quote:

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Originally posted by ricardomath:

quote:

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Originally posted by MBM:

Do you not see the inconsistency in this answer? Do you not understand that by saying that you are from "African America" and furthermore that you are a African American American - minimizes your connection to Africa?

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This is why I coined the term "African-African American". Do you not understand that by simply calling yourself "African-American", you are minimizing your connection with Africa?

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But Ricardomath, that minimizes our relationship with America. Hence, I coined the new term for us now: African African-American American.

Have you ever really explained why this terminology stuff is so important to you, anyway? The lack of a hyphen, and saying American twice? Oshun Auset said that her construct of our identity is tied into a liberation movement. Mine is tied into a general belief that adherence to objective reality sets free an objectively great, objectively strong, objectively beautiful people, and that allowing subjective political imperatives to influence our rendering of an objective reality opens our progress to attack by opposing subjective viewpoints and their political imperatives. What about your construct? What exactly is the point of it that makes it so important, other than the fact of your personal pride in having made it up?---Vox

Yes, I have. In fact, several times.

I think I did it in this thread, early on.

As I begin this, I am reminded again of the standing admonition in neighborhood to African American children leaving for college. "Don't get so educated you forget where you come from." Often when I have begun to write taking another step toward my determination-of-self, I found myself being chastised by that 'community guidance.'

By the way, I agree with you that my 'African American', like your 'African-American' describes both ethnicity and nationality; ancestral nationality in my case.

You may recall that my goal was, and is, to resolve the issue of identity for my children. That obviously required that I first achieve the same for myself.

Whatever that conclusion was/is to be, it must be clearly expressible in the language of the society in which they live. Our hegemony (language of our society) uses the hyphen to indicate the ethnicity of American citizens.

If I use the term African-American to describe my identity, The hegemony says I am an American who is simply African.

This is important because the same can be accurately said for Theresa Heinz-Kerry; Baraka Obama, and all others of similar parentage, or personal origin.

I can't validly make that claim.

African-American is a term that excludes me and all those like me.

Further, Africa is not my ethnicity. Africa is my ancestry. Both in the manner you described in your earlier post on this thread.

African America, the entity, is my ethnicity and my ancestral nationality. African America is that place delineated for us by/in the U. S. Constitution. The same place required of us in Jim Crow America. The same place developed for us as a safe haven in the United States.

It is the same place for which all the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments to the Constitution were written.

It is the same place all those civil rights laws were written for in 1870, and 1875, and 1957, and 1964, and 1965.

It is the same place for which The Emancipation Proclamation was written in 1863.

It is the same place for which The Compromise of 1877 was written. The same place The Dred Scott decision was written; and The Plessy v. Ferguson decision was written.

It is the same place Article IV, Section 2 of the U. S. Constitution was written, March 1789.

It is the same place The Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 was written.

It is the same place where my grandfather was born in 1855; my father in 1890; and me of course in 19?????.

All the above were designed specifically for African Americans living in that special place.

Similarly:

It is the place for which the following were created and developed for survival and day-to-day living.

The African Methodist Episcopal Church, and a whole host other denominations;

The Nation of Islam; Elijah Muhammad

The NAACP; W.E.B. DuBois et al.

The National Bar Association

The National Medical Association

The Masonic Order

The Congress on Racial Equality (C.O.R.E.); James Farmer

The Brotherhood of Pullman Porters; A. Philip Randolph

African America is where I am from.

The Works and Acts of;

Frederick Douglass

Harriet Tubman

Sojourner Truth

Nat Turner

Denmark Vesey

Martin B. Delaney

Thomas Morris Chester

Benjamin Hooks

Walter White

Roy Wilkins

Roger Wilkins

James Weldon Johnson

John Rosamond Johnson

Carter G. Woodson

The Good Guys.

And a whole bunch of other folks.

Ancestral nationality provides parity in the structure of American society.

Every person, excepting those indigenous to the continent, arrived, and maintain their respective ancestral nationalities.

