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A5 |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SblyuFUM9Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHoDpQaYXw4 >>><<<<>>>><<<<>>>><< "Study the people who took you out of history. Then you'll understand -your history." "For your survival, draw on the intellectual heritage of the whole world, but always start with your own intellectual heitage". --Dr. John Henrik Clarke "Revenge knows few limits when the privileged and powerful are subjected to the kind of terror they regularly mete out to their victims." --Noam Chomsky "Sure there are a few good whites just as much as there are a few bad Blacks. However what we are concerned here with is group attitudes and group politics. The exception does not make a lie or the rule - it merely substantiates it." --Steve Biko |
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A1 |
Thanks for this. Raptor, I know I could look it up, but is the original video a single documentary or a series. I might want to use it for a course on Western Religion. Truth is undoubtedly the sort of error that cannot be refuted because it was hardened into an unalterable form in the long baking process of history... Michel Foucault Hope begets many children illegitimately and prematurely. Allie M. Frazier Beware the terrible simplifiers... Jacob Burckhardt  |
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A5 |
Kresge,
I can't say. I've been watching dr. beckford's documentaries online for sometime. I have emailed him, a short while ago, asking how I could get some of the documentaries that he was apart of: http://robertbeckford.co.uk/ I haven't heard from him yet. >>><<<<>>>><<<<>>>><< "Study the people who took you out of history. Then you'll understand -your history." "For your survival, draw on the intellectual heritage of the whole world, but always start with your own intellectual heitage". --Dr. John Henrik Clarke "Revenge knows few limits when the privileged and powerful are subjected to the kind of terror they regularly mete out to their victims." --Noam Chomsky "Sure there are a few good whites just as much as there are a few bad Blacks. However what we are concerned here with is group attitudes and group politics. The exception does not make a lie or the rule - it merely substantiates it." --Steve Biko |
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C3 |
This video is titled, "Mithras- Pagan Origins of Christianity" However, wouldn't Judaism be the origins of Christianity. Also, in the video, though the Mithras would be a 1000 years older than Christianity, it's not older than Judaism, really it maybe 300 years younger than Judaism if Mithraism practice began about 1400 B.C.E and Judaism being about 2000 B.C.E-15OO B.C.E. We all know that Christ birthday is not on Dec. 25 and that is only because thanks to your Roman Catholic church for setting it up (following their old beliefs) as being the birth of the "Sun God".
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A5 |
WillyWill3, You say all this to say what? There's nothing, barring minor differences, new or original about xianity. And that's okay, really. As for judaism: http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/96970854/m...761018264#1761018264 >>><<<<>>>><<<<>>>><< "Study the people who took you out of history. Then you'll understand -your history." "For your survival, draw on the intellectual heritage of the whole world, but always start with your own intellectual heitage". --Dr. John Henrik Clarke "Revenge knows few limits when the privileged and powerful are subjected to the kind of terror they regularly mete out to their victims." --Noam Chomsky "Sure there are a few good whites just as much as there are a few bad Blacks. However what we are concerned here with is group attitudes and group politics. The exception does not make a lie or the rule - it merely substantiates it." --Steve Biko |
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C3 |
The video is comparing the roles of Jesus Christ, Mithra, Orsis in their religion as being quite similar. That is really it. Besides all of that, it's not a surprise that religions borrow things from one another, nothing is original. But the term it as being of "Pagan" Origins, saying Christianity's is mainly borrowed from the Mithra's is not true at all, or even Egypt...it's of Jewish origin. I knew about certain themes of angels and views about God being adopted by the Zoroastrian religion, but their religion isn't even Pagan either. How are you going to even give a sex or even a preferences to God which is suppose to be a spiritual being? Bi-sexual, Homosexual, Heterosexual? Male, Female? In the Bible, the Midianites are described as worshiping a multitude of gods, including Baal-peor and the Asherah. How is Yahweh including in this thought if God had Moses and the Isarelities strike them down for leading them into sin and being turned away from God? That makes no sense. http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Catholic_Encyclopedia_(1913)/Madianites Numbers 31:17-18 "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him." "But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." Review of Numbers 31 In Exodus, the land of Midian is introduced as the place to which Moses flees when running away from Pharaoh. There, he encountered Reuel or Jethro, a Midianite priest, who later became Moses' father-in-law. Toward the close of the forty years' wandering of the children of Israel in the wilderness, the Midianites ally with the Moabites against the