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A1 |
The NPR program Speaking Of Faith with Krista Tippett is a neat lil show. She interviews a variety of guests about the subject of religion, but doesn't really get religious with it. She seems like a "core principles" type of person and she's had Muslims, persons of the Jewish Faith, Wiccans, Buddists, Native Americans, and Atheists on her show. There is even a segment about the ethics of eating, dealing with the responsibility of eating locally grown foods which requires less fossil fuels, chemicals etc...
 I think this one on Negro Spirituals/Sorrow Songs is a pretty good one, because the guy (now deceased) goes into detail about the AFRICAN experience and how they didn't really care for Christianity, but eventually transformed it to support their own spiritual needs. http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/joecarter/transcript.shtml http://www.publicradio.org/tools/media/player/speakingo...080710_joecarter.ram They're not often practiced. You know, James Weldon Johnson talked about this as, you know, the verging of the spirit of Christianity with the vestiges of African music or an African sensibility Mr. Carter: Mm-hmm. Ms. Tippett: I mean, do you have any ideas about what made that such a special fusion? Mr. Carter: Well, I've thought about it a lot. Ms. Tippett: Yeah. Mr. Carter: And, and one thing that occurs to me, if we go back to the cultures of the slaves that came from many different African nations and languages, but one thing they had in common was they believed in a supreme deity. But they believed He was very busy and very, very holy, and in order to get to Him, you had to go through the ancestors. It wasn't very dissimilar to the way Europeans felt with the saints, and so on. When slavery took place — and there was also this, this concept that you commune with deity with magic, shining songs. If your songs come forth with great fervor, you not only reach deity, but deity comes and possesses you, becomes part of you, and gives you the strength to do whatever you've got to do to win your battles, to harvest your crop. And when people were taken suddenly as slaves, when they were literally kidnapped from their normal lives, whatever those lives were, they were taken away from the land of their ancestors. The spirit of the ancestors couldn't cross the water. And so, when they were taken on these boats away from their homes, they experienced the most deep desolation possible, because not only were they being removed from their friends and kindred, but they were being removed from their God. And they had no way to get to God, because the ancestors were way back in Africa on the land. And I imagine when the slaves heard about this Jesus — now, the master's religion — first of all, you got to realize this, they were not impressed by the master's Christianity, may I say. Ms. Tippett: Well, right. I mean, this is why it's even surprising to me that they adopted Christianity. Mr. Carter: Yeah. Exactly, because they saw all of the brutality, they saw all the hypocrisy and were the brunt of it. But they heard about this Jesus, this man of sorrow who suffered, and they identified. They thought — and then they were told that Jesus is the Son of the High God. 'No. Wait, the Son of the High God? We can get to the High God through this guy?' Ms. Tippett: Right. Mr. Carter: "And His story sounds like our story. He's born in terrible circumstances, He's mistreated. He's finally abused and killed. My goodness. Maybe He will carry us to the High God." Then also, they heard stories about Daniel and the lion's den. Ms. Tippett: Yeah. Mr. Carter: My goodness. They loved that story because they identified with Daniel. Ms. Tippett: Tell the story, and tell me what the connection is between those people and that story. Mr. Carter: Well, let me, let me sing the song that they, they created from the story. Ms. Tippett: Yeah. OK. OK. Mr. Carter: (singing) Didn't my Lord deliver Daniel, deliver Daniel, deliver Daniel Didn't my Lord deliver Daniel, why not everyone? Didn't my Lord deliver Daniel, deliver Daniel, deliver Daniel Didn't my Lord deliver Daniel, why not everyone? He delivered Daniel from the lion's den Jonah from the belly of the whale The Hebrew children from the fiery furnace Why not everyone? Didn't my Lord deliver Daniel, deliver Daniel, deliver Daniel Didn't my Lord deliver Daniel, why not everyone? The moon runs down in a purple stream The sun refuse to shine Every star shall disappear But Jesus shall be mine. Oh, didn't my Lord deliver Daniel, deliver Daniel, deliver Daniel Didn't my Lord deliver Daniel, why not everyone? Why not everyone? Why not everyone? They were in the lion's den of slavery, and that lion was roaring around them every day. But somehow the hope that came from this story that the angels locked the lion's jaws, I mean, they loved that story. When we speak we are afraid our words will not be heard or welcomed. But when we are silent, we are still afraid. So it is better to speak Audre Lord |
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A1 |
Obviously, I was familiar with Negro Spirituals/Sorrow Songs, but I hadn't really thought of them as embedded in the African American psyche.