In the color-based structure of our society, ancestral nationality in the distinguishing feature use by members of respective groups to identify the ethnicities within their respective groups.

There is no parity defintion for Americans of unknown African ancestry.

There is not even a parity defintion for Americans of unknown African ancestry in the group 'black.'

some, in fact many, say 'So what?'

I saym 'So not good enough.'

Ancestral nationality provides that parity for my children, and all those others who chose to identify in that manner.

Ancestral nationality removes all the questions, all the challenges, all the ambiguity, and all the bases for argument that may be associated with identity.

The only approval needed is the authority of the one making the declaration, including political imperatives, social mandates, and economic balance.

AND...I am proud that I named it.

I didn't 'make it up.'

It was already there,and had been for hundreds of years.

African America is where people of unknown African ancestry live.

Africn American is where America is.

Naming is my only claim.

African American is good.

PEACE

Jim Chester

Jim, are you a "male man"? Can you please explain of what other nationality an "African American" would be other than American?

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Originally posted by MBM:
Jim, are you a "male man"?

I don't know what that means. I'll reserve comment until you decode.

Can you please explain of what other nationality an "African American" would be other than American?

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If you suggesting that 'African American' is inclusive of citizenship, and on reflection, I think that is your intent, that would make such an American simply African.

I contend and believe that I am, and all others like me are, more than simply African.

I am convinced that our American experience in the special place defined for us by our forefathers, and they were, and developed by our forebearers into a safe haven for themselves and their children.

An African American is, by Constitutional definition, an American citizenship.

If you are alluding again to the double use of 'American', being African American is a separate circumstance from being American. It has to do with that duality I referenced in other posts.

African American is heritage, and ancestral nationality among other things.

American is citizenship.

Incidentally, and as you know, an African American can seek and obtain citizenship in many other countries.

PEACE

Jim Chester

Jim, are you a "male man"?---MBM

The grammar of the term is also worth a little examination.

I recognized the impact of the repeat-use of 'American' from the outset. It certainly slammed me in the face first. Considering your example 'male-man' is a good way to begin.

The term 'male-man' is not redundant, as in automatic. They certainly are not reversible. One or the other of the words may be unneeded depending.

The 'male' may not be a man while the 'man' is certainly male.

In the term African American, 'American' does not, in fact cannot, stand alone and retain the intended meaning. There is no 'American-American'; not even in the use of Native American-American, if it were in practice.

I considered several alternatives to describe my intent.

There was African American alone. That didn't fit because, as I have said I am not an American who is simply African.

There was Black American. While it is true, ther term describes what I am rather than who I am, with or without a capital 'b.'

All of the other alternatives are not/were not worth considering.

It became a mental challenge to accept African American first as an entity, and then as an accurate description of myself.

The focus of my writing effort was to prepare defenses to the challenges that were sure to come; the most difficult of which would come from people like me...like my children.

To repeat, there is no redundancy in African American-American.

PEACE

Jim Chester

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The term 'male-man' is not redundant, as in automatic. They certainly are not reversible. One or the other of the words may be unneeded depending.
..............................................
The 'male' may not be a man while the 'man' is certainly male.
..............................................
To repeat, there is no redundancy in African American-American.

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Where did you make that case?
You made no equivalent translation of African American.

MALE = first word in construction
MALE = all inclusive term to describe all of said species-gender
MAN = describes what kind of male

I suppose either term "African" or "American" can be the descriptor of the other - i.e. which one conceptually, if not structurally, comes 'first' or takes primacy. (Note: The more important term is really - whether actually or not - being described.) That has a lot to do with the split among opinions on this identity thing.

JWC... Why don't you just own your view and the psychosis that goes along with it. You place little importance on the "African" part. It's only use to you is its cosmetic effect in distinguishing you from other "Americans".

