cared" enough to outlaw it.

It shouldn't matter to us whether white folks like us or care about us personally/culturally, but it would seem that we have to engage with them to the degree that we can force changes in 'the system' that benefit us. If we want to change the legal system and eradicate some of the absolutely ridiculous disparities in the way blacks are treated, then we have to engage with white folks to do so. I hate to say it, but there are large swaths of our future that are dependent upon the degree to which we can push our concerns through 'the system'. The system - at this point - is largely white folks. Part of pushing those things through is marketing our concerns in a way that they care about them enough to act. No?

No.

While I agree that we will always have to/need to engage in order to get them to press our agenda forward ... how they feel about doing what needs to be done is of little consequence. We want and need their action, not their concern or approval.

While we may hope that they do what's right because it is right and that they will/should be able to see that just from a humanitarian point of view, they can choke on the pen stroke that signs more even and balanced sentencing legislation into law ... but as long as they sign it, it's a done deal and a victory for us!

Of course, it would be better for all concerned if we could play nice together, instead of using hardball tactics, but at this point, we need to use whatever tools are available help us help ourselves. Period. What they think about that, in the long run, is inconsequential. Just that they "do the right thing" is what really matters for us.

quote:

Originally posted by EbonyRose:

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:
Yes and no. We have to make them "care" enough to respond. The CRM was about raising the national level of awareness of the atrocities of Jim Crow such that the country "cared" enough to outlaw it.

It shouldn't matter to us whether white folks like us or care about us personally/culturally, but it would seem that we have to engage with them to the degree that we can force changes in 'the system' that benefit us. If we want to change the legal system and eradicate some of the absolutely ridiculous disparities in the way blacks are treated, then we have to engage with white folks to do so. I hate to say it, but there are large swaths of our future that are dependent upon the degree to which we can push our concerns through 'the system'. The system - at this point - is largely white folks. Part of pushing those things through is marketing our concerns in a way that they care about them enough to act. No?

No.

While I agree that we will always have to/need to engage in order to get them to press our agenda forward ... how they feel about doing what needs to be done is of little consequence. We want and need their action, not their concern or approval.

While we may hope that they do what's right because it is right and that they will/should be able to see that just from a humanitarian point of view, they can choke on the pen stroke that signs more even and balanced sentencing legislation into law ... but as long as they sign it, it's a done deal and a victory for us!

Of course, it would be better for all concerned if we could play nice together, instead of using hardball tactics, but at this point, we need to use whatever tools are available help us help ourselves. Period. What they think about that, in the long run, is inconsequential. Just that they "do the right thing" is what really matters for us.

There's a difference between forcing and convincing. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts of how we're going to force America to do something.

I'm interested in your thoughts, MBM, about how we're going to market and thereby convince America to do something as if there is some kind of good will and conscience to appeal to. That would be exactly what ER is saying isn't there - i.e. White people don't care. I believe there is all kinds of evidence to support that conclusion.

quote:

Originally posted by MBM:
There's a difference between forcing and convincing. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts of how we're going to force America to do something.

Absolutely, there's a difference.

And if force is the way we have to go, we start by being smart about how we go about getting what we want.

I would advocate 'playing the game' by the rules already in place. That's basically what the CRM did. We should take full advantage of our "assets" in Washington, which have always been the Dem Party over the Repubs, so first we need to make sure they are elected in numbers that would be advantageous to us.

From there, we get legislation passed through coersion, if we have to, or by making friends with the Representatives who are more amenable to our causes.

Money talks. If we have to use our economic leverage to make things happen, then so be it. However, usually just the threat of such a move is enough to get people's attention, at least.

We can also strategically move through "friendly" states, getting them to change/adjust their ways and laws, which often makes other states consider their own. Such is the case with the newest movement to crack down on giving benefits to illegal immigrants, and is also the case with the new childcare insurance laws where more and more states are coming up with their own system of covering their residents, because the Federal gov't is failing to produce the necessary legislation.

In essence, we use the system to get what we want. We take the assets of our knowledge, our power, and our money to manipulate the best outcome for our own betterment. It's basically the same thing "they" have done to get to where they are today! If they need a new law to get some other advantage that they don't already have, they send lobbyists up to Capitol Hill, throw money around and before you know it, some scandalous (but advantageous) new law enters the books, and suddenly all our civil liberties are being flushed down the toilet!