Often we're encouraged to imagine shufflin Kneegrows when this music is mentioned but they were actually used for encouragement to get through the horrors they had to get through, and to signal escapes, deaths, news, etc. I can see why the Civil Rights Movement relied so heavily on these songs. Although the songs contained phrases like "soon I will be done" or "i'll get my reward in the sky", they also had many references to freedom, dignity, fighting battles, being the same as everyone else in the eyes of god, and being determined to keep on keeping on despite the horrors. I didn't know there were 5000 of these songs! I thought maybe 200 tops  When we speak we are afraid our words will not be heard or welcomed. But when we are silent, we are still afraid. So it is better to speak Audre Lord |
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A4 |
My view of Spirituals is that they were not just songs of desolation. There are some songs call and response songs that I suspect are phonetically indigenous languages, transformed into English and still hold a spiritual meaning.
Songs that I grew up hearing in church. There are songs like "Jacobs Ladder" which talk about climbing the ladder of life (An Akan concept), or one of my favorites "Down by the Riverside" which talks about paying homage to the African diety Oshun who is the mother of the sweet rivers. In addition to that spirituals also had another level of meaning as secret code songs on the underground railroad or for escaping enslaved. This is a direct influence of the types of society our people lived in before they came to this nation in chattel slavery. With my own personal understanding of this, I truly appreciate those songs now more than when I was a child. I hope that comment wasn't all over the place. |
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me too! I've been aware of these songs for a very long time, and I remember them fondly (as evidenced by my screen name) but until recently, I really didn't think about the "psychology" of them. Unfortunately, lots of people are taught to be ashamed of Negro Spirituals, but culturally, they are a foundation for the African American mindset. I was speaking with a friend about how i could remember several cliche phrases from childhood, but i only recently realized that those phrases that elderfolk like to say are actually pieces of Negro Spirituals. And not only that, but they give us a glimpse of how early Africans in America saw their lives and the world that they were in. And we can hear these ancestors experiences (from hundreds of years ago) just by listening to or studying the lyrics today. So when i heard this radio show interview i was pleased to hear the guest talk about how they really didn't care for Christianity at first but they fused it with their own african sensibility and used it for their own purposes... to get through hell without going crazy. so i've gained a newfound respect and appreciation for these songs because they are snippets of the ancestors reality and their day to day lives. tell me more about Down By the Riverside and Oshun!
When we speak we are afraid our words will not be heard or welcomed. But when we are silent, we are still afraid. So it is better to speak Audre Lord |
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A2 |
It would be impossible to think that slaves who had come from Africa would have left all of it behind them, but it is just as hard for us to overlay African sensibilities over the wonderful Negro Spirituals that have been passed down to us through the ages as they have.
I know one really strong current is that when people would get the Holy Spirit (do they still do that in church?), it is the same effect as being overtaken by the Ancestors in West African religious ceremonies. As a matter of fact the parallels between the work of the Holy Spirit and the Ancestors is amazingly close, and a lot of our religious tradition, as Christians, is founded in the actions of the Holy Spirit. While it is not unreasonable to think that Down By The Riverside could have been a 'nod' to Oshun or a code for meeting at a river to escape, it is also reasonable to think that for many, it was a song about beginning the Christian experience, since many were baptized in rivers. There is a lot of power in those old songs, a lot, the call and response Dr. Watts that are known traditionally as the call to worship, are at once very African in nature, but also very practical since there was no real way to let people know when services were beginning. When I think of them, I can see people coming out of their quarters, out of the field, following that, call to worship. I do not even know if white people have an equivalent in their religious experience (do not really care either) but I know that it is not practiced to the extent that it was and that it is on its way to being lost as we assimilate into the dominant culture. I do wonder what the experience meant for the practitioners in the those early and turbulent days. And even as time moved on. It was not that long ago, we should have a better sense of it. Knocking jockeys off the lawn for over 50 years |
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Tasmanian Angel |
This is the second time you've said this, NS. Please explain what you mean by it.  Who would tell somebody (and are you saying this happens to children? ) that these songs are something to be ashamed of? And WHY??I was always taught to love and appreciate these songs .. even when I didn't know what they meant! The words were always strong and powerful and my Mom and Aunties (and even some of the menfolk) would sing them with a little extra *heart* or soulfulness put into it than when they sang regular songs ... which in itself denoted something special!! I can't imagine anyone actually telling somebody that there was something *wrong* or *bad* with these types of songs. Yes, many of them were sad in nature .. but, it was a sad time in our existence that these songs were borne out of.  So, (and I know you probably think this is some type of conspiracy or something .. but, I'm just really interested to know, so call it humoring me, or whatever, but ...) please tell me why ... what was the reasoning behind the teaching that Negro spirituals or sorrow songs were something to be ashamed of?? Thanks!  BLACK by NATURE, PROUD by CHOICE. Before there was ANY history, there was BLACK history. |
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A1 |
I've never heard this specifically said about the spirituals. However I have heard this said about other music. Especially the Blues. Many people regard it as old and backward. In fact, that always seems to me to be the way many of us look at older black music generally. As evidenced by the fact that Tupac is considered "old school" by folks a few years younger than me. Anyway, I don't have a hard time believing that some folks would regard the spirituals this way. If the Blues are old and backward, the Spirituals would be positively archaic by this mentality. |
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A4 |
Also, one type of genre that falls into the call and response type of song are work songs. The ones I've heard also appear to be phonetically African language. My parents and grandparents being from the Deep South and my having grown up in the North actually cut me off from understanding much of what was being said. Whereas my southern raised relatives completely understood. Something I kind of grieve over.