(Note: Being the stickler that you are... You have yet to address the "inadequacy" of the term "American". "America" is not a (singular) place or people, technically. So since you're trying to feign technical correctness you should further convolute your name-term and make it: African-North American-American...
Or something like that. It's funny how you grant deference to the "simple" (and inaccurate)term "American" while being a particularist on the "African". That says a whole lot...)

quote:

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Originally posted by Nmaginate:

quote:

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The term 'male-man' is not redundant, as in automatic. They certainly are not reversible. One or the other of the words may be unneeded depending.
..............................................
_The 'male' may not be a man while the 'man' is certainly male._
..............................................
To repeat, there is no redundancy in African American-American.

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Where did you make that case?
You made no equivalent translation of African American.

I did in earlier posts with MBM. Abd U thought I just did, at least im part.

The 'American' in African American is not a 'stand alone.' Therefore, it cannot be redundant.

MALE = first word in construction
MALE = all inclusive term to describe all of said species-gender
MAN = describes what kind of male

I suppose either term "African" or "American" can be the descriptor of the other - i.e. which one conceptually, if not structurally, comes 'first' or takes primacy. (Note: The more important term is really - whether actually or not - being described.) That has a lot to do with the split among opinions on this identity thing.

Like I just said 'American' is not a 'stand alone.' The term of ethnicity is 'African Anerican.' It is a term in and of itself.

To break up African American is equivalent to breaking up North Dakota, or San Francisco, or New York.

JWC... Why don't you just own your view and the psychosis that goes along with it.

I own my view, and ANY psychosis that goes with it.

You place little importance on the "African" part. It's only use to you is its cosmetic effect in distinguishing you from other "Americans".

Eyes of the beholder.

I never thought about a proportionality. It is a single entity.

(Note: Being the stickler that you are... You have yet to address the "inadequacy" of the term "American". "America" is not a (singular) place or people, technically. So since you're trying to feign technical correctness you should further convolute your name-term and make it: African-North American-American...
Or something like that.

That's an intricacy I can't perceive. Others might see the significance.

It's funny how you grant deference to the "simple" (and inaccurate)term "American" while being a particularist on the "African". That says a whole lot...)

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Please explain the inaccuracy in the term 'American.'

PEACE

Jim Chester

quote:

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Originally posted by James Wesley Chester:

_Please explain the inaccuracy in the term 'American.'_

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Already did. And you where aware of it, hence your comment:

quote:

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quote:

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So since you're trying to feign technical correctness you should further convolute your name-term and make it: African-North American-American...
Or something like that.

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That's an intricacy I can't perceive. Others might see the significance.

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Feigning ignorance won't work. Given that you can speak of us as people of Unknown African Descent (by way of necessitating a pin-point lineage)... hmm.... just as MBM said it's funny how you prefer not to pin-point that which is obstensibly "American" - i.e. you don't specify a country, state or town much less something continental for "American" (there are more than one AMERICA... been there... done said that... and you are NOT that ignorant or stupid!)

STAND-ALONE or NOT...

Really, that's of no consequence.
Your quarrel isn't with the "American" component. It is the base of what your identity. It is the subject to you. African is merely a descriptor and an inadequate one to you. So, your focus is to modify the "African" and NOT so much the "American". It's the African part... as you've said so yourself that was/is problematic to you. And that's where your psychosis kicks in.

quote:

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There was African American alone. That didn't fit because, as I have said I am not an American who is simply African.

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Case & Point...
Apparently, the inaccurate term "American" automatically "fit" in some way. It was/is guaranteed to stay no matter what it failed to specify, it's supposed nationalistic designation notwithstanding. (USA-ian??? Anyone??)

And hmmm.... African American is one term to you, huh? Yeah right!!! I can see it now. Someone from New York quibbling: "New York... just doesn't quite get it. I'm not a "York"-ian who is simply "New"." lol

quote:

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Originally posted by James Wesley Chester:

Please explain the inaccuracy in the term 'American.'

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I think that the point is that word "America" denotes a continent (or 2, or 3, depending upon how you split things up), rather than a Country.