That's the way it works in this country. Dog or be dogged seems to be the motto. Only we need to stop being the ones who have to eat the Kibbles 'N Bits. It's time to pass the plate.

quote:

Originally posted by EbonyRose:
And I wish, for the life of me, that I could figure out why we spend so much time and energy focusing on trying to make them.

I have only one question...

Who is doing this?

Ebony you're making good points and correct me if I'm wrong but are you discussing political lobbyism lets say a "BLACPAC" where our goals as African-Americans could be met politically?

quote:

Originally posted by Oshun Auset:

quote:

Originally posted by EbonyRose:
And I wish, for the life of me, that I could figure out why we spend so much time and energy focusing on trying to make them.

I have only one question...

Who is doing this?

People whose attention is more focused on perception than on than the issues themselves. And, I'm not talking about just in discussions here on this board, but in our national and communal discussion as a whole.

When the conversation is more about who is giving criticism than it is about what is being criticized, the focus is more about image than it is about solutions. And, in my opinion, discussing how we are perceived is a waste of time, because in the end, it really doesn't matter. And we would get more benefit and effect from discussing how we are going to address those issues brought to light.

In the current Cosby/Farrakhan debate, both men have leveled criticisms at different sectors of our community. Both men have initiated actions which have helped the Black community in one way or the other, and therefore, both are qualified to level those criticisms. They've (literally) paid their dues. Neither one of them is a saint ... both have had their issues. So, constant conversation pitting one against the other, or trying to prove that one is more respectable than the other while not balancing said conversations with just as much fervor about what each has said ... goes to show where our priorities are lying. And they are not with the issues, that much is for sure!

Discussions that bring up the many ways in which White people are wrong about us are great for knowledge content ... but should not be more conversation-worthy than talking about how we can help those of us in need. ('Cause at the end of the day, that's what the criticism is about ... some of our people are in need ... and we need to come together and address those needs in order to help them out.)

In my opinion, when the conversations are more plentiful on the side of the former than they are of the latter, we are being more concerned with how and what they think and feel than we are about how we and what we are doing. And that needs to stop. We need to make us the center of our focus. And if/when we do that, our time and conversations will be much better spent.

quote:

Originally posted by zodo:
Ebony you're making good points and correct me if I'm wrong but are you discussing political lobbyism lets say a "BLACPAC" where our goals as African-Americans could be met politically?

Yes, zodo .. from a political aspect, a BLACPAC would be absolutely necessary.

But, I am also talking about grassroots solutions, people caring about and helping other people at the local and community level, as well. Pooling together all of our resources, our money, knowledge, political power, our hearts and minds ... whatever works!

quote:

Originally posted by Nmaginate:

quote:

I have only one question...

Who is doing this?

OA, you know it's customary for people who have no argument or those who can't formulate a coherent argument to try to get some practice by setting up their own arguments so they can have something they can successfully attack vs. other people's actual arguments/positions.

It's called a straw man argument. We've seen a couple of versions of it recently with ER either just completely making up stuff like this idea that her debate opponents are trying to get White people to care and we've seen it when she took the statement of one person (you) and assigned it to the MAJORITY.... It was a strawman because she took your 'weakest' argument and attacked it instead of your main argument - i.e. your attempt to answer her question about Cosby vs. Farrakhan.

Nmaginate ...

You are one of two people who are not particularly welcomed down here in my blog, and your participation is tenuous at best.

I am going to give you this warning one time and one time only ... you need to keep your arrogance in check .. it is not welcome here. Please keep your remarks to pertain to the issues of the discussion and refrain from expressing your personal views to attack either myself or any other contributor to this discussion ... or I will erase all evidence of you ever being here.

You need to leave those knee-jerk mannerisms of yours at the door when you enter here, as you managed to do before you posted the above. Because they will not be tolerated. Not here and not by me.

quote:

Originally posted by EbonyRose:

quote:

Originally posted by zodo:
Ebony you're making good points and correct me if I'm wrong but are you discussing political lobbyism lets say a "BLACPAC" where our goals as African-Americans could be met politically?