In regards to the blues, my mom being from Mississippi I've had the opportunity to hear some great blues in my childhood. Another form of African music I appreciate, especially when compared to continental African music. Again another direct link musically and linguistically. These are just my observations, I haven't formally studied any of this. And our people keep wanting to detach themselves from their African heritage....we just can't look at our cultures and do it.  |
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A2 |
There was nothing ever said about the songs and that is one reason there was not that much appreciation for them in our youth. America is often very forward looking and black americans even moreso because there is so much of our history that we are ashamed of (no matter how loathe we may be to admit it). Oddly that is a consequence of the black power movement of the 60s. Many of the things that attached us to our history of being enslaved were looked upon with an air of disdain instead of embracing the traditions that got us through those hard times, we left a lot of them in favor of things that were perceptibly more African than southern.
Knocking jockeys off the lawn for over 50 years |
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Tasmanian Angel |
That's really interesting, HB.
 I've never heard of the blues being referred in that way either. The blues is always played during the family gatherings on my Daddy's side. In the country. Deep off in the country. It drives the young'un's nuts, but we were raised on it ... and it's kind of a sign of respect to let the old folks enjoy it while they're hanging out. I dunno. It sounds like in the end it boils down to a lack of appreciation ... whether it's for culture as a whole or just the music itself, I'm not sure. BLACK by NATURE, PROUD by CHOICE. Before there was ANY history, there was BLACK history. |
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A1 |
Perhaps it's just an anecdotal observation, but, I've had conversations with Black people who associate spirituals with the imagery of hankerchief headed subservient negroes owned by the man, as opposed to having a black and proud type outlook. Also, many of your modern Black churches, especially mega churches have pastors who have instructed the choirs and congregants not to sing spirituals. The reasoning goes something like this, Those songs are about sorrow and sadness, they are about feeling down and out. JeeehzZus is something to feel good about. So we aren't going to sing those old sad sorry songs at New Greater Mount Bethlehem First United Potters Temple. We want to be uplifted! We are going to sing the gospel and the gospel is about good news. From now on we are going to PRAISE and WORSHIP. *enter praise dance team* I've heard variations on this theme countless times. Rethinking the cultural aspect of 'Spirituals, I can better appreciate Rev Wright's attempt to explain the history and the reason we worship like we do and they worship in another manner. Like the man said, Different is not Deficient. Really, i think it's just an ambiguity about embracing an aspect of slavery... even if it is the words, songs, rhythms, and daily life of our ancestors. the guy in the radio interview went around the world performing and discussing this music, but he really wasn't into it until a Jewish friend, describing the songs as great music, pointed it out to him, even though he was the great grandson of slaves. Don't you find it fascinating that somebody so close to slavery was so totally disconnected from the music and perspectives of slaves?
When we speak we are afraid our words will not be heard or welcomed. But when we are silent, we are still afraid. So it is better to speak Audre Lord |
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A1 |
This was a nice thread. I personally love Negro Spirituals.... The depth of emotion always touched me in a way I can't quite put in words, and multiple meanings of the lyrics has always fascinated me.
Egungun, Egungun ni t'aiye ati jo! Ancestos, Ancestors come to earth and dance! "I'm sick of the war and the civilization that created it. Let's look to our dreams, and the magical; to the creations of the so-called primitive peoples for new inspirations." - Jaques Vache and Andre Breton "Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." -John Maynard "You know that in our country there were even matriarchal societies where women were the most important element. On the Bijagos islands they had queens. They were not queens because they were the daughters of kings. They had queens succeeding queens. The religious leaders were women too..." -- Amilcar Cabral, Return to the Source, 1973    |
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Tasmanian Angel |
While I suppose I can understand this (to a certain extent) I can't think of anybody that should be more revered than those who survived the worst human tragedy ever.
Yeah, I do! My grandmother was born and lived as a *sharecropper* (until she met my grandpa). Her parents were born legally *free* but were still born on the plantation where their parents had been slaves. My family passed those stories down. I guess his didn't. Which, I suppose, is how such disconnects get started.