You know, kinda' like the word "Africa".

quote:

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Originally posted by ricardomath:

I think that the point is that word "America" denotes a continent (or 2, or 3, depending upon how you split things up), rather than a Country.

You know, kinda' like the word "Africa".

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Ricky...
You know we've already been there with JWC! This is just his usual Play Dumb tactic when he knows his logic is exposed for its obvious holes.

Anyway... Another funny thing about JWC's reasoning is it own Internal Contradiction. Often he proclaims (or at least used to):
"WE ARE WHO WE SAY WE ARE"
.... as if to say that we define ourselves and give meaning to whatever it is that concerns and pertains to us.

Well, he violates and by all appearances is motivated by the definition or opposition of others. He was quick to latch on to Theresa Kerry's "I'm African-American" yielding to White Racist Convention. (Yes, it is White racism that would dare claim all of "America" as a US designator while ragging about "Africa" and even trying the cynical T. Kerry stunt.)

That is to say that JWC's idea is way too swayed by the conception of others. The idea that our naming-term must have "parity" with other (read White) "Americans" is a violation of his principle in and of itself.

Clearly... when we deemed ourselves African-Americans, to JWC, "We Weren't Who We Said We Were"... We had to make sure the term didn't receive any rejections from others and in some way mimick others.

WOW!! We are so independent!

What I find rather curious is how somebody can at the same time be so enthusiastic with misusing the name of that continent called America, not once, but twice, in self identification, while at the same time be so eager to get all stressed out over political boundries within America, lines that only serve to separate Americans from ourselves.

I can always count on JWC to be the first to respond to any thread that involves intra-American boundries, especially those that separate us from our fellow Americans to the south.

just as MBM said it's funny how you prefer not to pin-point that which is obstensibly "American" - i.e. you don't specify a country, state or town much less something continental for "American" (there are more than one AMERICA... been there... done said that... and you are NOT that ignorant or stupid!)---Nmaginate

Thanks for your vote of confidence in both my knowledge and intellect.

'American' is indicative of citizenship (in the instance of persons) of a country, to most people. To most it means 'of America'. To most people 'of America' means that nation/country commonly known to be on the North American continent with 48 of its contiguous States being situated between the North American nations/countries of Mexico (on its South), and Canada (on its North)

That sounds pretty specific to me. But what do I know.

Further, my understanding of 'other Americas' is matter of geography.

It also is the case for 'Little America.'

Position has become very weak when discussion of ethnicity and ancestral nationality are countered with issues of geography.

Really, that's of no consequence.
Your quarrel isn't with the "American" component. It is the base of what your identity. It is the subject to you. African is merely a descriptor and an inadequate one to you. So, your focus is to modify the "African" and NOT so much the "American". It's the African part... as you've said so yourself that was/is problematic to you. And that's where your psychosis kicks in.---Nmaginate

That's an interesting look of how you see my identity. I appreciate it.

America is basic in my identity. Africa does indicate the America I in live in. It's the same America all Americans of unknown African ancestry live in; that is IF they live as 'black' people in this country.

I do indeed use African to indicate the American I live in.

No problem. That's a fact.

If that's psychosis, Lay it on me.

And hmmm.... African American is one term to you, huh? Yeah right!!! I can see it now. Someone from New York quibbling: "New York... just doesn't quite get it. I'm not a "York"-ian who is simply "New"." lol---Nmaginate

I THINK YOU'VE GOT IT!!!

I THINK YOU'VE GOT IT!!!

PEACE

Jim Chester

I think that the point is that word "America" denotes a continent (or 2, or 3, depending upon how you split things up), rather than a Country.

You know, kinda' like the word "Africa".---ricardomath

Please don't let that be true.

I was once a member of a community group,and we were planning a social event as a fund raiser dinner with music, a comic, and a magician. I suggested the event be called 'Rhythm 'n Blues Saturday Nite.' A minister who had just joined loftily advised the name be changed the people would misled because the event was on Friday.