Yes, zodo .. from a political aspect, a BLACPAC would be absolutely necessary.

But, I am also talking about grassroots solutions, people caring about and helping other people at the local and community level, as well. Pooling together all of our resources, our money, knowledge, political power, our hearts and minds ... whatever works!

On point, my sistah

quote:

Originally posted by EbonyRose:

And I wish, for the life of me, that I could figure out why we spend so much time and energy focusing on trying to make them.

EbRo,

help me understand where you are coming from. What specific behaviors do you view as "spending time and energy focusing on trying to make white people care"?

I must confess, I don't understand why political discussion or analysis, which is necessary for a community to know itself and its status, would be labeled as "focusing on dee whiteman"...*shrug*

quote:

Originally posted by EbonyRose:
People whose attention is more focused on perception than on than the issues themselves. And, I'm not talking about just in discussions here on this board, but in our national and communal discussion as a whole.

Like I said... Who is DOING this?(Please name individuals organizations ect.) Even the people on the board who did the cosby criticism are EXTREMELY action oriented. Properly analyzing a situation from all sides does not 'stop' someone from taking action, but it sure as hell guarantees the propper action will be taken in ALL areas.

quote:

When the conversation is more about who is giving criticism than it is about what is being criticized, the focus is more about image than it is about solutions. And, in my opinion, discussing how we are perceived is a waste of time, because in the end, it really doesn't matter. And we would get more benefit and effect from discussing how we are going to address those issues brought to light.

I made 1, count 1, comment about Cosby's character. The rest of the criticism was on the IMBALANCE in his message. Which has been completely ignored and skipped around, to the point where there has not been an adequate defense, explanation, or reason given for the imbalance.

quote:

In the current Cosby/Farrakhan debate, both men have leveled criticisms at different sectors of our community. Both men have initiated actions which have helped the Black community in one way or the other, and therefore, both are qualified to level those criticisms. They've (literally) paid their dues. Neither one of them is a saint ... both have had their issues. So, constant conversation pitting one against the other, or trying to prove that one is more respectable than the other while not balancing said conversations with just as much fervor about what each has said ... goes to show where our priorities are lying. And they are not with the issues, that much is for sure!

As someone who is a self proclaimed activist, I have the right(as does anyone who is LOGICAL) to criticize an imblanced argument coming from Cosby, because to neglect all aspects of a situation leads to improper and incomplete action(and sometimes the focus on the secondary contraditction rather than the primary one). A.K.A. a dog chacing it's tail, thinking that all action is productive action...which isn't the case. To dismiss structural and institutional racism is not 'proving ourselves to white folks', or worrying about what they think about us. If anything, for me, to point out systemic sissues is to try to get people off their asses to work to dismantle(a.k.a destroy) said system via organizational work. That's hardly an improper focus.

quote:

Discussions that bring up the many ways in which White people are wrong about us are great for knowledge content ... but should not be more conversation-worthy than talking about how we can help those of us in need. ('Cause at the end of the day, that's what the criticism is about ... some of our people are in need ... and we need to come together and address those needs in order to help them out.)

This is a discussion board. Things DONE on the local and community level are DONE and discussed at that level. A.K.A. this board is about knowledge. Our people DO NOT in mass understand how incidious white supremacy is, or how it functions(IMO the whole idea of dismissing focus on it, and it's mechanisms is proof of this). What you have mentioned is discussion worthy, at your local organizational level(could have sworn I stress that!)... because that is where the work is being done. For me, to discuss the local soup kitchen, charity drive, educational seminar, ethno-aggregation non-profit, or neighborhood planning committee, I or anyone else is actively involved in, on an national/international discussion board is silly, because that is stuff we must do on the local/communitee level and it's structure and the procedures needed to implement vary from state to state, city to city, and county to county. On the other hand to complete leave out the structural/ institutional mechanisms of white suprmacy on a discussion board is... well... crazy.

quote:

my opinion, when the conversations are more plentiful on the side of the former than they are of the latter, we are being more concerned with how and what they think and feel than we are about how we and what we are doing. And that needs to stop. We need to make us the center of our focus. And if/when we do that, our time and conversations will be much better spent.

Cosby adressed white folks... Do you really think that is having 'us' as the focus? Com on ER, you can do b