Israelites, in asking Balaam the son of Beor to curse the Israelites (Numbers 22); however, Balaam was prohibited to do so, and prophesied future greatness for Israel (Numbers 24). Subsequently Israelites coexisted peacefully with Moabites and Midianites (Numbers 25). However, Israel suffered a plague which was blamed on Israelite participation in the local religion and sexual immorality. For this reason, according to the Torah, Moses was ordered by God to punish the Midianites. He dispatched against them an army of 12,000 men, under Phinehas the priest; this force defeated the Midianites and slew all their males, including their five kings, Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba. These five kings may have been the rulers of the five clans descended from their eponymous folk-ancestor's sons. The Israelite soldiers set on fire all the cities and fortresses of the Midianites, carried the women and children into captivity, and seized their cattle and goods. God later ordered Moses to have the Israelites slay every Midianite male child and every woman, however, the soldiers spared the female virgins, who were then given to the Israelite soldiers. It appears from the same account that the Midianites were rich in cattle and gold. The women and children became servants as all others who fall at the hands of Israelites. In other words, they became apart of their society and had to work. Technically, the Israelite were suppose to kill them all off due to their deception, yet they chose to keep the virgin women alive along with the young girls. Keep in mind there is nothing mentioned about the women being used for sex slavery for this would be an offense against God and punishable by death if this occurred. This seems that this was a judgment call by Moses, rather than God who commanded the Israelites to kill the Midianites for their deception. The young males were killed too. The reason for the murder of the males was simply in their mind set that they wanted to save them from following the Pagan ways of their forefathers and secondly if they were allowed to mature they would have probably seek vengeances against the Israelites too. Through all of that explanation...If Yahweh is a "Midian God", why would Yahweh want "Yahweh's own people struck" down at the hands of Moses and the Isarelities? How did they steal the name of Yahweh and proof of this? It doesn't really make sense if Yahweh is one of the "Gods" that the Midians worshiped and the Isarelities (the few) just so happened to fall into the local religion and sexual immorality of the Midianites, that Yahweh would want them killed then. So why would the Egyptian mention them by the name Jews, if that name did not come much later on after the destruction of the 1st temple, when the the Israelites or Hyksos (which the Eygptians called them by) gave themselves that name, being Jews. The reason they call themselves Jews is because out of the 12 tribes, the Tribe of Judea was left. Zoroastrianism, was founded in 6000 B.C.E, not the 7th century. December 25th, I thought would be obvious when it was never Jesus Birthday in the first place. Thanks to the mind set of the Catholic Church borrowing and using other pagan beliefs.
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A5 |
...You said it all right here, which brings no need for expansion.  >>><<<<>>>><<<<>>>><< "Study the people who took you out of history. Then you'll understand -your history." "For your survival, draw on the intellectual heritage of the whole world, but always start with your own intellectual heitage". --Dr. John Henrik Clarke "Revenge knows few limits when the privileged and powerful are subjected to the kind of terror they regularly mete out to their victims." --Noam Chomsky "Sure there are a few good whites just as much as there are a few bad Blacks. However what we are concerned here with is group attitudes and group politics. The exception does not make a lie or the rule - it merely substantiates it." --Steve Biko |
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A1 |
 ... and since it is no surprise... for one of the more recent borrowers(historically speaking) to proclaim or claim any exclusivity to spiritual/religious 'truth' is absolutely ridiculous... not to mention a huge contradiction.Egungun, Egungun ni t'aiye ati jo! Ancestos, Ancestors come to earth and dance! "I'm sick of the war and the civilization that created it. Let's look to our dreams, and the magical; to the creations of the so-called primitive peoples for new inspirations." - Jaques Vache and Andre Breton "Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." -John Maynard "You know that in our country there were even matriarchal societies where women were the most important element. On the Bijagos islands they had queens. They were not queens because they were the daughters of kings. They had queens succeeding queens. The religious leaders were women too..." -- Amilcar Cabral, Return to the Source, 1973    |
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C3 |
Yeah that is true. lol I think when some apply that meaning of "truth" its the moral good and spiritual aspect of what the belief can bring. Buddhism as well had to borrow some things from Hinduism to develop their own philosophies. Even beyond a institution what is really "original"? |
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A1 |
Exclusivism therefore doesn't apply, unless one has a spiritual/religious/cultural superiroty complex.
Buddhism OPENLY ADMITS that... and doesn't claim spiritual exclusivity... So what's your point?