Puhleeze!!!!

Don't let it be true.

PEACE

Jim Chester

Anyway... Another funny thing about JWC's reasoning is it own Internal Contradiction. Often he proclaims (or at least used to):
"WE ARE WHO WE SAY WE ARE"
.... as if to say that we define ourselves and give meaning to whatever it is that concerns and pertains to us.---Nmaginate

I still do!! Check out my signature. I try to always keep it there.

As if to say???

We do Nmaginate. We do!!

I am thoroughly surprised. I have always had a stronger perception of your understanding of yourself. I have NEVER thought you were of such poor self-esteem as to think you did not define yourself.

Surely you don't really believe that.

That is to say that JWC's idea is way too swayed by the conception of others. The idea that our naming-term must have "parity" with other (read White) "Americans" is a violation of his principle in and of itself.

Clearly... when we deemed ourselves African-Americans, to JWC, "We Weren't Who We Said We Were"... We had to make sure the term didn't receive any rejections from others and in some way mimick others.

WOW!! We are so independent!---Nmaginate

[I]Nope. Your're wrong again Nmaginate. You have as much right to be who you say you are. Unlike you, however, I DON'T insist you accept my definition of myself for application to you.

My call stands.

You are who you say you are.

But then, considering your reference to parity it becomes more clear.

By he way, now tht you mention it, what is your understanding, or explanation of parity?[I]

PEACE

Jim Chester

What I find rather curious is how somebody can at the same time be so enthusiastic with misusing the name of that continent called America, not once, but twice, in self identification, while at the same time be so eager to get all stressed out over political boundries within America, lines that only serve to separate Americans from ourselves.

I can always count on JWC to be the first to respond to any thread that involves intra-American boundries, especially those that separate us from our fellow Americans to the south.---ricardomath

ricardomath!!!

Not you too!!!

Wake up! Wake up!!

You have a PhD!!!

What's this about??

Fitting in?????????

Woooooow!!

Daaaamn!!

PEACE

Jim Chester

JWC,

Come on now...

I'm not the one who brought up the fact that America is a continent, and not a country, even though you know that it is a pet peeve of mine. I hold my tounge quite a bit on that one.

I just piled on after Nmag brought it up.



After all, I only have so much will power...

You know from our previous conversations that I find your attitudes towards immigration and immigrants a bit puzzling, and at times, offensive. It's often not so much your views, which, dispite my disagreement, are really pretty standard, but rather the vehemence with which you hold them. Amoung other things, I don't understand what your stake is in it.

BTW, I'm not sure how my PhD figures into anything. It's in mathematics, which is somewhat far removed from anything being discussed on this thread.

JWC,

Come on now...

I'm not the one who brought up the fact that America is a continent, and not a country, even though you know that it is a pet peeve of mine. I hold my tounge quite a bit on that one.

I just piled on after Nmag brought it up.



After all, I only have so much will power...

You know from our previous conversations that I find your attitudes towards immigration and immigrants a bit puzzling, and at times, offensive. It's often not so much your views, which, dispite my disagreement, are really pretty standard, but rather the vehemence with which you hold them. Amoung other things, I don't understand what your stake is in it.

BTW, I'm not sure how my PhD figures into anything. It's in mathematics, which is somewhat far removed from anything being discussed on this thread---ricardomath.

Your degree doesn't 'figure in.' I thought I would try something to shock you back into reality.

i didn't the know 'America is a continent' was a pet peeve of yours.

Surely you know the America, of which you have citizenship, is nation and not the continent.

I would certainly hope that is the case.

Don't let Nmaginate lead you into socio-geographical oblivion.

Cause he's not going. I think jivin' everybody.

Even his zeal isn't that blinding.

And...Yes, I know we differ on immigration.

But, you know I'm right.

PEACE

Jim Chester

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But, you know I'm right.

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Ricky...
JWC is the fifth WIGGLE!!