BLACK by NATURE, PROUD by CHOICE. Before there was ANY history, there was BLACK history. |
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A1 |
 And, unlike a lot of gospel music today, Negro Spirituals have a bass line so brothers like me have a part!! |
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A1 |
Joe Carter, the guy in the audio clip (it's a bit lengthy at 1hr) felt that the early slaves were very depressed because they had been yanked from everything, every place, and everybody they had ever known, and transported for long periods of time in boats over water...so they knew they couldn't go back. Adding to that was the brutality of slavery, and not being able to express that in their own language. it probably wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say they were singing to console themselves and singing to keep depression at bay. Negro Spirituals: Songs of Survival "Music, especially in the fields during long hours of physical toil, was encouraged . The slaves, it was notice worked harder and longer when they sang and the music seemed to keep up their spirits. Not much attention was paid to the lyrics and as a result, a wide range of expressive lyrics gave vent to the slaves’ desires for a better life in this world as well as in the next." When we speak we are afraid our words will not be heard or welcomed. But when we are silent, we are still afraid. So it is better to speak Audre Lord |
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A1 |
Wiki on Negro Spirituals
Negro spirituals were primarily expressions of religious faith. They may also have served as socio-political protests veiled as assimilation to white American culture. They were originated by enslaved African-Americans in the United States. Slavery was introduced to the British colonies in the early seventeenth century, and enslaved people largely replaced indentured servants as an economic labor force during the 17th century. These people would remain in bondage for the entire 18th century and much of the 19th century. Most were not fully emancipated until the ratification of the Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution. During slavery in the United States, there were systematic efforts to de-Africanize the captive Black workforce. Enslaved people were forbidden from speaking their native languages. Restrictions were placed on the religious expression of slaves. Rows of benches in places of worship discouraged congregants from spontaneously jumping to their feet and dancing. The use of musical instruments of any kind often was forbidden, and slaves were ordered to desist from the "paganism" of the practice of spiritual possession. Nonetheless, the Christian principles that teach those who suffer on earth hold a special place with God in heaven undoubtedly spoke to the enslaved who saw this as hope and could certainly relate to the suffering of Jesus. For this reason many slaves genuinely embraced Christianity. Because they were unable to express themselves freely in ways that were spiritually meaningful to them, enslaved Africans often held secret religious services. During these “bush meetings,†worshippers were free to engage in African religious rituals such as spiritual possession, speaking in tongues and shuffling in counterclockwise ring shouts to communal shouts and chants. It was there also that enslaved Africans further crafted the impromptu musical expression of field songs into the so-called "line singing" and intricate, multi-part harmonies of struggle and overcoming, faith, forbearance and hope that have come to be known as "Black Spirituals." While slaveowners used Christianity to teach enslaved Africans to be long-suffering, forgiving and obedient to their masters, as practiced by the enslaved, it became something of a liberation theology. The story of Moses and The Exodus of the "children of Israel" and the idea of an Old Testament God who struck down the enemies of His "chosen people" resonated deeply with the enslaved ("He's a battleaxe in time of war and a shelter in a time of storm"). In Black hands and hearts, Christian theology became an instrument of liberation. So, too, in many instances did the spirituals themselves. Spirituals sometimes provided comfort and eased the boredom of daily tasks, but above all, they were an expression of spiritual devotion and a yearning for freedom from bondage. Songs like "Steal Away (to Jesus)", or "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" raised unexpectedly in a dusty field, or sung softly in the dark of night, possibly signalled that the coast was clear and the time to escape had come When we speak we are afraid our words will not be heard or welcomed. But when we are silent, we are still afraid. So it is better to speak Audre Lord |
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A1 |
 @ Zora Neal Hurston for this but i see what she was talking about. 'Spirituals have become "chorale pieces" for university chorales both black and white and are sung around the world in that "fisk jubilee" manner, sans the soulful moaning, clapping, and shouting
but speaking of BASS, did this brotha have a set of woofers in his lungs or what?   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCImJbG-OcI Sometimes I feel Like a Motherless Child: Jimmy Scott Jazz Rendition
When we speak we are afraid our words will not be heard or welcomed. But when we are silent, we are still afraid. So it is better to speak Audre Lord |
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A1 |
*ahem* The Dominant Culture singing Way Over in Beaulah Land - Glee Club Style
Mahalia Jackson: How I got Over Mary Mary Yolanda Adams Patti Labelle Inez Andrews: Lord Don't Move My Mountain Young Inez Andrews: Mary Don't U Weep
When we speak we are afraid our words will not be heard or welcomed. But when we are silent, we are still afraid. So it is better to speak Audre Lord |
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