Uhhhmmm... How about asking those institutions(and people) that claim originality and spiritual/religious exclusivism? "There is nothing new under the sun but there are lots of old things we don't know." - Ambrose Bierce Egungun, Egungun ni t'aiye ati jo! Ancestos, Ancestors come to earth and dance! "I'm sick of the war and the civilization that created it. Let's look to our dreams, and the magical; to the creations of the so-called primitive peoples for new inspirations." - Jaques Vache and Andre Breton "Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." -John Maynard "You know that in our country there were even matriarchal societies where women were the most important element. On the Bijagos islands they had queens. They were not queens because they were the daughters of kings. They had queens succeeding queens. The religious leaders were women too..." -- Amilcar Cabral, Return to the Source, 1973 |
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C3 |
So what is "original" and why is this a big deal? The people and churches may say it, but that's them. |
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A5 |
Robert Beckford made the documentary to explore that which is in question, the "Pagan Origins of Christianity". Your response implies the contrary. Apparently you consider it 'a big deal', for you continue to make the (futile) case that xianity is, historically speaking, original when in fact there are metric tons of information that clearly proves that it is not. Many folks, including (non-literalist) xians, know this to be true. And as I've stated before, if the message is true, the story do not need/have to be true. Case in point, if you had watched the documentary all the way through, you would've noted that Beckford is still true to his faith. That being xianity. One can conclude that he's not a literalist, yet strong in his faith nonetheless... A slight correction (or maybe not). The conclusion that dr. beckford is true to his faith despite some "reservations" he appears to have about the authenticity of his faith can be found here: http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/96970854/m/9051007364 ...The 12th (bottom) link.
>>><<<<>>>><<<<>>>><< "Study the people who took you out of history. Then you'll understand -your history." "For your survival, draw on the intellectual heritage of the whole world, but always start with your own intellectual heitage". --Dr. John Henrik Clarke "Revenge knows few limits when the privileged and powerful are subjected to the kind of terror they regularly mete out to their victims." --Noam Chomsky "Sure there are a few good whites just as much as there are a few bad Blacks. However what we are concerned here with is group attitudes and group politics. The exception does not make a lie or the rule - it merely substantiates it." --Steve Biko |
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A1 |
Ask those institutions and people who are hung up on exclusivism and originality...
Not so fast... Are you dismissing the importance of 'the people's' and 'the church's' ideology in X-ian dominated society? Or are you blowing it off as 'unimportant'(which is highly illogical) to avoid having to call out those who are exclusivist/literalists on their BS? ...Or is it that you want to avoid asking yourself these questions?  Don't try to flip the script... Why are you asking the importance of 'originality' to ANYONE but the people/institutions who claim it?Egungun, Egungun ni t'aiye ati jo! Ancestos, Ancestors come to earth and dance! "I'm sick of the war and the civilization that created it. Let's look to our dreams, and the magical; to the creations of the so-called primitive peoples for new inspirations." - Jaques Vache and Andre Breton "Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." -John Maynard "You know that in our country there were even matriarchal societies where women were the most important element. On the Bijagos islands they had queens. They were not queens because they were the daughters of kings. They had queens succeeding queens. The religious leaders were women too..." -- Amilcar Cabral, Return to the Source, 1973 |
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C3 |
Truthfully I have no idea what you are asking me. lol I stated that if the people in their churches believe that their religion is original, that is them. Again, I don't see why it should matter. If your exclusivist/literalists think this, that is them when it is apparent that with out Judaism you could not have Christianity, With out Hinduism you could not have Buddhism and Jainism, etc. How is this illogical now? |
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A1 |
Nevermind...  Egungun, Egungun ni t'aiye ati jo! Ancestos, Ancestors come to earth and dance! "I'm sick of the war and the civilization that created it. Let's look to our dreams, and the magical; to the creations of the so-called primitive peoples for new inspirations." - Jaques Vache and Andre Breton "Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." -John Maynard "You know that in our country there were even matriarchal societies where women were the most important element. On the Bijagos islands they had queens. They were not queens because they were the daughters of kings. They had queens succeeding queens. The religious leaders were women too..." -- Amilcar Cabral, Return to the Source, 1973 |
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D5 |
You and I continually stay on the same page...!
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A4 |
I have made this argument before and I will throw it out there again. If there was a "True" religion, that was a dispensational religion that was prophecied about, isn't it highly likely that some altered versions of it would exist in some form with similarities?
This is not an argument for literal Christianity but similar to the game telephone, where each kid whispers in the next kids ear and the message is usually distorted the end may resemble the beginning in sound but different in content. If an individual believes that there was an 'original' truth, and this truth prophecied the something was going to happen in the future, isn't it highly likely that there would be distortions of that truth throughout the ages? So to say that something is 'similar' doesn't mean that it isn't true. There would have to be a different standard of truth. I would argue that there is no logical defense for Christianity. In fact I would argue that there is no logical defense for any religious system. Simply put, there are those who believe and those who don't. |
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