Would it have occurred without the Church?

Why or why not?

If it would have occurred, what would have been different about the movement?

quote:

Originally posted by ma'am:
Would it have occurred without the Church?

Why or why not?

If it would have occurred, what would have been different about the movement?

In order for me to answer this with integrity, I would need to know how you are defining African American church.

The reason I ask, is that in the field of African American religious studies, the term gets used in various ways. Sometimes, it is used to refer to solely to the historic black Christian denominations (AME, AMEZ, CME, NBCUSA, NBCA, PNBC, COGIC). Others would include Spiritualist traditions, as well as sects such as Father Divine's Peace Mission, Daddy Grace's United House of Prayer for All People, and a host of others.

Broadly construed, however, I would say that any kind of social/political movement in this country up until the 1960's could not have taken place with out a principle ingredient being the religious sensibilities and black folk and those institutions associated with it. Even recognizing the various and sundry problems associated with religion, there is an undeniable traditions of religion functioning in opposition to individual and systemic forms of oppression for African Americans.

I was thinking "African-American church" as in all of those who played an integral in the actitivies associated with the movement, and I suppose that means the historic definition, but I don't know if it does since I have no clue about those churches mentioned in your second definition, lol.

I'm not sure if that'd change someone's answer.

I'm confused.

In order to not make me any more confused, ya'll should define the African-American church as you like, but make your definition clear with the content of your answer.

My simply answer is 'No.'

The Church was the single unifying institution, or force, in African American society.

Neither the faux-religiousorganizations like The Freemasons, or the fraternal organizations like the Elks, etc had such unifying effect.

Further, The Civil Rights Movement was expanded via the churches and synogogues of 'whites' .

I don't know what role, if any, was played by the mosques of Islam.

PEACE

Jim Chester

No, because the church was/is the most organized intitutions that Africans in Amerikkka have.

Yes,

Because the Civil Rights movement was based on Universal principles. I feel that the church was a hindrance because it weakened our position by using guilt, and shame, as a means to our ends. The principles the civil rights movement stood for were sound, without the aid of guilt or shame. Yes, I agree with the Black church being a substantial foundation, but it did not need to be our voice.

The movement would have been different in that it would have created an identity that is unique to our black nature and black culture. Meaning, we assimilated through our movement in order to get the opposition to aggree to our terms. Terms that didn't need assimilation. We traded our discomfort for a lesser form of discomfort, but discomfort nonetheless. Had we embraced our culture, we would have an identity.

Although I agree that it was God himself that brought us out. I believe that He wouldn't reject us being representatives of our natural way of thinking... that He created.

Yes, I agree with the Black church being a substantial foundation, but it did not need to be our voice.---HeruStar

The value of the church was twofold.

First, The Church was an organization respect throughout the African American community, and...

The Church was organization to which almost everyone belonged...in one demomination or another.

It must be remembered that mass civil activism was not new in the African American Community...witness the riots of the 1940s, the boycotts of the same period as well as the on-the-ground activism of organizations like CORE under the leadership of the Honorable James Farmer, and McKissick...before its current highly questionable incarnation under The Innis's.

If for no other reason than unity, The Movement needed a voice.

We should also remember The Movement was not, by any description, the will of all African American-Americans.

It is arguable that it represented even a majority.

The Civil Rights Movement was not the voice of a consensus.

It was however a force for change, and with the ability to effect that change.

PEACE

Jim Chester

The Church was organization to which almost everyone belonged...in one demomination or another---JWC

These denominations weren't inherit. These denominations set the precedence for Americas religous intolerance. We accepted the racial and prejudice guidelines in order to be "heard". We surcomed to acts of terrorism in the name of the white god, in order to obtain freedom. Isn't it ironic?

quote:

The Civil Rights Movement was not the voice of a consensus.

Surely we all felt discomfort in some form or another?

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
Yes,
Because the Civil Rights movement was based on Universal principles. I feel that the church was a hindrance because it weakened our position by using guilt, and shame, as a means to our ends. The principles the civil rights movement stood for were sound, without the aid of guilt or shame.

The principles were sound, but sound principles were not enough. The dominant society saw itself as righteous and just. Dare I say...moral? Although the movement advanced the rights of citizens as proscribed in the constitution, it needed a position of moral imperative. The movement needed the church. How else would you have shown over a hundred million white people that their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors regarding their fellow man was evil?

From my perspective, the main goal of civil rights movement was to hold up a mirror to society and say

you call yourself just...you call yourself christian...you call yourself the land of the free

and yet

you have codified evil into your laws and you treat citizens like beasts

you are not christian...

The civil rights movement cannot be separated from the church since it is essentially a movement of morality.

Couldn't we have used logic? Instead of religion?

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
Couldn't we have used logic? Instead of religion?

Are you suggesting that the two are mutually exclusive?
Also, as I read the question, it assumes a particular historicity about black people (would as opposed to could which is more speculative).

Finally, I would suggest that an attempt to circumscribe human life and action to the logical, although it might have certain advantages, the type of human beingness that it would result in would be rather anemic to say the least. What of passions, emotion, feeling, intuition? There is also the whole realm of our being that is the unconscious.

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
Couldn't we have used logic? Instead of religion?

Well, I imagine you could have...but you'd still be at the back of the bus.

Logic does not move the american public...

as evidenced by twice electing George Dubya Bush and supporting "pre-emptive strike" wholeheartedly.

And I might add...white logic allowed them to enslave africans in the first place.

quote:

Originally posted by HeruStar:
Couldn't we have used logic? Instead of religion?

Since the ORGANIZATION of a critical mass is necessary for any movement to be successful, using the church, the ONE institution we had that was well ORGANIZED is logical. I have a friend who's grandmother is an atheist, but she was in the church in Houston at meetings ORGANIZING for change.

I've often heard old people say that this was done through the church and that was, but it wasn't until after watching "Eye on the Prize" that I have had a real appreciation.

I don't think that without the church, the process made during the movement would have happened the same way or even in a better way. Through the organization of the church, wonders were achieved.

Imagine if this were 1955. Today a group of preachers tells their members to boycott the public transit system. Do you think that the buses would have zero Black passengers the day after next? Would people walk to work? Carpool in mass with strangers?

I'm not sure we can get such a bold reaction in two weeks.

Many cities not having major organizations that can produce mass reactions in a day or two like back then might be our peoples' problem today.

The church seems to have lost its position. And there hasn't been a replacement.

Maybe its the very same church that led us during the Civil Rights era,is leading us to destruction

quote:

Originally posted by ZAKAR:
Maybe its the very same church that led us during the Civil Rights era,is leading us to destruction

well now

u know you cant just drop a terd like that and leave not a single iota of explanation...

'splain lucy

*nods*